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post #271 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

If you look at a typical unfiltered track, the effects wont ALL just stop and fall off a cliff at any one point (~30hz as the case is here with STID) for the entire film........it does not naturally happen that way. Again, click the link I provided and spend some time over there and you will get a better understanding. Why the filter is there though is anyone's guess and there is of course a reason for it, it would just be great to get some insight as to why. The guys over on DB think it's a loudness wars type thing, maybe it was to cater to the common commercial theater which doesn't have good extension anyway so why leave in all that great LFE, etc.......it's all speculation until we can hear from someone close to the project.

I understand things quite clearly, thanks. I believe it is YOU who misunderstands.

I'm asking for evidence yielding a distinction between the master and the BD...not for what anyone believes to be "natural" in a hollywood film soundtrack. Whether they chose to "filter" something at the source (which would then be carried over to any other form of playback sys, like blu ray, of course) is immaterial to the contention.

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post #272 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

That is the exact problem James. The experience is not what it could and should be when a track looses it's balls down low. And you don't need a super sub setup to notice when this happens. The specs of my subs in todays world for example are nothing special (still nice subs though), but I could immediately tell a difference with the last track this happened to, The Hobbit as the low end was VERY unconvincing relative to the on screen action which took me out of the film to some degree. Same thing with The Avengers where the obvious lopped off low end relative to the on screen action lacked that full conviction vs TIH for example which is a natural comparison for obvious reasons. When a track looses it's nuts, it sounds and feels incomplete relative to tracks that don't have missing lopped off extension.
Transf 3 is not filtered to my eyes as there is still some solid content below 20hz and does not have a total drop off the cliff response like ID, Avengers, etc........I would ask over there though and get their opinion.

Again, you fail to realize the point...and I hedged against your very contention right within my post (regarding soundtracks still being A level experiences- bass and extension included- without sub 20hz content). And while I appreciate the sophisticated "nuts" and "balls" commentary, I'm still waiting on the evidence that any of these BD tracks differ from their studio masters.

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post #273 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 08:04 AM
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and by the way...took this in Wednesday night at my outdoor theater and it's been the first of thirty films that had my neighbor- who lives 160ft away and has two rows of 40 ft pine trees between us- come over and tell me he could "feel the bass at his house". No bs. I was embarrassed.

Flick was great, sound and vision was top notch. Nice one, Ralph.

FWIW.

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post #274 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

This is not amp clipping, but clipping burned into the track. While easier to hear at higher volumes, you can hear it at lower volumes as well if your sensitive to the issue and your speakers are revealing. I only caught it a few times after I quit actively trying to hear it, but again I am not sensitive to it in general.



Again I'm wondering if some bad discs were distributed, but I will listen very closely over the weekend. If one chapter in the movie stands out in your mind where the clipping is prevalent this would help smile.gif
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post #275 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 08:10 AM
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Id like to comment. Im a frequenter over at www.film-tech.com, which is a forum for projectionists, cinema owners, and those in the film business such as sound editors. They speak at links on how for the Blu-Ray release of many films they change the mix from the commercial DCP mix to a near-field "home theater" mix. They speak of putting 20hz filters on the mix all the time, meaning all ULF isn't on the track anymore. The original mix for the cinema is mixed on a small but typical commercial cinema setup. The near-field mix is mixed on small monitors. This has been going on for years now. Not all studios do it but many do.

And now, apparently, 30-40 hz jobs. smile.gif

The problem I have with all of this speculation is that 99% of it has never been backed with evidence. We had 3 guys working at 3 major studios on a thread say they NEVER do it, so who are we to believe? Nearfield mixes are something different, altogether, and my understanding is that even they do not occur nearly as often as people think they do.

It's like "God theory" - all the reasoning makes sense when you're dealing with something that can fill in all of the gaps.

But while relevant to this disc/movie, this is a bit OT on the whole so I'll digress.


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post #276 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I understand things quite clearly, thanks. I believe it is YOU who misunderstands.

I'm asking for evidence yielding a distinction between the master and the BD...not for what anyone believes to be "natural" in a hollywood film soundtrack. Whether they chose to "filter" something at the source (which would then be carried over to any other form of playback sys, like blu ray, of course) is immaterial to the contention.

James

Maybe you did not read my post closely. As I mentioned, we don't know for sure if it was done for the master OR just the home release. As I have mentioned every time this happens, I would love to know as well James! I would love to hear some insight into this as to when it happens and why exactly and until then it is all speculation.

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post #277 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

And now, apparently, 30-40 hz jobs. smile.gif

The problem I have with all of this speculation is that 99% of it has never been backed with evidence. We had 3 guys working at 3 major studios on a thread say they NEVER do it, so who are we to believe? Nearfield mixes are something different, altogether, and my understanding is that even they do not occur nearly as often as people think they do.

It's like "God theory" - all the reasoning makes sense when you're dealing with something that can fill in all of the gaps.

But while relevant to this disc/movie, this is a bit OT on the whole so I'll digress.


James

For arguments sake, let's say you are right and a track like this and Avengers just drops off at 30hz with no deliberate filter. Even in this scenario, the point still stands that extension is lacking when compared to not only the first film, but the better and best full bandwidth tracks on blu.

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post #278 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 08:21 AM
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I will agree that this soundtrack is not like the soundtrack from Skyfall which I think may be the best soundtrack of 2013 IMO. But it's not bad.
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post #279 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Again I'm wondering if some bad discs were distributed, but I will listen very closely over the weekend. If one chapter in the movie stands out in your mind where the clipping is prevalent this would help smile.gif

Highly unlikely. More likely some are just more sensitive to the issues for all the reasons we have been discussing vs others which is why some notice and it bothers them and some don't and say "what issue"? We see this all the time with various A/V and/or hardware anomalies like DNR, flicker, ghosting, clipping, weak extension (for whatever reason), vertical banding (with the older LCD projectors), etc, etc.....
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post #280 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

For arguments sake, let's say you are right and a track like this and Avengers just drops off at 30hz with no deliberate filter. Even in this scenario, the point still stands that extension is lacking when compared to not only the first film, but the better and best full bandwidth tracks on blu.

Yes no one would argue with that...I'm just looking for some truth/verification is all, rather than that of some who just seem to substitute "there's really not terrifically deep bass extension in the movie" with "there has to be something else going on, here".

Have a great weekend!

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post #281 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 08:46 AM
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The strange thing is there is no middle ground here, when it comes to the SQ. Either people thought it was very good or pretty bad, with the exception of Mr Toe who thought it was pretty good. I'm mot picking on anyone and like mastermaybe I believe there is definitely something going on here. Agreed it was loud but IMO done pretty well, perfect no. Now I thought Skyfall may have been the best soundtrack of the year and I've heard others say it wasn't that good. When glass broke in some of the scenes I could almost hear each individual piece of glass break separately and float in the air in front of me and then fall to the floor. Good speakers, preamp and amp? Yes but not the best, it was just a great soundtrack.
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post #282 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

The strange thing is there is no middle ground here, when it comes to the SQ. Either people thought it was very good or pretty bad, with the exception of Mr Toe who thought it was pretty good. I'm mot picking on anyone and like mastermaybe I believe there is definitely something going on here. Agreed it was loud but IMO done pretty well, perfect no.

To me it is not really strange considering all the variables and considering just how subjective audio is from one person to another. What constitutes "good" audio from a mix/recording standpoint from one person to the next can be incredibly subjective no matter if it lines up with what is more technically correct or not. You see it more with live concert recordings it seems as it is not unusual to get an extreme range of opinion on the sound/mix of any given show. Rush Snakes and Arrows is a great example as to my ears this "let's try to recreate being at the actual show hall reverb and all" is painful to listen to and I cant stand this mix/recording as I am a direct off the soundboard guy with minimal addition, but I have read comments from many others claiming It to be one of the best mixes/recordings on blu.

EDIT: Just noticed Nube in post 1313 in the DB thread posted an update as far as the clipping since you were looking for a precise example. Apparently the 6:00 mark is a good example and most action scenes in the film are similar as far as the center channel and LFE channel. I noticed this harshness quite a few times throughout the film as I mentioned a few posts up.

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post #283 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 09:35 AM
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Skyfall is another example where I find the mix is not dynamic and suffers from compression for the sake of being loud. I understand why some feel it sounds more exciting but for me it reeks of limiting.
-By the way, Casino Royale apparently has a slightly more dynamic mix on the disc included in the uber Bond BR set.

In regards to Toe's concert example, I find Depeche Mode's earlier concert videos to have superior sound quality whereas the later ones sound rubbish. Devotional sounds fantastic to me whilst Touring the Angel is wretched.

The 2009 mix completely disproves, along with any other well mixed dynamic tracks, the necessity to abuse compression and limiting as heard hear. Yes, it has been done better than worse examples but that is a nonsensical rationalization to justify unnecessary compromised sound quality and fidelity; as well unnecessarily setting the bar rather low.

Wherever the decisions were made that lead to the final home mix I do not find the results justified or particularly praise worthy.

On whether this is effectively the original mix I do not know and I cannot claim with great certainty my recollection of seeing it in the theater is accurate but I vaguely recall it sounding a bit better with deeper bass.

Either way the final result leaves me unimpressed whereas the 09 film mix I enjoy more due to the virtues of being more dynamic and deeper fuller bass.

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post #284 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I expect as much from you. Way to twist the point I was trying to get across. rolleyes.gif

I'll go ahead and dumb it down for you.

It has clearly been shown that there is clipping in this soundtrack. The soundtrack exhibited harshness that I have not heard in other movies that were as dynamic or more so. When comparing whether or not a movie is reference material or not; don't you think the equipment would have a large relevance as to the outcome? This had nothing to do with Ralphs review, but merely questioning those who said it was a reference material track.

1. Have we met?

2. Thank you, wise one. Third grade version next time, please.

3. Hmm. Could that be intentional? Of course not, no one would intentionally mix it that way. No one would intentionally include too much lens flare, either.

4. Yes, my K-Mart blue light special home cinema probably can't reproduce distortion. Oh wait, it only produces distortion, so that's why I can't tell the difference.

5. I'm confused? Your questioning has nothing to do with Ralph's review which states, "Films like this are tailor made for lossless audio’s higher fidelity and Paramount’s 7.1 Dolby TrueHD surround mix doesn’t disappoint. This reference quality soundtrack bristles with active surround sound, extended dynamic range, and punctuated, room energizing bass that makes for an involving home theater experience." Sorry, missed the subtlety there.

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post #285 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings,

I have allowed discussion regarding any issues with the track's fidelity to continue as I think it is relevant in the context of the review to a point. For those that have stated their opinion on either side let's move on as it appears as though there is more rehashing occurring than pertinent additional content. What I don't want to see are personal attacks as that will be cause for censure.

My opinion on the matter is clear. I don't find this to be a black & white area as there are indeed variables at work. As I said before my advice is to try and go into the viewing of the presentation with an open mind and see what the overall experience yields.


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post #286 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Skyfall is another example where I find the mix is not dynamic and suffers from compression for the sake of being loud. I understand why some feel it sounds more exciting but for me it reeks of limiting.
-By the way, Casino Royale apparently has a slightly more dynamic mix on the disc included in the uber Bond BR set.

In regards to Toe's concert example, I find Depeche Mode's earlier concert videos to have superior sound quality whereas the later ones sound rubbish. Devotional sounds fantastic to me whilst Touring the Angel is wretched.

The 2009 mix completely disproves, along with any other well mixed dynamic tracks, the necessity to abuse compression and limiting as heard hear. Yes, it has been done better than worse examples but that is a nonsensical rationalization to justify unnecessary compromised sound quality and fidelity; as well unnecessarily setting the bar rather low.

Wherever the decisions were made that lead to the final home mix I do not find the results justified or particularly praise worthy.

On whether this is effectively the original mix I do not know and I cannot claim with great certainty my recollection of seeing it in the theater is accurate but I vaguely recall it sounding a bit better with deeper bass.

Either way the final result leaves me unimpressed whereas the 09 film mix I enjoy more due to the virtues of being more dynamic and deeper fuller bass.

Best Regards
KvE



So if Skywall wasn't reference what was in your opinion? If I remember correctly Ralph gave it a perfect audio score of 100. It was perfect running through my setup. Something is amiss here and we can't be this far apart. Honestly you are the second or third person that didn't like Skyfalls soundtrack that I know of on AVS.

Edit;
Ok did not see Ralph's request before posting this, and of course I'll comply. Hopefully I did not rock the boat too hard, and flame suit is now off smile.gif
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post #287 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

I have allowed discussion regarding any issues with the track's fidelity to continue as I think it is relevant in the context of the review to a point. For those that have stated their opinion on either side let's move on as it appears as though there is more rehashing occurring than pertinent additional content. What I don't want to see are personal attacks as that will be cause for censure.

My opinion on the matter is clear. I don't find this to be a black & white area as there are indeed variables at work. As I said before my advice is to try and go into the viewing of the presentation with an open mind and see what the overall experience yields.


Regards,

Thanks Ralph, sounds good. It is dropped! smile.gif


Planning on checking out the 3d version tonight which I am looking forward to. Just trying to figure out what other 3d film would make for a good double feature with it...........open to suggestions!

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post #288 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 11:27 AM
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Thanks Ralph, sounds good. It is dropped! smile.gif

Agreed. Thanks, Ralph, for your tolerance.

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post #289 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 11:31 AM
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1. Have we met?

Thankfully no. Your online rambling is plenty.
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2. Thank you, wise one. Third grade version next time, please.

Happy to oblige.
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3. Hmm. Could that be intentional? Of course not, no one would intentionally mix it that way. No one would intentionally include too much lens flare, either.

No one intentionally filters the low end either. It's a mystery.
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4. Yes, my K-Mart blue light special home cinema probably can't reproduce distortion. Oh wait, it only produces distortion, so that's why I can't tell the difference.

5. I'm confused? Your questioning has nothing to do with Ralph's review which states, "Films like this are tailor made for lossless audio’s higher fidelity and Paramount’s 7.1 Dolby TrueHD surround mix doesn’t disappoint. This reference quality soundtrack bristles with active surround sound, extended dynamic range, and punctuated, room energizing bass that makes for an involving home theater experience." Sorry, missed the subtlety there.

If you don't have subs capable of reproducing the lowest of lows, why wouldn't you think anything other than it had great bass. You confirmed my last statement even though you completely missed the point. You don't know what you're missing cause you've never heard it. I have subs capable of single digits, and I know when a soundtrack has been neutered. Does that mean it wasn't a great soundtrack, no. It does mean to me that it wasn't reference.

We can go round and round about this. You obviously feel it was reference so great. I personally am not losing any sleep over the fact of whether it is or isn't. wink.gif

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post #290 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Planning on checking out the 3d version tonight which I am looking forward to. Just trying to figure out what other 3d film would make for a good double feature with it...........open to suggestions!

Greetings,

Todd, not sure what you have on hand or if you're looking for something new but here are a few decent options:

- Resident Evil Retribution 3D
- Prometheus 3D
- Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter 3D (outside of the genre boundaries but fun)
- GI Joe Retaliation 3D (Not a great movie but the sound is great and the 3D is decent)

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post #291 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 11:53 AM
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Ok I'm not familiar with the ps3 really. If there is a setup menu fur audio go into your settings and look for a secondary audio setting and if it's on turn it off. Or maybe the ps3 is not capable of TrueHD? Maybe Ralph or someone whose will comment on that.

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Try these two links syphon00
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=683326#post683326
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=40821

They may help.


thank you guys I will give it a shot

PS3 definitely supports all the HD audio formats, I have the slim one, I mean it's one of the selling points right? one of the first full featured bluray player :P
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post #292 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 12:20 PM
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thank you guys I will give it a shot

PS3 definitely supports all the HD audio formats, I have the slim one, I mean it's one of the selling points right? one of the first full featured bluray player :P



No problem and you'll figure it out.
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post #293 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

Todd, not sure what you have on hand or if you're looking for something new but here are a few decent options:

- Resident Evil Retribution 3D
- Prometheus 3D
- Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter 3D (outside of the genre boundaries but fun)
- GI Joe Retaliation 3D (Not a great movie but the sound is great and the 3D is decent)

Regards,

Thanks! I have the first two and really enjoy both. I will try and track down the 3d versions of VH and Retaliation (loved this audio track when I watched my 2d rental a few weeks back!).

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post #294 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 02:43 PM
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Again I'm wondering if some bad discs were distributed, but I will listen very closely over the weekend. If one chapter in the movie stands out in your mind where the clipping is prevalent this would help smile.gif

It seems to me IMHO that were some bad discs that were distributed. I've tried the Into the Darkness 2D BD on 2 separate bluray players and the results are the same. They did an aweful job at transferring the movie to BD. I'm happy to hear that others are having the same issue. I'm going to return my disc to bestbuy for an exchange and see what happens.

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post #295 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

No problem and you'll figure it out.

^ This. My PS3 plays the 7.1 track from Oblivion Flawlessly. The star trek disc has issues.

Television: Samsung 64' F8500
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Subwoofers: Dual Marty Subes w/SI 18" - DIY Build w/SI 15"
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post #296 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 09:04 PM
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Just watched the 2D version - video quality is superb, but audio is not really reference - sonics/dynamic range are compressed, hot, and I hear clipping authored into the tracks as well (most notably with the weaponized Starfleet ship is crashing into the water). NOT amp clipping, but authored.

I find the bass average at best, but that's partly because the overall soundtrack is so hot and screechy at times that you don't play at reference so its imbalanced. There's not much midrange punch either, and it's the first soundtrack that's bothered my ears a bit in a while...fatiguing somewhat.

I think the mix is sort of defective actually, or the soundtrack is equivalent to pop music production that's optimized for earbuds and compressed audio on your iPod, which generally sounds like crap on really good audio systems.

I'll try the 3D version this weekend and see if there's a difference.
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post #297 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I found myself enjoying this film. I think a lot can be attributed to the fact that while I grew up in the Star Trek era, I never found myself deeply rooted in it. I watched an episode here and there and understand the characters relationships in the newer film, but any departure from the original theme is lost on me. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. biggrin.gif

I will agree on many previous statements about the soundtrack. It is recorded crazy hot. But even stranger, it seems the upper frequencies were boosted, but not the lower. To be clear; I'm not referring to the filter talked about earlier either. The soundtrack just felt unbalanced to me, with a strong bias towards the upper frequencies. It was really shrill throughout a lot of scenes. Most every movie in my arsenal can be watched at -7 to -10 comfortably. Based on earlier warnings I started at -12. Less than 15 minutes into it I was down to -15. By the half way point I was at -16.5, and although that was a comfortable level to watch at; I felt I lost a lot of the low impact effect that I had at -12.

I can see someone easily damaging an inferior speaker trying to watch this pushing close to reference. I don't know if I heard my speakers straining, or my ears through some of it. cool.gif And for the record; I'm not running cheap speakers.

Agreed. Shrill and not balanced, and with clipping.
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post #298 of 569 Old 09-13-2013, 11:51 PM
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Is it possible that the various retailer-specific, normal, and 3D versus 2D editions of this film - complained about early in the thread as having different special features - might also have different sound mixes? I could imagine them putting a bass-shy mix onto an edition of the disk designed to be sold at the Walmarts of the world, which the studio considers more likely to be played on the speakers built into TVs or through home theater in a box systems, while editions aimed at Amazon's and Best Buy's customers might get a full-range mix.

That kind of market segementation might help reconcile the varying reactions of Ralph, who rated it as reference for both audio and video, and those who're saying it has clipping authored into the mix.

How about a very short post by each of the above commenters simply saying which retailer-specific edition or normal edition and 3D or 2D they've been talking about and whether they'd call that edition reference or not.

The results might be very interesting - or not.

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post #299 of 569 Old 09-14-2013, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

Is it possible that the various retailer-specific, normal, and 3D versus 2D editions of this film - complained about early in the thread as having different special features - might also have different sound mixes? I could imagine them putting a bass-shy mix onto an edition of the disk designed to be sold at the Walmarts of the world, which the studio considers more likely to be played on the speakers built into TVs or through home theater in a box systems, while editions aimed at Amazon's and Best Buy's customers might get a full-range mix.

That kind of market segementation might help reconcile the varying reactions of Ralph, who rated it as reference for both audio and video, and those who're saying it has clipping authored into the mix.

How about a very short post by each of the above commenters simply saying which retailer-specific edition or normal edition and 3D or 2D they've been talking about and whether they'd call that edition reference or not.

The results might be very interesting - or not.

Mine was from Amazon, definitely not reference.
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post #300 of 569 Old 09-14-2013, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Just watched the 2D version - video quality is superb, but audio is not really reference - sonics/dynamic range are compressed, hot, and I hear clipping authored into the tracks as well (most notably with the weaponized Starfleet ship is crashing into the water). NOT amp clipping, but authored.

I find the bass average at best, but that's partly because the overall soundtrack is so hot and screechy at times that you don't play at reference so its imbalanced. There's not much midrange punch either, and it's the first soundtrack that's bothered my ears a bit in a while...fatiguing somewhat.

I think the mix is sort of defective actually, or the soundtrack is equivalent to pop music production that's optimized for earbuds and compressed audio on your iPod, which generally sounds like crap on really good audio systems.

I'll try the 3D version this weekend and see if there's a difference.

I am no expert or professional when it comes to sound but I agree with your feedback and did not hear the midrange punch like I did in Dark Knight Rises. I respect the reviewer tremendously and always read his reviews but IMO, don't think the sound quality was a 100.

Also, realized the faces in 3d were somehow contorted in the conversion and did not seem natural.

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