Star Trek Into Darkness 3D (Blu-ray) Official AVSForum Review - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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Old 09-19-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Thrang thanks for the update. For the life of me I can't see where your McIntosh is at fault other than a mismatch with the soundtrack. What are your thoughts in that possibility? Also have you had problems with other discs?
I just watched this again last night and like you said there is no odd sounds when the Vengeance crashed on my 8801.

Someone smarter than I noted to me that certain Cirrus DSP have exhibited this (or similar) issue in the past. Not sure what the Mac uses, but could be the issue.

Any Emotiva processors owners out there? Supposedly it uses a Cirrus....
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Someone smarter than I noted to me that certain Cirrus DSP have exhibited this (or similar) issue in the past. Not sure what the Mac uses, but could be the issue.

Any Emotiva processors owners out there? Supposedly it uses a Cirrus....



I gotcha and was just wondering what your gut feeling was.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:14 AM
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Not reference. Found the soundtrack to be good but not great. My biggest problem was inconsistent audio experience...specifically with LFE. Dialogue was just fine. The example that comes to mind is the crash towards the end of the movie. I was expecting a spectacular (Hulk/Underwold Awakaning type of bass) audio event and it was just ho hum. However in othe parts, the bass was just fine such as when they come out of warp drive earlier in the movie...that was pretty impactfull on my system.
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:33 AM
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Not reference(not even close)
Integra 80.3
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OK. Here are some of my thoughts. I am never close top reference with any movie I watch since my room is so small. Since having my room re-calibrated with the 80.3 it seems that -16 is a good place for me. I watched OHF at that level at it sounded great. Last night I watched STID. Now, with reading the posts here and seeing how hot this track seemed to be, I started way lower then even -16. I ended up at -22 on my Integra. Now even at that level I heard a bit of distortion. But probably not as much as many people here since I can get away with a lot lower level in my room. Even at -22 it still seemed loud. As for the bass, what was there, it seemed O.K. My Crowson's crossover is set at 40Hz. So I only get frequencies below 40HZ to the Crowson. I did get some tactile sensation through the Crowson but it was not as great as some other movies. I don't remember where the filter is in this movie. I will say that my sub seemed to be doing something as well. So my final review is poor audio because it is way to hot. If you are in a large room where you have to really turn the MV up to enjoy it, you will be disappointed. A person like me, who has a tactile transducer to give me a little extra shake(it goes down to 5HZ) and are in a small room might be able to have this film as watchable. But I cam hear why so many people are upset with the mix. I hope this is not a new trend.

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Old 09-19-2013, 09:30 PM
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Thanks again for another great review Ralph!

As for my thoughts on the movie after viewing it twice:

I was never a huge fan of the old movie (or TV series). Always more of a Star Wars (SW) than Star Trek (ST) fan smile.gif, but I have seen most of the ST movies at some time or another.

That said, I've actually enjoyed the reboot series. I liked the first reboot and enjoyed the overall movie in this latest iteration. Visuals were great, and for a post-processed 3D film, I thought the 3D was actually pretty good (miles ahead of Clash Of The Titans post-processed 3D without a doubt). The hot topic though, (and for good reason IMHO) is the audio.

This is one of the loudest sounding movies I've watched to date, in that the average levels sound a lot louder than the average levels in just about any movie I've ever watched (The Dark Knight Rises-TDKR was another Loud Fidelity notable). I'm also one of the folks who is bothered by distortion/clipping and noticed it in this soundtrack too (as well as in Tron Legacy and a few other movies). The distortion/clipping I hear is NOT like what thrang posted in the zip file. It is along the lines of what is heard in the demo HERE:
http://productionadvice.co.uk/clipping/

Play that demo video on your HT system and see if you can clearly hear the differences between the 'Clean', 'Digital clipping' and 'Analogue clipping'. The differences might not even be apparent on some setups at your normal listening levels (different setups will be more or less revealing of distortion/clipping. I noticed this when I tried switching between different modes and processing on the avr (some of the processing modes in the avr other than a straight decode, such as THX Cinema and the PL modes and what not made the clipping in that demo less obvious. It was still there, but not as easily heard). In addition, different people have different sensitivity to distortion/clipping the way different folks have different sensitivities to the Rainbow Effect of DLP displays. Some are more bothered by it, some don't really notice it.

I noticed the clipping in numerous scenes in STID, including the Vengeance crash. Between STID and TDKR, it feels like the Loudness Wars might have come to movie soundtracks, where they're making compromises in other areas (lowest frequency extension, and running into digital clipping and distortion) in order to be able to raise overall levels. I tried watching STID at my usual -5db from THX Reference and ended up turning it down to -15db and it still sounded very loud bot because it's mixed loud and because the harshness of the distortion made it seem louder ( I DO watch some movies at THX Reference, but per FilmMixer's subjective opinions, mixing movie audio at Todd AO, -5db on hos calibrated home setup sounds closer to him to what the Reference calibrated Todd AO room sounds like than '0' on his HT setup, which he says sounds a little louder than Reference).

As for my review audio system (and the questionnaire):
- Reference audio for STID: definitely NO
- Oppo BDP-93 (Bitstream)
- Onkyo 5008 (straight decode to 5.1 with Audyssey XT32 calibration)
- 3 x Emotiva XPA-1 for the LCR (1000 watts @ 4ohms for the LF & RF, 500watts @ 8ohms for the CC) and a Crown XLS-2500 for the Surrounds (500wpc @ 8ohms).
- Legacy Audio Focus SE's for the LR (manufacturer rated sensitivity 95.4db/w/m)
- Boston Acoustics E70 for the CC (manufacturer rated sensitivity 90db/w/m)
- Boston Acoustics E100's for the surrounds (manufacturer rated sensitivity 89db/w/m)
- 2 x Seaton Submersive HP's
- MLP distance of 10 feet
- Main Volume at -5 THX Reference

With THX Reference levels requiring 105db from the satellites (and 115db from the subwoofers), my mains at their rated sensitivity need 90 watts to hit Reference levels at my MLP, the CC needs 237 watts and the surrounds need 106 watts based on their sensitivities and distances to the MLP, so I have no shortage of power and I'm easily within the speakers power handling limits. I'm stating all this to explain that the distortion is not due to overdriving the system. I heard the distortion clearly at -5db, and it was still clearly audible (but not as loud obviously), at -15db. Once again, to clarify, the clipping is NOT like that popping heard in thrang's zip file, it is similar to what is heard in the demo linked above.

BTW, to all those folks stating that their normal listening levels are -24db or some such and that they watched STID at -34db etc., I think it's important to state if you are using Dynamic Compression modes like Audyssey's Dynamic Volume or Loudness Plus, Midnight mode etc. and or volume compensation modes like Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. IMO, with a system properly calibrated to produce THX Reference at the MLP (if it's actually even truly capable of THX Reference maximum SPLs which MANY setups aren't), a Main Volume of -25db with NO dynamic compression or compensation of any sort (like Audyssey's Dynamic Volume, Dynamic EQ or any similar modes) is quite soft/low and a -35db Main Volume would make dialogue levels VERY low, and without anything like Dynamic EQ, bass and LFE is significantly neutered.


Max
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Old 09-19-2013, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Thanks again for another great review Ralph!



BTW, to all those folks stating that their normal listening levels are -24db or some such and that they watched STID at -34db etc., I think it's important to state if you are using Dynamic Compression modes like Audyssey's Dynamic Volume or Loudness Plus, Midnight mode etc. and or volume compensation modes like Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. IMO, with a system properly calibrated to produce THX Reference at the MLP (if it's actually even truly capable of THX Reference maximum SPLs which MANY setups aren't), a Main Volume of -25db with NO dynamic compression or compensation of any sort (like Audyssey's Dynamic Volume, Dynamic EQ or any similar modes) is quite soft/low and a -35db Main Volume would make dialogue levels VERY low, and without anything like Dynamic EQ, bass and LFE is significantly neutered.


Max

Wow! That's quite a sentence. It leaves me asking, "What?"

It seems we've gotten some pretty long responses to the request to keep it simple, and if the poster and Ralph do not mind, then so be it. smile.gif

Part of my disconnect is easy to understand. I don't use Audyssey since I purposely don't have anything that offers Audyssey. That leads me to believe that on my system, I can't hear what others are hearing since there's a critical piece of processing that doesn't exist in my sound chain. For those who are using Audyssey, what does this sound like when you turn it off? Even though I'm not a user of Audyssey and somewhat ignorant of it in actual use, I'm curious to know if there's any change--not in the effect of the calibration because that might be pretty obvious--but in the presence/absence/prominence/ of the issues that are bothering many listeners?

If this has been addressed somewhere in these 16 pages, my apologies for missing it.

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Old 09-20-2013, 12:04 AM
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Audyssey's MultEQ measures and calibrates the system's volume levels for THX Reference levels at the first measurement position at the MLP (Main Listening Position) with a Main Volume setting of '0' in Relative mode.

It also calibrates the in-room Frequency Response to provide as smooth/flat an FR as possible. The standard Audyssey response also has the BBC dip at 2kHz and a mild rolloff from 10kHz to 20kHz. Audyssey Flat is just that, a flat FR. The most powerful versions of it (XT32 and XT32 Pro) do a very good job of reducing bass ringing that is typical in rooms that aren't acoustically treated.

In well-treated rooms with equipment (speakers + signal chain) that have an inherently smooth response, Audyssey needs to do very little.

In my room, XT32 On vs Off produces a slight additional reduction in bass ringing and a flattening of the low end of the speakers frequency response (native in-room response tends to exhibit typical room gain in the lower octaves).

As this is getting off-topic for the discussion at hand, I'll just state that I just tested it, and having Audyssey's XT32 EQ On vs Off does not change the audibility of the clipping in STID. If anything, turning XT32 Off and removing the rolloff above 10kHz that the standard Audyssey curve produces actually makes the clipping slightly easier to hear as the clipping produces odd harmonics.

Anyone interested in more info about Audyssey is welcome to check the Official Audyssey thread.


Max
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Audyssey's MultEQ measures and calibrates the system's volume levels for THX Reference levels at the first measurement position at the MLP (Main Listening Position) with a Main Volume setting of '0' in Relative mode.

It also calibrates the in-room Frequency Response to provide as smooth/flat an FR as possible. The standard Audyssey response also has the BBC dip at 2kHz and a mild rolloff from 10kHz to 20kHz. Audyssey Flat is just that, a flat FR. The most powerful versions of it (XT32 and XT32 Pro) do a very good job of reducing bass ringing that is typical in rooms that aren't acoustically treated.

In well-treated rooms with equipment (speakers + signal chain) that have an inherently smooth response, Audyssey needs to do very little.

In my room, XT32 On vs Off produces a slight additional reduction in bass ringing and a flattening of the low end of the speakers frequency response (native in-room response tends to exhibit typical room gain in the lower octaves).

As this is getting off-topic for the discussion at hand, I'll just state that I just tested it, and having Audyssey's XT32 EQ On vs Off does not change the audibility of the clipping in STID. If anything, turning XT32 Off and removing the rolloff above 10kHz that the standard Audyssey curve produces actually makes the clipping slightly easier to hear as the clipping produces odd harmonics.

Anyone interested in more info about Audyssey is welcome to check the Official Audyssey thread.


Max

Are you kidding me you put your E100's behind you and not in front biggrin.gif JK how are you liking the Legacies are they as good top to bottom?
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:55 AM
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So basically that's a long winded way of saying those of us that thought the soundtrack was reference don't know what we are taking about. I was ok with it until I felt like I was getting talked down to, with references to this kind of clipping and that kind of clipping. If I ever get to the point where I'm scrutinizing AV quality and what other people hear, to this extreme, just shoot me, because at this point the joy is gone as far as I'm concerned. Of course as always this is IMO.
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:01 AM
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djbluemax1,

Thanks for the reply and for taking the time to test it rather than just writing about it.

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Old 09-20-2013, 01:22 AM
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STID is just a Man Up! sound track and I like it for what it is and could careless what anyone else thinks of me thinking so wink.gif
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings,

This thread has progressed well beyond the scope of what I would normally allow and I explained my reasons for permitting the additional discussion. I want to thank everyone for their contributions. smile.gif

Based upon the fact that there are those that have issues with this audio presentation as well as those that don't I decided to check in with several writers as well as several industry professionals that don't review Blu-ray, but have had the chance to audition this track. Don't ask me for names because I won't go into it nor will I offer specifics about the input I received as I feel it will only further debate.

What I will say is that the consensus is that there is no question that STID is aggressively mixed, probably at the source based upon how it presented theatrically. I didn't receive any feedback that warrants further investigation into the dissection of this soundtrack beyond what is evidenced by our own ears. That shouldn't be construed to mean that there is or isn't a viable question regarding the varying opinions on the matter.

The problem is that reading the information contained here more or less comes down to dissenting opinions that are underscored by theories that when combined primarily break down into two camps. Those that feel the soundtrack is worthy of praise etc. (and the feeling that those that don't are being over analytic) and those that feel the soundtrack is problematic/deleterious (and the feeling that those that don't observe that aren't listening critically etc.).

The relative sampling we see here isn't representative of either as there are many on both sides of the equation that simply won't offer any input. It isn't my job to convince anyone that my opinion is the right one but simply to report my findings which I have done. Generally in cases like this I leave it at that but because I DO feel that there may be something at play other than a "simple" case of differing opinion I am going to contact the studio and bring this to their attention. What they do with it I can't say and I may very well never know.

I will end by going back to the advice I gave earlier in this thread. Let your experience be your guide. If your reaction after listening was a good one leave it at that and enjoy the presentation. If your reaction was that the audio was not what you were expecting and inherently problematic, explore whatever options you feel are necessary to determine that the issue (s) are not setup but source related and chalk it up to it is what it is.

As for this thread I will keep it open but would ask that we refrain from long winded commentary, links to other sites in an effort to support an opinion/theory (and the like) and caustic debates.

Thanks as always for everyone's continued support. You guys are the best! smile.gif

Regards,
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

This thread has progressed well beyond the scope of what I would normally allow and I explained my reasons for permitting the additional discussion. I want to thank everyone for their contributions. smile.gif

Based upon the fact that there are those that have issues with this audio presentation as well as those that don't I decided to check in with several writers as well as several industry professionals that don't review Blu-ray, but have had the chance to audition this track. Don't ask me for names because I won't go into it nor will I offer specifics about the input I received as I feel it will only further debate.

What I will say is that the consensus is that there is no question that STID is aggressively mixed, probably at the source based upon how it presented theatrically. I didn't receive any feedback that warrants further investigation into the dissection of this soundtrack beyond what is evidenced by our own ears. That shouldn't be construed to mean that there is or isn't a viable question regarding the varying opinions on the matter.

The problem is that reading the information contained here more or less comes down to dissenting opinions that are underscored by theories that when combined primarily break down into two camps. Those that feel the soundtrack is worthy of praise etc. (and the feeling that those that don't are being over analytic) and those that feel the soundtrack is problematic/deleterious (and the feeling that those that don't observe that aren't listening critically etc.).

The relative sampling we see here isn't representative of either as there are many on both sides of the equation that simply won't offer any input. It isn't my job to convince anyone that my opinion is the right one but simply to report my findings which I have done. Generally in cases like this I leave it at that but because I DO feel that there may be something at play other than a "simple" case of differing opinion I am going to contact the studio and bring this to their attention. What they do with it I can't say and I may very well never know.
,

Excellent initiative! Lets hope they bring some new info to the table.
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Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post


I will end by going back to the advice I gave earlier in this thread. Let your experience be your guide. If your reaction after listening was a good one leave it at that and enjoy the presentation. If your reaction was that the audio was not what you were expecting and inherently problematic, explore whatever options you feel are necessary to determine that the issue (s) are not setup but source related and chalk it up to it is.
I believe that it has already been established that there is severe clipping on the BR audio track in several of the threads? So, there isnt really much point in discussing what is wrong with the audio. We already know this.
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As for this thread I will keep it open but would ask that we refrain from long winded commentary, links to other sites in an effort to support an opinion/theory (and the like) and caustic debates.

Thanks as always for everyone's continued support. You guys are the best! smile.gif

Regards,
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Old 09-20-2013, 09:47 AM
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I did a second viewing of this movie last night – sounds fantastic on my set-up
Played back full reference – Hugh soundstage – massive wall of sound.
Great sidewall/ rear imaging –
Just some missed LFE moments keeping it from the very top tier
(ship crash I found lacking in extension)

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Old 09-20-2013, 09:54 AM
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Fellow AVS member addino and I borrowed an 8801 yesterday, did an audyssey calibration, and re-listened to segments of STID.

The snapping/popping sound during the water crash sequence is not present when bitstreaming, so that's definitely something wrong with the McIntosh processor. We did continue to feel the soundtrack was otherwise the same - hot, compressed, and fatiguing, even more so than on the McIntosh. Even during the crash sequence, though there's no hard clipping, the distortion of the sound effects is easily discernible, as it is in many other sequences.

IMHO, I cannot for the life of me see how this is believed to be reference or even close to it.

It sounded reference on my Bryston SP3. eek.gifrolleyes.gif
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Old 09-20-2013, 10:30 AM
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It sounded reference on my Bryston SP3. eek.gifrolleyes.gif

We have different criteria and different thresholds I suppose...we can leave it at that, except to add that the analysis by others, if accurate, seems to correlate with it being compressed, filtered, and prone to distortion. My 151 will not create that and your Bryston will not ameliorate it - whatever is there is baked int seems

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Old 09-20-2013, 04:01 PM
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Ok, I saw this in 3D and the audio rocked on my system! Crystal Clear dialogue , great bass and surround effects. I will say the bass could have been a tad better when the Vengengence crashed into Starfleet, but other than that, I say Reference as well, I just did not hear the clipping that people are talkin about! I have Parasound A52 and Parasound 2125 for rear center speaker along with my DefTech 7002 and Infinity rear speakers along with my Yammi rx-z7 as a Pre/Amp and DefTech Trinity Sub and Oppo 83 and Panasonic 3D BD player.........just my .02! smile.gif
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Old 09-21-2013, 12:13 AM
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Finished watching this, I agree with your score Ralph absolutely reference in the audio department. Everything about it was top notch.
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Old 09-21-2013, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

This thread has progressed well beyond the scope of what I would normally allow and I explained my reasons for permitting the additional discussion. I want to thank everyone for their contributions. smile.gif

Based upon the fact that there are those that have issues with this audio presentation as well as those that don't I decided to check in with several writers as well as several industry professionals that don't review Blu-ray, but have had the chance to audition this track. Don't ask me for names because I won't go into it nor will I offer specifics about the input I received as I feel it will only further debate.

What I will say is that the consensus is that there is no question that STID is aggressively mixed, probably at the source based upon how it presented theatrically. I didn't receive any feedback that warrants further investigation into the dissection of this soundtrack beyond what is evidenced by our own ears. That shouldn't be construed to mean that there is or isn't a viable question regarding the varying opinions on the matter.

The problem is that reading the information contained here more or less comes down to dissenting opinions that are underscored by theories that when combined primarily break down into two camps. Those that feel the soundtrack is worthy of praise etc. (and the feeling that those that don't are being over analytic) and those that feel the soundtrack is problematic/deleterious (and the feeling that those that don't observe that aren't listening critically etc.).

The relative sampling we see here isn't representative of either as there are many on both sides of the equation that simply won't offer any input. It isn't my job to convince anyone that my opinion is the right one but simply to report my findings which I have done. Generally in cases like this I leave it at that but because I DO feel that there may be something at play other than a "simple" case of differing opinion I am going to contact the studio and bring this to their attention. What they do with it I can't say and I may very well never know.

I will end by going back to the advice I gave earlier in this thread. Let your experience be your guide. If your reaction after listening was a good one leave it at that and enjoy the presentation. If your reaction was that the audio was not what you were expecting and inherently problematic, explore whatever options you feel are necessary to determine that the issue (s) are not setup but source related and chalk it up to it is what it is.

As for this thread I will keep it open but would ask that we refrain from long winded commentary, links to other sites in an effort to support an opinion/theory (and the like) and caustic debates.

Thanks as always for everyone's continued support. You guys are the best! smile.gif

Regards,

No Ralph, YOU are the best! smile.gif Thanks for dealing with all of our passionate debate here in your thread and for contacting the studio as well. I just love being a part of this community here at AVS and really enjoy talking all things A/V with you guys. Cheers! biggrin.gif
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Old 09-21-2013, 04:59 AM
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I watched ST:ID in 3D in cinema & it was the 1st 3D movie that I like.
I've watched the 1st hour of it in 2D blu ray on my 100" PJ this afternoon, and the sound effects were "wow". Powerful.
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Old 09-21-2013, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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No Ralph, YOU are the best! smile.gif Thanks for dealing with all of our passionate debate here in your thread and for contacting the studio as well. I just love being a part of this community here at AVS and really enjoy talking all things A/V with you guys. Cheers! biggrin.gif

Greetings,

You're welcome Todd. smile.gif

Thank you and I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about our site. cool.gif


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Old 09-21-2013, 06:12 AM
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No Ralph, YOU are the best! smile.gif Thanks for dealing with all of our passionate debate here in your thread and for contacting the studio as well. I just love being a part of this community here at AVS and really enjoy talking all things A/V with you guys. Cheers! biggrin.gif



+1
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Old 09-21-2013, 08:49 AM
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Popped in my 3D disc today just for giggles and the audio is pretty terrific. Way better the my 2D disc for some strange reason. With the 3D disc , however, I do notice the harshness and shrill-ness that I did not on the 2D disc.

Upon further listening , night and day difference.

Kaboom.
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Old 09-21-2013, 08:53 AM
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The 3d disc when played on a ps3 with hdmi is dolby digital 5.1 audio lossy. The menus are in 3d and the movie is. Great 3d quality although it's the real d 3d version not the imax version.
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:03 AM
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Popped in my 3D disc today just for giggles and the audio is pretty terrific. Way better the my 2D disc for some strange reason. With the 3D disc , however, I do notice the harshness and shrill-ness that I did not on the 2D disc.

Upon further listening , night and day difference.



That is really interesting. Good post thanks. See this is exactly why I would love to hear Paramounts explanation for the total night and day experiences many are reporting.
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:05 AM
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The 3d disc when played on a ps3 with hdmi is dolby digital 5.1 audio lossy. The menus are in 3d and the movie is. Great 3d quality although it's the real d 3d version not the imax version.



So the PS3 is not decoding it as TrueHD?
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:07 AM
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Popped in my 3D disc today just for giggles and the audio is pretty terrific. Way better the my 2D disc for some strange reason. With the 3D disc , however, I do notice the harshness and shrill-ness that I did not on the 2D disc.

Upon further listening , night and day difference.

Interesting. I watched both the 2d and 3d version and audio subjectively sounded EXACTLY the same. What player are you using?

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:14 AM
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Interesting. I watched both the 2d and 3d version and audio subjectively sounded EXACTLY the same. What player are you using?
Oppo 95. Audio says Dolby HD on my Anthem. Several demo scenes on this disc. Other was caca poo poo.

Kaboom.
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:20 AM
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Oppo 95. Audio says Dolby HD on my Anthem. Several demo scenes on this disc. Other was caca poo poo.

What exactly is better? I assume your Anthem said Dolby HD for the 2d as well? You played both at the same volume level? I played both tracks bitstreamed out of my Oppo 93 at -1 and could literally tell no difference in any way.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:45 AM
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Well now you're asking me to describe audio, a tough task. Same volume level. I guess the best I can say is that everything sounded more cohesive. Less disjointed. Bass, although filtered , sounded fuller, more well rounded. Almost as if comparing DVD Audio to blu ray audio. Before anyone asks, yes , I am sure my first listen was blu ray. All I can guess is a bad disc or something. Not knowing.

Kaboom.
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