Do you find the 'Low Frequency Extension' rating useful? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Do you find the Low Frequency Extension rating useful?
Yes, I find it to be useful 35 68.63%
No, I don't find it to be useful 10 19.61%
I have no real opinion either way 6 11.76%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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post #31 of 39 Old 06-27-2014, 08:08 AM
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I personally like the 'low frequency extension' rating and do check it with every review.

Thanks for all that you do here, Ralph!
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post #32 of 39 Old 06-27-2014, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozar View Post
I personally like the 'low frequency extension' rating and do check it with every review.

Thanks for all that you do here, Ralph!
Greetings,

Thanks for the feedback oz..!


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post #33 of 39 Old 06-27-2014, 09:07 AM
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Ralph,
I really enjoy you reviews overall anyway. TBH, the LFE metric you use now is fine. I don't have any issue with it. But because of my system, there have been movies that would probably rank low on that particular metric that I thought were really entertaining and had all the low end I need. The Avengers is one. Thor is another. With my Crowson that goes down to 5Hz I found both movies very enjoyable in the bass and shake aspect.

But let's look at a newer review. Take the movie The Raid 2(I still have to see or get the first one.) In it you rate Low Frequency Effects as 4 1/2 and even though it's not used in the overall rating, you rate the Low Frequency Extension as 2 1/2. So how are we to understand that. In your review you say " Low frequency detail is clean, well-articulated and authoritative as all points of contact seem to resonate with palpable bass impact".

So to me that means that it may have very decent bass with some good dynamics but it is not something that goes well below 20Hz? I am just asking. I really enjoy your reviews anyway and this extra criteria won't change that fact. I know it's a lot of work to do what you do and what the guys at data-bass are doing. I really use both sites to get an idea of what to expect. Here is just a quick example. Star Trek Into The Darkness. I think if I remember correctly you really liked the way this one sounded and thought the bass was very good. But going by their measurements the found that it only went to 19hz, well higher than some of the bass monsters, and had clipping all over the place. Now reading your review(I can't find it now), if I remember correctly you gave it very high marks for bass. Knowing both of these things I borrowed a copy to hear what it would sound like in my theater. BUT, because I knew it was recorded very loud, I watched it at a much lower level then I normally do. By doing that, and the fact that I have a Crowson to augment my sub system(it goes down to 5hz), I was able to have an enjoyable experience with that film. I was able to not hear the clipping and still got a tactile feel and a decent bass experience with the film. So that's what I do. I check out your review. If it gives the audio high marks, I go check out if data-bass has measured it and then I make a decision based on both sources. So please keep doing what you are doing the way you are doing it. It has helped me out a lot in what I might expect on my system.
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post #34 of 39 Old 06-27-2014, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post
Ralph,
I really enjoy you reviews overall anyway. TBH, the LFE metric you use now is fine. I don't have any issue with it. But because of my system, there have been movies that would probably rank low on that particular metric that I thought were really entertaining and had all the low end I need. The Avengers is one. Thor is another. With my Crowson that goes down to 5Hz I found both movies very enjoyable in the bass and shake aspect.

But let's look at a newer review. Take the movie The Raid 2(I still have to see or get the first one.) In it you rate Low Frequency Effects as 4 1/2 and even though it's not used in the overall rating, you rate the Low Frequency Extension as 2 1/2. So how are we to understand that. In your review you say " Low frequency detail is clean, well-articulated and authoritative as all points of contact seem to resonate with palpable bass impact".

So to me that means that it may have very decent bass with some good dynamics but it is not something that goes well below 20Hz? I am just asking
. I really enjoy your reviews anyway and this extra criteria won't change that fact. I know it's a lot of work to do what you do and what the guys at data-bass are doing. I really use both sites to get an idea of what to expect. Here is just a quick example. Star Trek Into The Darkness. I think if I remember correctly you really liked the way this one sounded and thought the bass was very good. But going by their measurements the found that it only went to 19hz, well below some of the bass monsters, and had clipping all over the place. Now reading your review(I can't find it now), if I remember correctly you gave it very high marks for bass. Knowing both of these things I borrowed a copy to hear what it would sound like in my theater. BUT, because I knew it was recorded very loud, I watched it at a much lower level then I normally do. By doing that, and the fact that I have a Crowson to augment my sub system(it goes down to 5hz), I was able to have an enjoyable experience with that film. I was able to not hear the clipping and still got a tactile feel and a decent bass experience with the film. So that's what I do. I check out your review. If it gives the audio high marks, I go check out if data-bass has measured it and then I make a decision based on both sources. So please keep doing what you are doing the way you are doing it. It has helped me out a lot in what I might expect on my system.
Greetings,

Thanks for offering your thoughts Mike.

Regarding the area I highlighted above, yes, you have an understanding of the thought process with respect to the example you cited. I am glad to see that you opt to avail yourself of both resources. For members like yourself who consider ultra low frequency content important, it's a great way to look at things.


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post #35 of 39 Old 06-27-2014, 10:49 AM
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I have to throw my $.02 in here because... well, posting on this subject has been my main reason for coming to AVS for 11+ years.

In my room, I do not need to hear <20 Hz content. I have a system for low end that is +/-3dB from 3-120 Hz (or crossover, whichever is selected to determine the top end of the subwoofer) at reference level with headroom and I enjoy <20 Hz content with senses other than the sense of hearing. IOW, if my sense of hearing could be totally shut off during reference level playback, I could easily tell you if a soundtrack has <20 Hz content.

So can anyone, and I've proven it countless times over the years, by simply playing a scene with <20 Hz content with that part of the reproduction filtered out and then again with no filter, for listeners of all ages, both genders, differing degrees of hearing acuity and including guests who wouldn't be able to define low frequency if their life depended on it.

<20 Hz content is most certainly not fleeting. Unless the effects are filtered (which should always be noted in any evaluation, subjective or objective, IMO), the content is always full bandwidth and, therefore, occurs with all of the LFE to a lesser or greater degree. This is the crux of the matter.

People have argued that <20 Hz does not matter to them. How more irrelevant a comment could there be in a discussion of any audio/video discussion? Would anyone tolerate a comment in a video discussion that the color red is so insignificant as to be unnecessary to the film? How about shutting off your tweeters because they only play 2-1/2 octaves, your hearing rolls off at halfway into those 2-1/2 octaves anyway or the extreme high end hurts your ears?

Any evaluation is invalid if it does not cover the gamut of the content. Subjective eval has no such boundaries and, quite frankly, contains its own dictionary of infinitely combined terms, many of which combinations are simply incomprehensible. But, add the objective data and suddenly the subjective wordage appears in a new and much more meaningful light.

When Super 8 was released to disc there was a debate about the shrillness and lack of low end extension of the train wreck scene. Imagine that the people who said it sounded fine were listening to a HTIB with no playback ability <35 Hz or >8k Hz. One member said he didn't think the scene was harsh, the post right after that was another member saying he used the scene to crack glass. This is (and was) a circle-jerk discussion that has no end. Then, the data was posted. Filtered at 20 Hz with clipping.

The forum at AVS is titled: Subwoofers, Bass and Transducers. Transducers would be useless if one had to "hear" <20 Hz content. They are a good alternative for those who would like to experience the difference without building, placing and tweaking a full bandwidth subwoofer system. Either way, haven't we evolved to the point of accepting the basic facts of the matter regarding the dynamic range and bandwidth capability of modern digital audio yet? Really?
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post #36 of 39 Old 06-27-2014, 11:18 AM
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Took you long enough Dave!



Almost PM'd you, James, Scott and a few other of the ULF ambassadors with a link to this thread.

Figured you'd find it soon enough though...
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post #37 of 39 Old 07-01-2014, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings,

I would like to thank everyone that took the time to participate and/or comment in this poll thread. Based on the results and the discussion the rating will remain.


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post #38 of 39 Old 07-02-2014, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thread unstuck..

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post #39 of 39 Old 07-04-2014, 01:57 AM
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I would have voted no, the same reason Nube explained it, but then again many people are interested in subjective opinions. I'm ok with subjective opinions, as I give it quiet a bit too, but I'm no " official reviewer" of anything. If I was I would certainly include objective data, whenever I could. YMMV.

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