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post #361 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post

7.1 though, I've not noticed this on 5.1.

I'll revisit Transformers Dark of the Moon...

And the Lumagen is not the issue - took that out of the chain



Most of my newer ones are in DTS. Let us know what happens smile.gif
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post #362 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 10:39 AM
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Ralph, did you listen straight 7.x or 9.x? If the latter, I wonder if the remapping changes conditions....
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post #363 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Dave, this makes four of us with the 8801 that thought it sounded good. I'm wondering if Audyssey's filters are doing something with this disc and we aren't hearing it like others. Or if some TrueHD decoders either on their BD players or AVR's are the source of the problem

Count me in...the sound was awesome smile.gif

(I am currently using Denon 4311 with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and with Audyssey ProKit I have done 32 measurements with both heights and wide in a 9.2 setup...
Bluray player is Cambridge 752BD)
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post #364 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 10:59 AM
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Interesting findings guys, thanks. Just wanted to pass this along from one of the guys who measured the clipping (Nube) on this track. After reading the results Thrang had with clipping bitstreaming, but no clipping letting the player decode and send LPCM, I asked in the bass thread if something in the signal chain COULD possibly be causing the measured clipping and this is a copy and paste of Nube's response...........


No, there is no chance.

All of the bass in movies measurements at data-bass.com are now done 100% in the digital domain, with no equipment necessary (other than a disc drive) to read or measure the raw data, bit-for-bit, off the disc. What's going on is not a measurement of the disc as played back through any signal chain (the old way) - it is the raw data directly off the disc, exactly as it's encoded and exactly at the same levels it's encoded on the disc (the new way). That's why there is no calibration required - all of it can be accomplished without any analog signal conversion, and not through any signal chain.



The clipping looks to be baked into the track, but whether or not each of us hear it will depend on all the variables we have talked about. I don't think there should be any question on IF there is clipping baked into this track or not though assuming you trust the source of measurement which I do.

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post #365 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Interesting findings guys, thanks. Just wanted to pass this along from one of the guys who measured the clipping (Nube) on this track. After reading the results Thrang had with clipping bitstreaming, but no clipping letting the player decode and send LPCM, I asked in the bass thread if something in the signal chain COULD possibly be causing the measured clipping and this is a copy and paste of Nube's response...........


No, there is no chance.

All of the bass in movies measurements at data-bass.com are now done 100% in the digital domain, with no equipment necessary (other than a disc drive) to read or measure the raw data, bit-for-bit, off the disc. What's going on is not a measurement of the disc as played back through any signal chain (the old way) - it is the raw data directly off the disc, exactly as it's encoded and exactly at the same levels it's encoded on the disc (the new way). That's why there is no calibration required - all of it can be accomplished without any analog signal conversion, and not through any signal chain.



The clipping looks to be baked into the track, but whether or not each of us hear it will depend on all the variables we have talked about. I don't think there should be any question on IF there is clipping baked into this track or not though assuming you trust the source of measurement which I do.



Very interesting thanks for that. I thought I was losing my marbles and just decided to throw in the towel and agree biggrin.gif
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post #366 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:17 AM
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So is he saying there should be no difference in the obvious clipping bitstreaming vs LPCM? That's not true. I've spent the better part of three hours on this, and can easily repeat both scenarios.

Now, as noted, even via LPCM, the soundtrack sounds way too hot, harsh, dirty and fatiguing...but the snapping that occurs when the Vengeance hits the water is only there via bitstream to my 151. It is NOT there via bitstream to my Integra. So the decoder is a factor to some degree here.

I played about 20 miinutes of Transformers Dark of the Moon, and my god, what a difference - rich, dynamic, free of fatigue (other than the stupidness of the movie :-)) - orders of magnitude better. I'm also playing it several db higher than I can STID (on the 151, reference is about 51 or 52% volume, and virtually all titles I can play at 45-51% free of fatigue. STID I stopped around 34% and even that hurt. So TDOTM is the same is all my other discs in terms of volume level, and, as a 7.1 True HD track, does not exhibit any of the issues on the STID.

It seems the high level of the recording on STID is negatively impacting bitstreaming decoding on my 151.

I'll see what other 7.1 TrueHD tracks I may have

STID almost seems like the hotter, brighter theatrical mix, not the mix for home cinema.
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post #367 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:24 AM
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There is a chance.

It's not as simple as measuring in the digital domain. The Dolby TrueHD format is encoded using channel extensions, so there is no "raw data, bit-for-bit off the disc" signal to measure as you claim.

Here's a relevant section from the Dolby TrueHD tech paper that explains how it isn't simply 7.1 discrete channels stored on disc:
Quote:
Channel Extensions, Downmixing, and Dolby TrueHD

One channel extension technique is the method by which MLP Lossless, Dolby TrueHD, and MPEG-2 LII deliver compatible downmixes for soundtracks with expanded channels. In these codecs, a 7.1-channel soundtrack is first downmixed to create a 5.1 mix, which is supplemented by a two-channel extension (which we'll call extension B). The 5.1 mix is then further downmixed to a two-channel stereo mix, and another supplemental stream is created that carries the 3.1-channel extension A. So the 7.1-channel program is delivered in three separate components: a two- channel mix, the 3.1-channel extension A, and the two-channel extension B.

The total payload is still 7.1 channels, with preconfigured subsets to create two-, 5.1-, and 7.1-channel presentations. If a listener desires a stereo presentation, the decoder plays only the two-channel downmix, thereby minimizing DSP resources for the simplest hardware productsa useful idea. If a listener selects a 5.1 presentation, the decoder reconstructs it from the two-channel downmix plus the 3.1-channel extension A substream by means of rematrixing. If a listener wants a 7.1 presentation, the decoder reconstructs it by rematrixing the reconstructed 5.1-channel program with the final two- channel extension B substream.

This all works nicely on paper. However, when used with lossy codecs that rely on psychoacoustic principles such as noise masking, this rematrixing can reveal coding artifacts that were otherwise inaudible. It's not that the coding artifacts have increased; instead, they become physically separated from the sound that originally masked them. As a result, the main sound and the coding artifacts may be directed to different loudspeakers, taking different acoustic paths to the listener and resulting in a phenomenon called coder unmasking.

Different Strategies for Differing Coding Technologies

Other codecs using a lossy core paired with a lossless extension treat them together, with the inevitable result that one or the other suffers. Either the lossy audio is potentially degraded by rematrixing, as explained earlier, or the lossless audio payload is materially increased because of the extra channels it carries. We chose to handle the lossy and lossless codecs independently, thereby elegantly avoiding these compromises by using the optimal method for each codec.

Due to the substream structure of Dolby TrueHD, a single Dolby TrueHD program can be used to deliver a two-, six-, or eight-channel presentation, each with precise control over the presentation as defined by the content producer. This means that an HD player needs to decode only the number of channels it can output, thus enabling more economical DSP decoder designs.

It should be noted that it is also possible for the two- and 5.1-channel presentations to be carried independently if it is important to avoid downmixing due to artistic reasons. In this case, however, the bit rate will increase due to the carriage of additional channels.
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post #368 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings,

Greg, Mission impossible Ghost Protocol is 7.1 TrueHD as well.


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post #369 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

So is he saying there should be no difference in the obvious clipping bitstreaming vs LPCM? That's not true. I've spent the better part of three hours on this, and can easily repeat both scenarios.

Now, as noted, even via LPCM, the soundtrack sounds way too hot, harsh, dirty and fatiguing...but the snapping that occurs when the Vengeance hits the water is only there via bitstream to my 151. It is NOT there via bitstream to my Integra. So the decoder is a factor to some degree here.

I played about 20 miinutes of Transformers Dark of the Moon, and my god, what a difference - rich, dynamic, free of fatigue (other than the stupidness of the movie :-)) - orders of magnitude better. I'm also playing it several db higher than I can STID (on the 151, reference is about 51 or 52% volume, and virtually all titles I can play at 45-51% free of fatigue. STID I stopped around 34% and even that hurt. So TDOTM is the same is all my other discs in terms of volume level, and, as a 7.1 True HD track, does not exhibit any of the issues on the STID.

It seems the high level of the recording on STID is negatively impacting bitstreaming decoding on my 151.

I'll see what other 7.1 TrueHD tracks I may have

STID almost seems like the hotter, brighter theatrical mix, not the mix for home cinema.



Very interesting as well, this is a hot mix for sure. Maybe a disc recall in the making.
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post #370 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

So is he saying there should be no difference in the obvious clipping bitstreaming vs LPCM? That's not true. I've spent the better part of three hours on this, and can easily repeat both scenarios.

Now, as noted, even via LPCM, the soundtrack sounds way too hot, harsh, dirty and fatiguing...but the snapping that occurs when the Vengeance hits the water is only there via bitstream to my 151. It is NOT there via bitstream to my Integra. So the decoder is a factor to some degree here.

I played about 20 miinutes of Transformers Dark of the Moon, and my god, what a difference - rich, dynamic, free of fatigue (other than the stupidness of the movie :-)) - orders of magnitude better. I'm also playing it several db higher than I can STID (on the 151, reference is about 51 or 52% volume, and virtually all titles I can play at 45-51% free of fatigue. STID I stopped around 34% and even that hurt. So TDOTM is the same is all my other discs in terms of volume level, and, as a 7.1 True HD track, does not exhibit any of the issues on the STID.

It seems the high level of the recording on STID is negatively impacting bitstreaming decoding on my 151.

I'll see what other 7.1 TrueHD tracks I may have

STID almost seems like the hotter, brighter theatrical mix, not the mix for home cinema.

Don't think he is saying that at all. All he is saying is there is no chance of an equipment error causing the clipping since that is removed from the equation when they measure. It is not related to your findings which are interesting and I am curious to hear more about that.

STID has to be the loudest mastered blu I have heard in my system which it sounds like you have similar feelings as well.

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post #371 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Ralph, did you listen straight 7.x or 9.x? If the latter, I wonder if the remapping changes conditions....


Greetings,

9.2 via DTS Neo:X. I will listen via straight decode and see what that yields.


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post #372 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:39 AM
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Don't think he is saying that at all. All he is saying is there is no chance of an equipment error causing the clipping since that is removed from the equation when they measure. It is not related to your findings which are interesting and I am curious to hear more about that.

STID has to be the loudest mastered blu I have heard in my system which it sounds like you have similar feelings as well.

That's the part I don't get - if the 151 decodes, audible snapping (clipping). If the Oppo player decodes, no snapping. If the Denon decodes, no snapping.

The high level of the signal may be inducing other issues with certain decoders? Dunno, but odd....

I have three or four other TrueHD 7.1 mixes which I'll also try. There may be something unique about this mix...
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post #373 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:42 AM
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Don't think he is saying that at all. All he is saying is there is no chance of an equipment error causing the clipping since that is removed from the equation when they measure. It is not related to your findings which are interesting and I am curious to hear more about that.

STID has to be the loudest mastered blu I have heard in my system which it sounds like you have similar feelings as well.

Dolby TrueHD has to be decoded. You cannot "remove it from the equation".
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post #374 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:46 AM
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That's the part I don't get - if the 151 decodes, audible snapping (clipping). If the Oppo player decodes, no snapping. If the Denon decodes, no snapping.

The high level of the signal may be inducing other issues with certain decoders? Dunno, but odd....

I have three or four other TrueHD 7.1 mixes which I'll also try. There may be something unique about this mix...


That is strange. confused.gif Interesting findings though and thanks for keeping us updated!
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Dolby TrueHD has to be decoded. You cannot "remove it from the equation".

I am just the messenger. You should jump over to the bass thread and talk with Nube about it as I would be curious to hear both of your thoughts on this after talking to each other.

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post #375 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:54 AM
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Greetings,

Thanks for chiming in Dave and please be sure to post back after running this through the Yamaha. smile.gif


Regards,



Are you doing a pro review of the new Yamaha Dave?
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post #376 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 11:59 AM
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I have rewatched several of the more interesting sound activity scenes in both bitstream and PCM modes and and the compression/limiting issues remain the same. Double checked for any dynamic range settings might be engaged on my system and none were.
The clipping I hear is what I consider 'soft clipping' which is baked into the mix due to the combination of usage of compression and limiting. Which is something I believe many may not notice or find as objectionable as I do. Once you do notice it really is annoying.

Some examples with vocals is that it can extenuate certain frequencies and cause a raspy quality or harshness.

From my friend's wave form analysis the track is mastered at just barely shying away from actual hard limiting. I believe they said the center channel is -1.4dB from 0dBFS.
Good audio engineering practice keeps the maximum transient peaks about -3dB from 0dBFS. This is suppose to help avoid clipping in the playback chain.

In respect to bass, it is a mixed bag. Much of it is good and a few bits that are impressive and closer to ST09 mix.
Such as at the 5:50 mark when the volcano is acting up or right at Chapter 9 when the USS Vengeance warps in, those bits actually sound and feel to be hitting the lower range.
Now there are various instances in which bass may have had mixed some lower frequencies but were perhaps filtered. Whereas other bits seemed purposely mixed to be louder and more punchy.
In this regards I can understand why most feel the bass overall is fine.

I think a fair comparison between the two films is the jumping to warp sound effects of the Enterprise. They are a bit different in each respective film but similar enough that best illustrates the differences in dynamics and bass extension.

Comparatively with some recent releases. I found The Hobbit to be lacking more in the bass department than STID does. Dynamics are better than TDKR, as well in respects to bass, and not nearly as harsh and fatiguing.
I find Oblivion is be more engaging and better balanced in regards to dynamics, lack of obvious limiting especially in the vocals, and more impressive deeper bass.

The discrepancies in evaluations lie more with what people are more sensitive to or are aware of, rather than a case of possible defective discs.

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post #377 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you doing a pro review of the new Yamaha Dave?

Greetings,

He is comfy but lets keep things on topic. wink.gif


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post #378 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 12:15 PM
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...or right at Chapter 9 when the USS Vengeance warps in, those bits actually sound and feel to be hitting the lower range.

This is when USS Vengeance warps in......and the second is when USS Enterprise warps out...and the third is when they battle in warp.....in Chapter 9

StarTrek_IntoDarkness_Vengeance_appears_ch9_66.jpg

StarTrek_IntoDarkness_Enterprise_prepare_and_warp_ch9_66.jpg

StarTrek_IntoDarkness_warp_battle_ch9_66.jpg
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post #379 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 12:26 PM
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Greetings,

He is comfy but lets keep things on topic. wink.gif


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No problem Ralph smile.gif
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This is when USS Vengeance warps in......and the second is when USS Enterprise warps out...and the third is when they battle in warp.....in Chapter 9

StarTrek_IntoDarkness_Vengeance_appears_ch9_66.jpg

StarTrek_IntoDarkness_Enterprise_prepare_and_warp_ch9_66.jpg

StarTrek_IntoDarkness_warp_battle_ch9_66.jpg

How do you read this?
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post #381 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 12:33 PM
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Thrang I'll set my oppo 105 to Lpcm to my 8801 to see just audible the difference is as I've tried to post on this matter many times before that bitstreaming to the 8801 yielded better dynamics!
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post #382 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 12:35 PM
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^^^
Can someone decipher the graphs please confused.gif
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Here's a down and dirty Voice Memo capture from my iPhone - listen for the hard clipping sounds in the middle - its much worse when listening for real

This is when the Vengeance hits the water....

STID clipping.m4a.zip 73k .zip file
Attached Files
File Type: zip STID clipping.m4a.zip (72.6 KB, 53 views)
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Here's a down and dirty Voice Memo capture from my iPhone - listen for the hard clipping sounds in the middle - its much worse when listening for real

This is when the Vengeance hits the water....

STID clipping.m4a.zip 73k .zip file

That's the clipping sound I've heard over the years in many soundtracks over the years and its mostly always in one speaker but not all a good example is Star Trek Generations in the scene when jordi yells "Wha woo Yes Worf" and another when the stray flare from the Nexus hits the navigational deflector on the Enterprise B . And also one scene in TDSOTM. I've always thought it was digital clipping? if there is such a thing!
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Well ad me to the sound was awesome camp,in fact one of the best sounding truehd tracks I have heard in my theater.Wow just awesome!!! Using oppo to marantz 7701 just watched in 3d and loved every minute, man I love this hobby. Thanks Jim
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How do you read this?

Time - from bottom to top
Frequency - from left to right
Intensity - you see the color scale in left column....
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post #387 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 01:04 PM
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I forgot to add I did cheat a bit, I got the Netflix rental eek.gifbiggrin.gif as I haven't decided on the 2d or this being my first home 3D experience smile.gif
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Quote:
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That's the clipping sound I've heard over the years in many soundtracks over the years and its mostly always in one speaker but not all a good example is Star Trek Generations in the scene when jordi yells "Wha woo Yes Worf" and another when the stray flare from the Nexus hits the navigational deflector on the Enterprise B . And also one scene in TDSOTM. I've always thought it was digital clipping? if there is such a thing!



On the dark side of the moon cd?
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post #389 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 01:07 PM
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Can someone tell me what he means by a DCP copy is? Does he mean digital copy?
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post #390 of 569 Old 09-15-2013, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrek View Post

Well ad me to the sound was awesome camp,in fact one of the best sounding truehd tracks I have heard in my theater.Wow just awesome!!! Using oppo to marantz 7701 just watched in 3d and loved every minute, man I love this hobby. Thanks Jim
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Greetings,

Glad to hear it Jim and I agree about this hobby... smile.gif


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Ralph C. Potts
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