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post #301 of 676 Old 03-07-2012, 08:19 AM
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Then proceed to manually calibrate each speaker with a C Weighted Response using your SPL and an 83db Reference level ... and +3db over that for your sub

Hi Richard, sharing your expertise on this thread is much appreciated!
My query is what is the advanage to calibrating your speakers to 83db, as you mention above, over 75db?
cheers,
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post #302 of 676 Old 03-08-2012, 03:09 AM
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Some people do use 75db ... I have seen people discussing this in the Forum.

However, there are a couple of reasons for using 83db as a Reference Level.

* 83db is the reference level for most sound level mixing.

* I calibrate so that 83db is referenced to my AVR Volume Control set at - 0 -

* 83db reference level tends interact and fill the room better which serves to assure you get a more accurate reading.

* The accepted standard for Home Theater .... and what is used by both Dolby & DTS as a reference for setup & calibration, is 83db.


------------

See excerpt below from this link:

http://www.digido.com/level-practice...-k-system.html

------------

III. The Magic of "83" with Film Mixes

In the music world, everyone currently determines their own average record level, and adjusts their monitor accordingly. With no standard, subjective loudness varies from CD to CD in popular music as much as 10-12 dB, which is unacceptable by any professional standard. But in the film world, films are consistent from one to another, because the monitoring gain has been standardized. In 1983, as workshops chairman of the AES Convention, I invited Tomlinson Holman of Lucasfilm to demonstrate the sound techniques used in creating the Star Wars films. Dolby systems engineers labored for two days to calibrate the reproduction system in New York's flagship Ziegfeld theatre. Over 1000 convention attendees filled the theatre center section. At the end of the demonstration, Tom asked for a show of hands. "How many of you thought the sound was too loud?" About four hands were raised. "How many thought it was too soft?" No hands. "How many thought it was just right?" At least 996 audio engineers raised their hands.

This is an incredible testament to the effectiveness of the 83 dB SPL reference standard proposed by Dolby's Ioan Allen in the mid-70's, originally calibrated to a level of 0 VU for use with analog magnetic film. The choice of 83 dB SPL has stood the test of time, as it permits wide dynamic range recordings with little or no perceived system noise when recording to magnetic film or 20-bit digital. Dialogue, music and effects fall into a natural perspective with an excellent signal-to-noise ratio and headroom. A good film mix engineer can work without a meter and do it all by the monitor, using the meter simply as a guide. In fact, working with a fixed monitor gain is liberating, not limiting. When digital technology reached the large theatre, the SMPTE attached the SPL calibration to a point below full scale digital. When we converted to digital technology, the VU meter was rapidly replaced by the peak program meter.

When AC-3 and DTS became available for home theatre, many authorities recommended lowering the monitor gain by 6 dB because a typical home listening room does not accomodate high SPLs and wide dynamic range. If a DVD contains the wide range theatre mix, many home listeners complain that "this DVD is too loud", or "I lose the dialogue when I turn the volume down so that the effects don't blast." With reduced monitor gain, the soft passages become too soft. For such listeners, the dynamic range may have to be reduced by 6 dB (6 dB upward Compression, or dynamic range reduction) in order to use less monitor gain.
Metadata are coded data which contain information about signal dynamics and intended loudness; this will resolve the conflict between listeners who want the full theatrical experience and those who need to listen softly. But without metadata there are only two solutions: a) to compromise the audio soundtrack by compressing it, or better, b) use an optional compressor for the home system. With the later approach the source audio is uncompromised.


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Originally Posted by Htdude14 View Post

Hi Richard, sharing your expertise on this thread is much appreciated!
My query is what is the advanage to calibrating your speakers to 83db, as you mention above, over 75db?
cheers,


Richard J. Casey



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post #303 of 676 Old 03-08-2012, 07:00 AM
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III. The Magic of "83" with Film Mixes

In 1983, as workshops chairman of the AES Convention, I invited Tomlinson Holman of Lucasfilm to demonstrate the sound techniques used in creating the Star Wars films.

Now I understand Why "83db was decided as reference-->

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I tried the Rat Shack instead of Audyssey, my speakers do sound like they are Fuller (almost like a choke was removed).

I'm not happy with my Subs, Wife won the battle of placement-->

Mains (L_C_R) are 11.4' to sweet spot.

Subs are located: one on left side wall facing right wall, 9" out from side wall & 26" from front wall, 10.6' to my sweet spot.

One in right corner 9" from each corner & 12.4' to sweet spot facing left wall.

I have been approved () to move left sub to corner (table swap with sub) if I decide to relocate it.

Richard, what is your opinion, just live with what I have, place both in corners facing opposite walls or go with only one Sub (Can't relocate/replace/remove Wife!!)?

HH
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post #304 of 676 Old 03-08-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RBFilms View Post

A download firing sub is good...!!

The idea behind facing the sib away from you is to reduce any direct radiating sound about the crossover pint from reaching your ear. That will muddy your midrange and high frequencies a great deal and make your bass sound less defined as well.

Placing the front driver of your sub less than 1" on the "circle arc" around your listening position will immediately focus the sub causing it to "snap" in to place and become "one with the room" and there will be no localization of the sub as a source ... meaning it couples to the system and the room in a way that makes it fill the room with bass.

Moving it outside this position immediately causes the sub to lose sync with your system and it no longer functions in harmony with your mains.

See attached image and let me know if that helps.

Yes, the picture did help. I calibrated my Denon/Klipsch 5.1 setup today using both my old trusty Radio Shack analog meter plus I also discovered that there was an Apple app for my iPhone named SPL Pro (~$9) created by Studio Six Digital (the links are below). For whatever reason (I am no expert) the SPL Pro was more sensitive than the RS meter by at least 1 dB, so while I looked at both while testing I favored the SPL Pro reading for my settings. The Denon master volume was set to -20 dB during the calibration and I set the speaker distances to the prime listening position (don't know if that was right or not). The front/center/left speakers only need to be boosted by 7 dB to achieve 83 dB on the meter. I was little surprised that the two rear speakers which were closest of all had to be boosted by 9 dB to get to the magical 83 dB, also I pointed the meters at the surround speakers from the listening position (again don't know if that was right). When I got around to the subwoofer calibration I noticed that the spread between the two meters had increased to 4 dB with the SPL Pro being the more sensitive. So all the speakers are balanced to 83 dB and the system sounds good although I haven't really tested everything. I see in your previous post that you set your AVR master volume to 0 to calibrate but with my Denon and the WOW BD playing that would have been excruciatingly loud for me. I am willing to redo my calibration if you notice something I did wrong. Thanks for your input.

http://www.studiosixdigital.com/spl.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k40gh...ayer_embedded#!

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post #305 of 676 Old 03-08-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post


Yes, the picture did help. I calibrated my Denon/Klipsch 5.1 setup today using both my old trusty Radio Shack analog meter plus I also discovered that there was an Apple app for my iPhone named SPL Pro (~$9) created by Studio Six Digital (the links are below). For whatever reason (I am no expert) the SPL Pro was more sensitive than the RS meter by at least 1 dB, so while I looked at both while testing I favored the SPL Pro reading for my settings. The Denon master volume was set to -20 dB during the calibration and I set the speaker distances to the prime listening position (don't know if that was right or not). The front/center/left speakers only need to be boosted by 7 dB to achieve 83 dB on the meter. I was little surprised that the two rear speakers which were closest of all had to be boosted by 9 dB to get to the magical 83 dB, also I pointed the meters at the surround speakers from the listening position (again don't know if that was right). When I got around to the subwoofer calibration I noticed that the spread between the two meters had increased to 4 dB with the SPL Pro being the more sensitive. So all the speakers are balanced to 83 dB and the system sounds good although I haven't really tested everything. I see in your previous post that you set your AVR master volume to 0 to calibrate but with my Denon and the WOW BD playing that would have been excruciatingly loud for me. I am willing to redo my calibration if you notice something I did wrong. Thanks for your input.

http://www.studiosixdigital.com/spl.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k40gh...ayer_embedded#!

I remember having a free app like that; would that one work too? Cant remember the name though.
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See attached image and let me know if that helps.

Hello Richard. I saw your post and diagram and am including a crude picture of my room and speaker layout. The front mains are not exactly as shown but angled towards the two "chair" icons in the picture, as are the rear/side speakers which are bi polar satellite towers. And, I have two BIC 10" sub woofers behind the front Left and Right speakers as shown in the diagram.

My question is: I have the 2 subs facing outwards since they are front firing, in attempt to "delocalize" any direct low frequncy beaming. Is this correct? It seems to work better than facing them forward or, worse, towards the rear wall.
I have tried to get as close to 83db, but my room is "open" on the right side to a fairly good sized foyer, as well as to the back side of the chairs with about a 15" by 16" open area behind them. Any suggestions?
LL
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post #307 of 676 Old 03-08-2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Superman2 View Post

I remember having a free app like that; would that one work too? Cant remember the name though.

There is a free app named UE SPL that has gotten good reviews, but I haven't used it. Hopefully all of this app talk is not off-topic.

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post #308 of 676 Old 03-09-2012, 06:50 AM
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Correct...NO Audyssey at all ...

No worries...I was not referring to you or specifically to anyone else. The comment about being flamed is simply my standard disclaimer prior to offering and advice or recommendations. I am not here to prove anything ... I just like to share what I know based on real world experiences if the topic is one I am familiar with.

Like most people, I hate looking like an idiot so I pretty much avoid talking about anything that I am not 1,000% confident is true and demonstrable.


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RBFilms,

Many thanks for your response. In no way did my I intend to question your years of experience and advice on these forums. I realize now that my question could be interpreted differently depending on how it is read and who is reading it.

In all honesty, everything I've read up until now regarding Audyssey, states to use it over manual SPL calibration. I was simply a little thrown off by your statement.

That being said, I will definitely try a manual calibration. In doing so, I assume Audyssey will not be run at all, correct?


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post #309 of 676 Old 03-09-2012, 08:10 AM
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"like a choke was removed"

That is a very good and accurate analogy... I have to remember that one..

Well, getting rid of the wife which could be complicated, messy, and/or expensive depending on your approach...

There is nothing wrong with trying a test...your wife should not object to a half day of testing and tweaking in your home theater.

Turn off all Auto Setup features such as Audyssey.

Try moving both of your subwoofers so they face 90 degrees away from your listening position ... you do NOT want any direct radiating sound reaching your listening position. If you have a downward firing sub, this is not necessary.

Then, position the Subwoofer so they each 11'4" from your listening position ..... same as you main speakers and surrounds. Where you put the Subwoofers makes no difference ... as long as you are anywhere on the "ARC" of the circle as shown in the diagram I posted.

If you have a downward firing subwoofer, place a marker on the top dead center of the cabinet and use that as your measuring point for reference.

If you have a front firing subwoofer, measure to the front center of the driver if you can. In my case, I cannot measure from the listening position to the front center of the sub driver as it points to the outside right side ... away from me. I cannot see the driver from my listening position. In this case, place a marker at the top front center edge of the cabinet and measure from there. The front top center edge of the cabinet is basically the same distance as the front of you Subwoofer driver. That will work as your reference.

Once all speakers are set to equal distances, set all your delays to 11'4" in your AVR.

Then, make sure your AVR is set to the proper configuration (5.1, 7.1, etc.) ... and set your speakers to LARGE ... assuming they can go down to 80hz more or less.

Then, set your AVD Crossover point to 80hz.

Once all this is done, if you have an SPL Meter, use the reference tones on Disney WOW or some other calibration disc to set all Main & Surround Speakers to 83db +/- 0.5db reference level.

The set your sub +3db hotter (86db) that the Main and Surround Speakers.

Take your time and check it twice to be sure it is all done correctly.

Ideally, you would also want to use air dried maple wood bases with brass footers to isolate the subs as well as brass footers for all of your gear with an air dried maple wood equipment stand for best results.

However, assuming that is not the case, proceed to the next step which is adjusting your LFE Levels. Turn one Subwoofer off and do one sub at a time. Once one is done, turn that one off and do the other. Then turn them both on and you may find you need to turn down the LFE level a bit ... or not.

* Adjust your LFE Level on your sub ... less is more ... always. I use a Reference 5.1 MUSIC DISC to set the sub level.

* I listen for accurate, tight, defined, crisp note accurate bass and a proper blend and smooth transition from low to mid to high frequencies. Despite common misbelief, a properly dialed-in sub will greatly improve mid and high frequency response.

* Listen for natural and accurate tonal balance ... smooth transitions ... and any indication that your midrange and highs are being impacted.

* Listen and turn down your LFE Level if the bass becomes even slightly muddy, boomy, or in any way overly present, dominant or localized. You do not want this.

* When your LFE Level is correct, you will have a seamless transition from low to mid to high frequencies.

Last but not least, take a few reference BD Discs with Uncompressed 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks or at the very least DTS-HD-MA Lossless Audio tracks.

Most important of all ... use Blu-ray Discs you are very familiar with.

A few I use are:

* House of the Flying Daggers (Drum Scene)
* Dances WIth Wolves
* Jeff Beck, Live at Ronnie Scotts
* Disney WOW

and numerous others...

Listen for the GOOD things that should now be evident compared to your previous setup ... like the following:

* Sub "disappears" in the room ... becomes one with the room so to speak. You cannot localize it or identify its position in the room. Bass should just fill the space and come from everywhere.

* Bass is crisp, tight, transient and clean .... not boomy, blooming, poorly defined, flabby, tubby, or overly present or dominant.

* There is a fuller, more rounded, overall better balanced sound with greater detail, definition and imaging.

* You notice an improved soundstage with easily identified subtle details and better definition across the range ... especially in the bass to mid-bass and lower midrange areas.

* More natural vocals and overall organic sound quality that is more true to life verses reproduced.

If you decide to try this, please let me know what happens...


Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerHarley View Post

Now I understand Why "83db was decided as reference-->

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I tried the Rat Shack instead of Audyssey, my speakers do sound like they are Fuller (almost like a choke was removed).

I'm not happy with my Subs, Wife won the battle of placement-->

Mains (L_C_R) are 11.4' to sweet spot.

Subs are located: one on left side wall facing right wall, 9" out from side wall & 26" from front wall, 10.6' to my sweet spot.

One in right corner 9" from each corner & 12.4' to sweet spot facing left wall.

I have been approved () to move left sub to corner (table swap with sub) if I decide to relocate it.

Richard, what is your opinion, just live with what I have, place both in corners facing opposite walls or go with only one Sub (Can't relocate/replace/remove Wife!!)?

HH

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post #310 of 676 Old 03-09-2012, 08:30 AM
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Yes, facing away is best ... but your subs and rear surround are not on the ideal location for optimal performance.


See the very crude mockup I uploaded with some ideas for your room.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Hello Richard. I saw your post and diagram and am including a crude picture of my room and speaker layout. The front mains are not exactly as shown but angled towards the two "chair" icons in the picture, as are the rear/side speakers which are bi polar satellite towers. And, I have two BIC 10" sub woofers behind the front Left and Right speakers as shown in the diagram.

My question is: I have the 2 subs facing outwards since they are front firing, in attempt to "delocalize" any direct low frequncy beaming. Is this correct? It seems to work better than facing them forward or, worse, towards the rear wall.
I have tried to get as close to 83db, but my room is "open" on the right side to a fairly good sized foyer, as well as to the back side of the chairs with about a 15" by 16" open area behind them. Any suggestions?


LL

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post #311 of 676 Old 03-09-2012, 08:45 AM
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RBFilms,

I followed your advise in turning the sub sideways and it work out great. My Anthem MRX500 likes it that way lol when using ARC. Thanks again for your help.

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post #312 of 676 Old 03-09-2012, 10:30 AM
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Can anyone comment on the effectiveness of the WOW disc on a Sharp 735 please? It has the extra yellow pixal and I'm unsure if this will effect anything during calibration. I've never used a calibration disc before and thus have never calibrated a HDTV with a yellow pixal added. Just purchased the BD version today from amazon, should be able to play with it next week sometime. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
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I am not familiar with this HDTV Panel. However, I can pass along a solid recommendation based on advice from several ISF Techs.

I believe you can turn off the yellow pixel this set if I am not mistaken. This is highly recommended.

You also want to set the right mode and turn off auto yuck and image enhancement features for best results.


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Originally Posted by electronleaker View Post

Can anyone comment on the effectiveness of the WOW disc on a Sharp 735 please? It has the extra yellow pixal and I'm unsure if this will effect anything during calibration. I've never used a calibration disc before and thus have never calibrated a HDTV with a yellow pixal added. Just purchased the BD version today from amazon, should be able to play with it next week sometime. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.


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post #314 of 676 Old 03-10-2012, 03:26 AM
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Glad to hear that helped...if you follow the rest of the tweaks I described it will get even better...)


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Originally Posted by jsil View Post

RBFilms,

I followed your advise in turning the sub sideways and it work out great. My Anthem MRX500 likes it that way lol when using ARC. Thanks again for your help.


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post #315 of 676 Old 03-10-2012, 04:50 AM
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"Once all this is done, if you have an SPL Meter, use the reference tones on Disney WOW or some other calibration disc to set all Main & Surround Speakers to 83db +/- 0.5db reference level.

The set your sub +3db hotter (86db) that the Main and Surround Speakers."


when doing this process, where do you set your main volume knob before setting the trim levels on the individual speakers? thanks
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I use O DB on my AVR .... that is what I use as my Home Theater reference level ... I also defeat the ability to go beyond that level .... so for me 0 DB is the maximum for my system. I really have no need to listen to it louder than that ... i need my hearing for my job...


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"Once all this is done, if you have an SPL Meter, use the reference tones on Disney WOW or some other calibration disc to set all Main & Surround Speakers to 83db +/- 0.5db reference level.

The set your sub +3db hotter (86db) that the Main and Surround Speakers."


when doing this process, where do you set your main volume knob before setting the trim levels on the individual speakers? thanks


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post #317 of 676 Old 03-11-2012, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1forsnow View Post

"Once all this is done, if you have an SPL Meter, use the reference tones on Disney WOW or some other calibration disc to set all Main & Surround Speakers to 83db +/- 0.5db reference level.

The set your sub +3db hotter (86db) that the Main and Surround Speakers."


when doing this process, where do you set your main volume knob before setting the trim levels on the individual speakers? thanks

I should think that the easiest would be to set the main volume so that your main speakers are at 83 db. Then, leaving the main volume set at that point (may want to write it down for future reference), set all the other speakers to that sound level using their individual volume control.

edit: you want to sit at your normal listening position and hold the meter in front of you (fairly close obviously) and calibrate to 83 db for each individual speaker. Don't point the meter to each speaker, just hold it with the mic part pointing up. When you watch movies, you are watching the screen, not the speakers.
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post #318 of 676 Old 03-11-2012, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by colin.p View Post

edit: you want to sit at your normal listening position and hold the meter in front of you (fairly close obviously) and calibrate to 83 db for each individual speaker. Don't point the meter to each speaker, just hold it with the mic part pointing up. When you watch movies, you are watching the screen, not the speakers.

I use a tripod, much easier than holding it and more accurate,,IMO.

HH
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post #319 of 676 Old 03-12-2012, 02:07 AM
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I've been shopping online for a blu-ray copy and noticed that there's a new 2012 edition releasing next month...

Any idea if there's any difference? Perhaps just the omission of the 2nd "Visions: Inspired by Nature" disc?
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There is no difference...we just eliminated VISIONS and the 1 disc is available now on Amazon if you want it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kun1he2 View Post

I've been shopping online for a blu-ray copy and noticed that there's a new 2012 edition releasing next month...

Any idea if there's any difference? Perhaps just the omission of the 2nd "Visions: Inspired by Nature" disc?


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post #321 of 676 Old 03-12-2012, 06:25 AM
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I use a Tripod as well ... with the MIC pointing straight up at the same height as ear level .... works great.

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Originally Posted by HuskerHarley View Post

I use a tripod, much easier than holding it and more accurate,,IMO.

HH


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post #322 of 676 Old 03-12-2012, 08:20 AM
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Great advise and thanks for the explanations Richard! I can honestly say my system sounds better today after putting it to use!
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post #323 of 676 Old 03-12-2012, 12:05 PM
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Fantastic to hear this...

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Originally Posted by Htdude14 View Post

Great advise and thanks for the explanations Richard! I can honestly say my system sounds better today after putting it to use!


Richard J. Casey



Disney WOW - World of Wonder


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post #324 of 676 Old 03-13-2012, 09:25 AM
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Trying to calibrate and have white clipping with the Panasonic 7000u.
So Im using the Disney Wow disc to try to finally calibrate this projector. I've started out using the simple options. But when I go to adjust the contrast it shows white clipping and it can't be resolved. Basically on the right side of. The screen you are supposed to see two or three columns of different shades of white, but on my system there are no columns, it's too white and no matter the adjust I make I cannot get the column to appear. Any thoughts? Using a PS3 and a HDMI switcher from mono price.
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post #325 of 676 Old 03-13-2012, 02:12 PM
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I just turned off Audyssey, set my master volume to 0db and calibrated my speakers with an SPL to 83db.

What a difference!!!!

I didn't realize how much Audyssey did to affect the sound in my living room. It's going to take some getting used to and a bit more critical listening, but so far everything seems fuller and more natural.

I should point out that I have yet to turn my sub 90 degrees. It is an older DCM sub, with dual woofers both direct and downward firing. So I'm going to play with location when I have a bit more time.

I should have done this sooner and will suggest it to family and friends.


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post #326 of 676 Old 03-14-2012, 08:23 AM
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Yes, start by setting up your PS# using the settings in this link:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10022389-1.html

Let me know if that helps...

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithj101 View Post

Trying to calibrate and have white clipping with the Panasonic 7000u.
So Im using the Disney Wow disc to try to finally calibrate this projector. I've started out using the simple options. But when I go to adjust the contrast it shows white clipping and it can't be resolved. Basically on the right side of. The screen you are supposed to see two or three columns of different shades of white, but on my system there are no columns, it's too white and no matter the adjust I make I cannot get the column to appear. Any thoughts? Using a PS3 and a HDMI switcher from mono price.


Richard J. Casey



Disney WOW - World of Wonder


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post #327 of 676 Old 03-14-2012, 08:25 AM
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Very happy to hear this..!!

Every tweak I have described makes a difference...I would not suggest them if I had not tried and proven to myself and many others ... many times over ... that these tweaks work.

I am very happy to hear your tried this and it works for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dharel View Post

I just turned off Audyssey, set my master volume to 0db and calibrated my speakers with an SPL to 83db.

What a difference!!!!

I didn't realize how much Audyssey did to affect the sound in my living room. It's going to take some getting used to and a bit more critical listening, but so far everything seems fuller and more natural.

I should point out that I have yet to turn my sub 90 degrees. It is an older DCM sub, with dual woofers both direct and downward firing. So I'm going to play with location when I have a bit more time.

I should have done this sooner and will suggest it to family and friends.


Richard J. Casey



Disney WOW - World of Wonder


Producers Guild of America, New Media Council
(BD Industry Insider)
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post #328 of 676 Old 03-14-2012, 03:17 PM
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I also can not get my PS3 to play Disney WOW or even recognize that it exists. Never had a problem with any any other discs. The Visions disc plays just fine. I am on my 2nd disc now (Disney sent me a replacement which I got yesterday, that one won't load either). This is frustrating. Any solutions out there?
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post #329 of 676 Old 03-14-2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toeknail View Post

I also can not get my PS3 to play Disney WOW or even recognize that it exists. Never had a problem with any any other discs. The Visions disc plays just fine. I am on my 2nd disc now (Disney sent me a replacement which I got yesterday, that one won't load either). This is frustrating. Any solutions out there?

Take it to a local retailer or friend's house and see if it plays on their machine (PS3 or other device). I suspect your laser is out of alignment on your PS3.

David Vaughn

Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer

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post #330 of 676 Old 03-14-2012, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Take it to a local retailer or friend's house and see if it plays on their machine (PS3 or other device). I suspect your laser is out of alignment on your PS3.

Thanks. If the laser is out of alignment, why would every other blu ray, dvd or PS3 game play ok? I understand that the Disney WOW disc has a ton of data on it, but don't the PS3 games also (like Modern Warfare 3 or Battlefield Earth)?
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