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post #181 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 06:51 AM
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Neither was I confronting you, but merely the idea that these "filters" exist in the first place (or are instituted nearly as frequently as some propose)...perhaps even the mention of the word trips my trigger at this point, so sorry, there. smile.gif

I don't mean to get on a soapbox but all of this- which really comes down to sub specsmanship (with a small number) infinitely more than anything else- is really starting to ruin things for me when it comes to these review threads.

Unless I missed it somewhere, this is about the experience, not graph plots, and that comes from guy who's heavier into stats than about 99.9% of the populace.

Yes, they (stats) can and do have validity, but when does what they indicate begin to (degeneratively or beneficially) color our experiences? Again, an honest question.

Something can still be an A -level experience without executing perfection in every single nuance of the category (including, ironically, "bass extension" without reaching down to 15hz)...this cannot and should not be forgotten and I'm glad Ralph makes no bones about how he goes about assigning very high- even perfect- scores while alluding to this reality.

Still (sigh), seems some have now reached the point where they are inventing things rather than simply accepting the reality of the "art" for better or worse. Actual humans mixing these films have said point blank that they (filters) do not exist where some have purported otherwise (Marc Fisher comes to mind) but yet it rages on, still.

So then, at this point I simply want to see the evidence- and posting a BD response graph is not evidence that there exists a difference between it and the master.

I don't think it's asking too much.

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post #182 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 07:15 AM
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I agree with your post %100. There are a few professionals here who work on movies right? If they can, it would great to get there feed back on this to see if there is some great conspiracy to "rob" us of low bass. I prefer to judge with my ears, not looking at graphs even though people say looking at graphs get's you the whole picture. Sorry if I get flamed for that but when I want to experience a movie, I watch the movie and I don't look at a spectrum analyzer result of the movie.

I don't have M&C on BR so I can't comment on that. But I have enjoyed every movie that is supposed to be filtered. Mixers probably have there own styles, likes and dislikes so it's possible that there will be differences. But I find it really hard to believe that anybody is doing this on purpose because they feel people with HTiB are blowing up their subs. I mean, there are recent movies that come out within two weeks of one another and one seems to be full range (2hz) and the other seems to be "filtered" (19hz). To me that makes little sense. Some of those "filtered" sound tracks sound really good to me so how could that be? What's the motive? I don't know.

I have seen some charts of these filtered movies and it looks like they go low, just not as intense. To me that is not filtered. That just means that it is not as hot as some of the other movies we all know. And how do we know that the "filtered"(lower intensity) is wrong? Maybe that is correct and they just let the low stuff slowly tapper off and the really hard and loud stuff is the wrong stuff. I think I remember reading about some of the movies that have really loud and low stuff and people sometimes mention that there is clipping in the signal. That can't be right or good for the soundtrack could it? Two that come to mind are TRON and The Immortals. They have really loud and low bass but they also clip. Maybe some studios don't care about that and let it just run wild while some studios don't want that clipping and like a more gradual, realistic low end. Or I could be completely wrong tongue.gif.

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post #183 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Explain "filter" please.

Does that mean you- or someone on the inside- is privy to what the master has on it and it knows that it (LFE) has been clipped off the blu ray release... or that the soundtrack has little or no content below 30hz, straightaway? It's all very confusing to me. confused.gif

If I'm being honest, I think this "GREAT bass soundtracks need 3-15hz extension" has gone completely off the rails and into the stratosphere and I (and others) am infinitely tired of hearing about this "filtering" that no one provides an ounce of evidence for...they just simply proclaim it's going on when they discover that software "x" doesn't reveal sub 20hz content and everyone's supposed to take it at face value. Go figure. rolleyes.gif The balance of us- who understand the real meat potatoes is found between 20 and 60hz- just suffer in ignorance and enjoy these great bass flicks I guess...again, go figure.

Again, thus far I have seen virtually no evidence of this going on, sans -literally- a few titles...Master and Commander on the BD side, for instance.

thanks in advance for objective, verifiable information that can substantiate this filtering outbreak. I for one DO have a system readily capable of producing this, so I'll head that angle off right from the jump with this shameless link of thy rig, sorry...

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc413/mastermaybe/5FAECF6F-6ADA-4D42-9ABC-F4B7BA27BDD4-1003-00000128A894EEAF_zps1801edfe.jpg

James

James,

Click the data-bass link in my previous post, sign up so you can see the graphs and read post #1 which gives a thorough explanation on everything that is going on in that thread. There is a steep filter right about 30hz which means there is practically nothing below that and if you have a low end system that digs hard into the teens or lower, you will be able to notice this missing extension as the bass effects literally sound/feel chopped off and incomplete. Compare this filtered type of track now to something that has not been filtered like ST2009 and you will notice a difference. One feels complete, the other feels as if something is missing, again assuming you have a sub or subs (maybe a tactile system as well as I use Buttkickers rated down to 5hz) that hit hard into the teens or lower.

It is speculation as to when and why the filter was placed and surely there is a reason, but what is it?

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post #184 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

Hey Brad, I understand your concern however in rating a soundtrack I try to look at it as a whole which does of course include the quality of the bass and how effectively it supports the track's elements. I agree that it is important that low frequency effects not only support the track but also draw us into the film by providing tangible extension capable of energizing the room. This can certainly be achieved with sub bass frequencies that need not extend below 18hz especially considering the fact that the average system isn't capable of reproducing those frequencies. Having said that I will admit to reveling in those rare moments when ultra low frequency content provides bass that flows through the room as if on a soft cushion that palpably attaches itself to anything not securely nailed down.

I will consider adding an additional rating element to my reviews that references this. I am not certain if it will be reflected in the overall score but may be an add on. We'll see...


Regards,

Don't you already have this though Ralph with the "low frequency extension" grading parameter? I always asuumed since you give a separate rating for each of these parameters that you consider them individually even though you like to think of the track as a whole in general. Do I have that wrong?

Assuming you do take each individual parameter into consideration which is the way it appears since each one is graded on its own 5 star scale, I would think you could tell a difference in extension between a filtered at 30hz track and something unfiltered since you are using the same sub I am ( I just have a few more). Of course my BKs help to determine a filtered vs unfiltered track as well, but there is a clear difference just with our PB13s.

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post #185 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

So it looks like they just did the reverse on the two Star Trek movies
Star Trek
Level - 3 Stars (264.2dBHz) a surprise!
Extension - 5 Stars (2Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.0dB) 2nd Highest Recorded Yet!

Star Trek ITD
Level - 5 Stars (113.27dB composite!)
Extension - 3 Stars (19Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.96dB!)

So we went from a score of "3 to Level 5" on level and we went from "5 to 3" on extension. With the dynamics being a little bit more on ITD. I know there are some movies that have both but it seems that if we have to have one, people would rather have extension then level. Now these filters aren't brick walls right? I mean, there could be content lower then 19hz on ITD, it's just not a high level correct. I am still looking forward to this because I am curious how it will sound and feel in my system.

A low level is ALWAYS preferred over a filter since you can boost your low end (if you want) if the level is to low, but if you have a steep filter like STID, you cant boost what is not there to begin with. frown.gif
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post #186 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Don't you already have this though Ralph with the "low frequency extension" grading parameter? I always asuumed since you give a separate rating for each of these parameters that you consider them individually even though you like to think of the track as a whole in general. Do I have that wrong?

Assuming you do take each individual parameter into consideration which is the way it appears since each one is graded on its own 5 star scale, I would think you could tell a difference in extension between a filtered at 30hz track and something unfiltered since you are using the same sub I am ( I just have a few more). Of course my BKs help to determine a filtered vs unfiltered track as well, but there is a clear difference just with our PB13s.

Greetings,

You understand it correctly Todd. My comments to Brad were relative to adding a separate rating marker, not figured into the scoring parameter which has already been accounted for, to at a glance, indicate the presence of ULF content. And yes I can indeed tell the difference.

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post #187 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Again, where's the evidence that these "filters" exist in the first place...or, at least are remotely implemented with any sort of discern or rigor?

Is it unimaginable that- for a MYRIAD of reasons- one film has lower and/or more frequent low extension than another, straightaway, without having a single connection to this assuaged "filtering"?

Tell me where I'm going wrong, please. It's an honest question. If one has zero access to the original masters and their levels/response how on earth could one make any kind of valid claims re their (proposed) differences (between the master and BD)?

James

If you look at a typical unfiltered track, the effects wont ALL just stop and fall off a cliff at any one point (~30hz as the case is here with STID) for the entire film........it does not naturally happen that way. Again, click the link I provided and spend some time over there and you will get a better understanding. Why the filter is there though is anyone's guess and there is of course a reason for it, it would just be great to get some insight as to why. The guys over on DB think it's a loudness wars type thing, maybe it was to cater to the common commercial theater which doesn't have good extension anyway so why leave in all that great LFE, etc.......it's all speculation until we can hear from someone close to the project.

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post #188 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

A low level is ALWAYS preferred over a filter since you can boost your low end (if you want) if the level is to low, but if you have a steep filter like STID, you cant boost what is not there to begin with. frown.gif
Thanks. I freely admit that I am the really deep end of the pool here, but I will try and learn. I don't know how much I can contribute, but I just signed up for the Data-Bass site. I plan on looking at some charts of movies that are filtered and those that are not. I already did really quick and I can see what everyone is talking about now. I don't want to mess up this Star Trek thread with stuff like that so I will just do it on my own. It would be nice if there was a filtered/not filtered dedicated thread somewhere so it could easily be seen. Actually, how about on the Data Bass site, where the list the movies under what star it is, they just say "filtered" or "non-filtered" so rookies like me tongue.gif can try to understand this a bit more. Would TF3 be considered filtered? I mean it looks like it drops off but it turns back up at the end the end of the chart.

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post #189 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 09:04 AM
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I watched this last night first time. Totally surprised by the audio which was excellent as well as an equally impressive video representation. Then again it may just be the Kuro/OPPO combination doing its thing. Thumbs way up for me.
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post #190 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 09:12 AM
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Unless I missed it somewhere, this is about the experience, not graph plots, and that comes from guy who's heavier into stats than about 99.9% of the populace.

That is the exact problem James. The experience is not what it could and should be when a track looses it's balls down low. And you don't need a super sub setup to notice when this happens. The specs of my subs in todays world for example are nothing special (still nice subs though), but I could immediately tell a difference with the last track this happened to, The Hobbit as the low end was VERY unconvincing relative to the on screen action which took me out of the film to some degree. Same thing with The Avengers where the obvious lopped off low end relative to the on screen action lacked that full conviction vs TIH for example which is a natural comparison for obvious reasons. When a track looses it's nuts, it sounds and feels incomplete relative to tracks that don't have missing lopped off extension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Thanks. I freely admit that I am the really deep end of the pool here, but I will try and learn. I don't know how much I can contribute, but I just signed up for the Data-Bass site. I plan on looking at some charts of movies that are filtered and those that are not. I already did really quick and I can see what everyone is talking about now. I don't want to mess up this Star Trek thread with stuff like that so I will just do it on my own. It would be nice if there was a filtered/not filtered dedicated thread somewhere so it could easily be seen. Actually, how about on the Data Bass site, where the list the movies under what star it is, they just say "filtered" or "non-filtered" so rookies like me tongue.gif can try to understand this a bit more. Would TF3 be considered filtered? I mean it looks like it drops off but it turns back up at the end the end of the chart.

Transf 3 is not filtered to my eyes as there is still some solid content below 20hz and does not have a total drop off the cliff response like ID, Avengers, etc........I would ask over there though and get their opinion.

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post #191 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 09:38 AM
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Watched the 3D version last night, I'm not a huge Star Trek fan but really enjoyed the A/V. Of course we got tons of lens flair which got old quickly but not too big of a deal.

Plot wasn't all that deep, and it ended sooner than I thought it would... but still a very enjoyable movie and experience. Don't regret the blind buy.


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post #192 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 09:40 AM
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Rented the 2009 and loved it but never purchased it. Been wanting to see the new one but since i am waiting for my new house to be completed and i am in between ht's had not thought much about it...but at walmart today they had a bd pack with both movies. 2009 has vudu/uv and the new one has that, dvd and digital copy. These are 2d only and were $19 for the.pack. I grabbed one give the cost even though i will not watch it until i have a theater again. Check it out there were only 2.or 3 when i was there


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post #193 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

Hey Brad, I understand your concern however in rating a soundtrack I try to look at it as a whole which does of course include the quality of the bass and how effectively it supports the track's elements. I agree that it is important that low frequency effects not only support the track but also draw us into the film by providing tangible extension capable of energizing the room. This can certainly be achieved with sub bass frequencies that need not extend below 18hz especially considering the fact that the average system isn't capable of reproducing those frequencies. Having said that I will admit to reveling in those rare moments when ultra low frequency content provides bass that flows through the room as if on a soft cushion that palpably attaches itself to anything not securely nailed down.

I will consider adding an additional rating element to my reviews that references this. I am not certain if it will be reflected in the overall score but may be an add on. We'll see...


Regards,

Thanks for listening Ralph.

I know we are of like mind on this, and I can't ask for more than that.

Best,

Brad
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post #194 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Again, where's the evidence that these "filters" exist in the first place...or, at least are remotely implemented with any sort of discern or rigor?

Is it unimaginable that- for a MYRIAD of reasons- one film has lower and/or more frequent low extension than another, straightaway, without having a single connection to this assuaged "filtering"?

Tell me where I'm going wrong, please. It's an honest question. If one has zero access to the original masters and their levels/response how on earth could one make any kind of valid claims re their (proposed) differences (between the master and BD)?

James

Id like to comment. Im a frequenter over at www.film-tech.com, which is a forum for projectionists, cinema owners, and those in the film business such as sound editors. They speak at links on how for the Blu-Ray release of many films they change the mix from the commercial DCP mix to a near-field "home theater" mix. They speak of putting 20hz filters on the mix all the time, meaning all ULF isn't on the track anymore. The original mix for the cinema is mixed on a small but typical commercial cinema setup. The near-field mix is mixed on small monitors. This has been going on for years now. Not all studios do it but many do.

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post #195 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 11:34 AM
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Does anyone have the Target 3D version and notice a significantly quieter audio during the movie?

I bought the movie this morning and popped it in tonight. The previews and menus were plenty loud, but once the movie started it was significantly quieter. I cranked up my system to a level that should have made my ears bleed and it wasn't enough. I tried to 2D version on it was noticeably louder and more powerful.

I exchanged the disc tonight, but the replacement is exhibiting the exact same phenomenon. It's bad to the point that I don't want to watch the 3D version now. Help!

If you're watching on a PS3 like I am, it's because it's giving you DD and not Dolby HD which I guess the PS3 can't do on 3D disks.

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post #196 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 11:56 AM
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Transf 3 is not filtered to my eyes as there is still some solid content below 20hz and does not have a total drop off the cliff response like ID, Avengers, etc........I would ask over there though and get their opinion.
Thanks. I didn't think so either but I wanted to see if I was looking at it right.

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post #197 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 12:10 PM
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Picked up the 2D combo pack at BB during lunch today. Poker tonite but I'll be watching this tomorrow nite for sure!

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post #198 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 12:43 PM
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Took a look at the 2D version of this film this morning. I found the video to be overall excellent with deep blacks on my black enhanced Kuro 141, along with excellent detail and sharpness, I can do without the teal/orange fest but that was the director's intent. I would say that the video is clear;y reference. I can't say the same with the audio. It is very good but not reference for me. As far as bass is concerned, my sub goes down to 18hz and I didn't find the bass lacking. Was it as deep as some other films, no, not even as deep as the prior Star Trek film, but plenty deep for me. It surely didn't leave me thinking I wish it had more bass. My issue was with the sense of transparency of sound which for me, is the hallmark of a reference track. I found the front soundstage to lack a sense of depth, both front to back and side to side. It was if the soundstage was being squeezed in all four directions. The sound just didn't envelope me the way the very best tracks do. So for me, in my room, which is only about 11 x 16, I can't label this one as reference, falling just a tad short.
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post #199 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Took a look at the 2D version of this film this morning. I found the video to be overall excellent with deep blacks on my black enhanced Kuro 141, along with excellent detail and sharpness, I can do without the teal/orange fest but that was the director's intent. I would say that the video is clear;y reference. I can't say the same with the audio. It is very good but not reference for me. As far as bass is concerned, my sub goes down to 18hz and I didn't find the bass lacking. Was it as deep as some other films, no, not even as deep as the prior Star Trek film, but plenty deep for me. It surely didn't leave me thinking I wish it had more bass. My issue was with the sense of transparency of sound which for me, is the hallmark of a reference track. I found the front soundstage to lack a sense of depth, both front to back and side to side. It was if the soundstage was being squeezed in all four directions. The sound just didn't envelope me the way the very best tracks do. So for me, in my room, which is only about 11 x 16, I can't label this one as reference, falling just a tad short.

Greetings,

Thanks for sharing your impressions Joe... smile.gif


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post #200 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 01:25 PM
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Wow! this is hardly the place to be discussing movies with bass as there is already a thread dedicated to it with its own set of issues.

Ralph ! the age old adage applies " If it ain't broke ! don't fix it" wink.gif stay the course sir smile.gif your reviews have lead me to more enjoyment of cinema and your method of as a Whole with regards to a soundtrack eliminates as to whether or not this was good or that but did it lend itself well to the movie even if I agree or not at times! Job well done!

So come on guys this is a Star trek into Darkness review, a movie we've all anticipated and were excited about, this major derailment over bass ( which the movie has) that yes I love as well, but this is a bit pointless wink.gif
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post #201 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 01:37 PM
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I saw this movie last night in 3-D, and while I fell asleep near the end because I started watching it late, what I saw was riveting. The sound and picture is reference quality and it was an exciting ride for the duration of the movie. The 3-D was the best yet, and is a testament that 3-D is not dead. Morevover, the review of this movie is the best and most comprehensive review I've ever read, and it it quite accurate. This is the best Star Trek movie to date. cool.gif
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post #202 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 01:47 PM
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To pile on, the PS3 can bitstream HDMA and TrueHD on 2D BDs but can only bitstream HDMA for 3D BDs (TrueHD 3D BDs are downconverted to lossy DD). From what I've heard, there's no technical limitation on the PS3, the problem is that there is a licensing issue between Sony and Dolby and until Dolby gets paid, there won't be a firmware update to enable TrueHD when watching in the third dimension anytime soon. So pretty much all Paramount 3D BDs will only have their lossy sound played via PS3 (no matter for me, I bought an Elite BDP-62FD from Magnolia for $180 for this exact reason).

As for the movie itself, I loved it and while the PQ was outstanding, according to my butt-o-meter, Into Darkness seems to have a bit less bass than the first movie. That's fine, low bass does not a quality soundtrack make.
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post #203 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Wow! this is hardly the place to be discussing movies with bass as there is already a thread dedicated to it with its own set of issues.

Ralph ! the age old adage applies " If it ain't broke ! don't fix it" wink.gif stay the course sir smile.gif your reviews have lead me to more enjoyment of cinema and your method of as a Whole with regards to a soundtrack eliminates as to whether or not this was good or that but did it lend itself well to the movie even if I agree or not at times! Job well done!

So come on guys this is a Star trek into Darkness review, a movie we've all anticipated and were excited about, this major derailment over bass ( which the movie has) that yes I love as well, but this is a bit pointless wink.gif

I have the utmost respect for Ralph as a reviewer and otherwise, even if we dont always agree (how could we considering how subjective audio is and all the variables between setups/rooms). If we are out of line with this topic I am sure he will speak up and I/we of course would respect that and drop it. Having said that, we are at AVS and I think this is well worth exploring considering how passionate we are about audio. Lots of us find this a disturbing trend and it is well worth discussing IMO. Again though we of course will honor whatever Ralph asks. smile.gif

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post #204 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I have the utmost respect for Ralph as a reviewer and otherwise, even if we dont always agree (how could we considering how subjective audio is and all the variables between setups/rooms). If we are out of line with this topic I am sure he will speak up and I/we of course would respect that and drop it. Having said that, we are at AVS and I think this is well worth exploring considering how passionate we are about audio. Lots of us find this a disturbing trend and it is well worth discussing IMO. Again though we of course will honor whatever Ralph asks. smile.gif

Toe ! your respect is not in question, as I know all too well your contributions to this and many other threads smile.gif now having said that and with regards to the trend have no doubt it will indeed change for the better as more mixers chime in from time to time and begin to realize they have a quite discerning audience out there that care about every last drop of fidelity to be had in a soundtrack and as we have some fine examples of this out there already to which the guys at DB have already done a fine job of revealing those hidden gems which let's us know that there are mixers fully aware of the potential of letting it naturally roll off down low. Trust me the way things are these days trending on line in forums and other avenues are largely hard to ignore! Perhaps we should use the political method and attach the teal in video problem to the bill as well biggrin.gif

In all seriousness a poll on the matter should turn some of the right heads and see if we can get the ball rolling in the right direction with the desired result wink.gif
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post #205 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 03:24 PM
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Watched it last night (thanks amazon for being on time). Pure ST, so pure that predictable to the end. After Kirk resurrection, not sure what else can surprise fans in next picture. Too much classic gigs we remember from original motion pictures for my taste.
But I could be wrong, not sure. Maybe I am getting too old for this new stuff.

But... will watch it again this time in 3D probably... next year wink.gif
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post #206 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 03:27 PM
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This is the best Star Track movie to date. cool.gif

Agreed, best Star "Track" movie to date. Not so much in Star Trek category though. At least IMHO.
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post #207 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 04:00 PM
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I must say that watching it again, I am even more annoyed by the film than I was at the theater. The film does not wear well for me at all. This is a film that plays better the less exposure you have to the prior films or little experience with the original TV series. I am old enough to have actually watched all 3 seasons as a kid when they first aired on NBC.
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post #208 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 04:59 PM
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I've got a rental copy of this from NF, and I've noticed that when playing the 7.1 DTS-HD audio track for this movie, that the rears on my 9.1 set up will only output certain aspects of the movie sound track. Specifically just the sound effects intended for the rears! It will not play the vast amounts of music from the sound track through my rear speakers for some reason. I hear music from my other 7 speakers, but not my rears!

Anyone else notice this also????

I thought I had some sort of setup issue but I checked out a couple of other blu ray's and I got the full sound from the movie soundtrack through all of my speakers including the rears.

Anyone else see this also?

FWIW I tried some of the other soundtracks for this disc, the dolby digital tracks and I got music through my rears in addition to the sound effects intended for the rears.

Weird HUH?

Other than that weird minor issue the movie does sound awesome!

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post #209 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Wow! this is hardly the place to be discussing movies with bass as there is already a thread dedicated to it with its own set of issues.

Ralph ! the age old adage applies " If it ain't broke ! don't fix it" wink.gif stay the course sir smile.gif your reviews have lead me to more enjoyment of cinema and your method of as a Whole with regards to a soundtrack eliminates as to whether or not this was good or that but did it lend itself well to the movie even if I agree or not at times! Job well done!

So come on guys this is a Star trek into Darkness review, a movie we've all anticipated and were excited about, this major derailment over bass ( which the movie has) that yes I love as well, but this is a bit pointless wink.gif

Greetings,

Thanks audiofan1. Your support is much appreciated. smile.gif


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post #210 of 569 Old 09-11-2013, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I have the utmost respect for Ralph as a reviewer and otherwise, even if we dont always agree (how could we considering how subjective audio is and all the variables between setups/rooms). If we are out of line with this topic I am sure he will speak up and I/we of course would respect that and drop it. Having said that, we are at AVS and I think this is well worth exploring considering how passionate we are about audio. Lots of us find this a disturbing trend and it is well worth discussing IMO. Again though we of course will honor whatever Ralph asks. smile.gif


Greetings,

Thanks Todd. I respect your opinion and always appreciate your candid posts in the review forum. I see aspects of this discussion as relevant to some readers and in that light I have no issue with how it was progressed thus far. Thanks guys...smile.gif


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