Do you find the 'Low Frequency Extension' rating useful? - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Do you find the Low Frequency Extension rating useful?
Yes, I find it to be useful 35 68.63%
No, I don't find it to be useful 10 19.61%
I have no real opinion either way 6 11.76%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 39 Old 06-20-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you find the 'Low Frequency Extension' rating useful?

Greetings,

As many of you who read my reviews on a regular basis know, back in late February I opted to modify my review template's audio ratings by changing the Low Frequency Extension rating to Low Frequency Effects and adding an unrated element called "Low Frequency Extension". Here is what I originally posted regarding this:

Quote:
Greetings,

I have made a modification to my review template in the audio ratings category. I have changed the bass rating category from Low Frequency Extension to Low Frequency Effects. The rating parameter for Low Frequency Effects will continue to be evaluated as I always have which takes into account the track's low frequency support as it pertains to the overall blend/balance within the surround mix.

I have added an additional non-factored rating element that will be called Low Frequency Extension. This will be found beneath the other audio rating elements and will be scored from 0.5 to 5.0 (like the others) however it won't be factored in the overall audio rating. The purpose of this addition is to provide some frame of reference for readers interested in my perspective on the presence of ultra low frequency content in the audio mix. I have made my viewpoint on how I rate soundtracks on Blu-ray clear however this will allow readers at a glance to get a feel for this aspect of the presentation.

That may or may not mean that the presence of ultra low content is pervasive, as many times it is momentary/fleeting, however I usually add my thoughts on that in my comments. This will not be done using measurements but will be a subjective analysis based upon what I hear. In the event there is nothing applicable with respect to the new rating element for Low Frequency Extension within a particular soundtrack (my review of Samson and Delilah is an example) it will be marked NA for not applicable.

I will give this and try and see how it goes as I am aware that there are those that follow our reviews who have expressed an interest in this area.

As always we appreciate your support and while we don't always hit the nail on the head it surely isn't due to a lack of trying.


Best regards,




I figured it was time to check in with you all to see what your opinions are on the usefulness of the Low Frequency Extension element. The Low Frequency Effects rating will remain as is as I feel that terminology is more appropriate.

So kindly check in above and let me know what you think. Keep it, get rid of it or you have no real opinion either way. I appreciate everyone's input/opinion and respect your right to it. This poll is intended to derive constructive feedback and not as a venue to incite inflammatory discussion/debate. Everyone is reminded to maintain proper decorum.

Thanks as always for your continued support. You guys are the best..

Regards,

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post #2 of 39 Old 06-21-2014, 02:08 AM
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Add it in Ralph.
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post #3 of 39 Old 06-21-2014, 04:43 AM
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Make it happen, anything that can help better gauge a movies sound is alright by me.

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post #4 of 39 Old 06-21-2014, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings,

Thanks guys.

Actually I have been using it since late February and this poll is simply to get some idea of whether or not readers have found it useful thus far.


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post #5 of 39 Old 06-21-2014, 11:10 AM
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Ralph,


How are you gauging the LFExtenstion? Are you using a mic? Just was wondering since I didn't see you explain how in your post above.

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post #6 of 39 Old 06-21-2014, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiptouz View Post
Ralph,


How are you gauging the LFExtenstion? Are you using a mic? Just was wondering since I didn't see you explain how in your post above.
Greetings,

It's purely a subjective analysis gauged against my equipment and room (gain). I simply don't have the time to take measurements, compile/compute the data and include that in reviews. I think much of that would be wasted on the majority of those reading (not a slight in any way). There are other far more clinical resources available such as Data-Bass that can provide charts etc. for those looking to get detailed analysis.

My intention here is to provide my perspective regarding the presence/potential of ULF. That may be useful to those interested in it which may lead them to resources like Data-Bass and our very own New Master List of Bass in Movies with Frequency Charts Thread here on AVS.

Regards,
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post #7 of 39 Old 06-22-2014, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post
Greetings,

It's purely a subjective analysis gauged against my equipment and room (gain). I simply don't have the time to take measurements, compile/compute the data and include that in reviews. I think much of that would be wasted on the majority of those reading (not a slight in any way). There are other far more clinical resources available such as Data-Bass that can provide charts etc. for those looking to get detailed analysis.

My intention here is to provide my perspective regarding the presence/potential of ULF. That may be useful to those interested in it which may lead them to resources like Data-Bass and our very own New Master List of Bass in Movies with Frequency Charts Thread here on AVS.

Regards,
Thanks for the Oustanding review.
I found your review to be very helpfull when it come to the sound and video quality of my future purchase.

Keep on the good work and thank you for putting so much time into it.

Ray
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post #8 of 39 Old 06-22-2014, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Thanks for the Oustanding review.
I found your review to be very helpfull when it come to the sound and video quality of my future purchase.

Keep on the good work and thank you for putting so much time into it.

Ray
Greetings,

You're very welcome Ray. Thanks for your support and the feedback...


Regards,
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post #9 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 01:32 PM
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Mr. Potts,

Thank you for engaging the community on this subject; it's been argued at length over the last few months in the Master List of Bass in Movies thread you quoted above. I voted that No, I don't find it to be useful, and I'd like to explain the logic of why I feel that way.

While I think that the rated category of Low Frequency Effects is a great subjective bellweather of a mix's bass content from your perspective, and I value it, I do not think that the added Low Frequency Extension category is useful, whether rated or not. The reasons for this are varied, but a snapshot of my hopefully logical train of thought is below. Apologies for it being so long.

1) The phrase "Low Frequency Extension" implies the depths in the frequency range to which particular content digs. However, it does not imply audibility or amplitude of that content; merely its presence is implied. According to the Dolby LFE channel spec, the extension for content mixed into that channel or redirected to it is from 3-120Hz. This is an important definition of the usable extension Dolby expects from the LFE channel.

2) It has been scientifically established that people can hear below 20Hz, but at lower sensitivity than above that frequency. So, you need louder output below 20Hz to hear it, and likely also to detect it through tactile and other sensory mechanisms in the body. That's just the Equal Loudness Contours at work. Here's a chart showing some peer-reviewed experiments detailing the dB levels at which most people can hear very low frequencies:


(Leventhall, G 2007 'What is infrasound?', Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology, vol 93)

Not to belabor that point, but a great primer (and long read) on the science of human hearing below 20Hz can be found at the links contained in this post I made a couple years ago:

Summary of the research on hearing below 20Hz

3) You have good subs, but they are ported and, by definition, don't have much output below tuning. Your PB13U + PC12 system likely can't dig much below 20Hz, and certainly not much below 15Hz in any meaningful way, regardless of tuning. (Reference the measurements by Josh Ricci on that sub here: http://www.data-bass.com/systems)

4) Because your system likely cannot reproduce much below 15-20Hz, it is unlikely that you're able to distinguish between the presence of content much below that cutoff.

5) Due to the aforementioned considerations, your perspective and perception of Low Frequency Extension is likely limited to around 20Hz. This leaves out the lowest few octaves of the Dolby spec for LFE extension.

6) Due to the research done on the Equal Loudness Contours, scientists have found out that we are very likely to perceive louder sounds in the LFE bandwidth as seemingly more impressive, important, potent, and often lower frequency than they actually are because it's harder for our ears to distinguish pitch differences when content gets that low.

7) Because your system can't reproduce it, and you can't experience it, I find that the Extension category, rated or unrated, is completely immaterial and arbitrary. It's also likely that your impressions on this category are incorrect, for the above reasons. This isn't a personal slight, it's just a case of the above erroneously shaping your subjective impressions, and it's been borne out in many Data-Bass measurements of the same content you rated.

Lastly, I don't think Low Frequency Extension is a very important category, given the above or not. The Extension category feels like you're trying to do something that has no value because it has no logic behind it, and its demonstrably inaccurate. Subjective reviews - those without methodological, repeatable testing - have value, and most folks here appreciate yours. But, I think the Low Frequency Effects category is all that's required for your movie reviews, especially considering the extension of almost all the movies you review is already being measured and rated at the non-commercial, community-driven Data-Bass forum. (Note: links to the measurements, ratings, and methodology for the Data-Bass content measurement thread can be found at that link or in my sig.)

To help supplement your reviews with measurable extension data, I'd be happy to add a link to the Data-Bass measurements of any of your reviewed movies that we measure.

Thanks for reading!

nube

P.S.

If you have in-room frequency response graphs that measure your output at 10Hz or below, that would be a great indicator of your ability to judge the extension. If not, may I suggest leveraging your position here at AVS to invite experienced industry and lay members to come measure your system? It would shed light on what you have, where you could do better, how to improve the response of your room, and it likely wouldn't take more than a couple of hours to test.
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post #10 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 01:50 PM
 
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If you're going to be rating the bass extension, why not just put the blu-ray in your computer, run speclabs to see the extension, and report it. Or like nube said, just use his measured data. Extension is an objective value, not subjective. The subjective part of bass would fall under "bass sound mixing" or "bass execution" which I think would be a good category to rate, as you can give your opinion if the movie's low frequency sounded good with the overall track and if explosions sounded like explosions.
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post #11 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 02:16 PM
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Nube, good post above. Nice job explaining your thoughts.

One comment about his sub capability. The pb13u and likely the pc12 do have very useable output at 16hz in their respective low tune mode.

The pb13u measured 105db at 16hz and the pc12 is said to be 3db down from that. Together, that's the equivalent of ~4 18in SI drivers in a sealed design at 16hz in his 2500cf room.

EDIT: While it doesn't change your point about reaching the bottom octaves and the utility of his metric, I'd say he does have a capable system down to 16hz where many movies have their sweet spot, IMO. Yes, there are still those movies that go below that and he won't be able to weigh in appropriately, but being capable to 16hz as opposed to 20hz subjectively gives more weight to what he's experiencing for a broader population of movies.
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post #12 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 02:24 PM
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Hi Ralph

I'm fine either way on this one as it can be useful to some, while not enough for others and I like that you referenced Data-bass if one seeks to go deeper down the rabbit hole. At the end of the day I feel I can still come to your thread and talk movies and get an invaluable opinion and a one refreshing as well, this along with a good idea of what to expect. The rest ? well its "gravy"
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post #13 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Greetings,

Thanks for weighing in guys I appreciate your input.

Nube, I can see your reasoning and there is truth to your articulated response. I have explained the purpose for why I opted to include this additional rating. It was never intended to be strictly construed especially without supporting data. Part of what I do here is to inspire thought regarding sound/video quality as well as to offer our community a resource when considering which Blu-rays to buy/rent.

I respect the work that goes into the measuring/calculations on site like Data-bass and feel that it, like the work we do here in the review forum, is a resource for those that may find it of value.

AVS isn't my first rodeo and I have tested my room's response and had contacts in the industry confirm my findings. I am confident in both my setup and equipment although that shouldn't be taken to mean that your points aren't valid and not being taken under advisement.

Let me reiterate my thanks to you for your passion for this subject. I am not thin skinned and have no trouble with constructive criticism especially when it is done using reasonable decorum.

I will take both what you have said as well as the outcome of this poll into consideration and go from there.

As I said before..you guys are the best!


Regards,
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post #14 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 05:05 PM
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I might expand more on this at some point Ralph, but to get to the point, I do find your extension non rated category useful. We both use the same PB13U sub, so I am always interested to read about your subjective experience. In my room and going off the ULF thread, my 3 PB13s and 12/2 in my sealed 1500cf room have 5 star "above reference" output down to 16hz and even at 12.5hz, I am still rated at 4.5 "reference" level. Even though we don't dig down into single digits, I feel that our PB13s are certainly good enough to throw out a subjective opinion on extension in general even if we don't hit that last bit of depth. Having said that, I can certainly understand where Nube is coming from as well in his very well thought out/written post, but IMO I still find value in the extension category for reasons mentioned above and hope it stays put.

As I have mentioned before as well, I applaud the change recently made in the rated part of the review scale from LFE extension to effects which makes much more sense with how your reviews are done. As you know, I had been pushing for this change for a while and was glad to see it happen.

Hope it goes without saying at this point that I am a fan and just know that I appreciate all your hard work! I think you do an excellent job overall and I always enjoy reading your reviews sir! No way I could do half as good as you all things considered! Keep up the good work and thanks again.
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post #15 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 05:27 PM
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dominguez1,

All of what you said is only maybe the case if Mr. Potts has them in the lower tuning, which I haven't seen noted either way. Even then, that's no guarantee or predictor of his response in-room, at the listening position. The point is, if the subjective rating for this category is demonstrably inaccurate pretty frequently, what utility does it have, especially when there is a resource that verifies exactly what extension a particular mix has? I haven't really seen anyone address that yet, especially Toe.

Ralph,

Purely out of curiosity, would you please help us by noting what tuning you have your subs in, and posting some graphs or describing the frequency response below 120Hz, so we can get an idea of what you're working with? Note, however, that I don't think your in-room response helps support this unrated category, regardless, because it's a subjective rating of something that is, inherently, objective in nature. (That's the TL;DR summary of my argument before.)

I do appreciate constructive criticism as well, and prefer it to pats on the back. As before, I'm glad you're engaging us and the subject. Thanks!
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post #16 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post
dominguez1,

All of what you said is only maybe the case if Mr. Potts has them in the lower tuning, which I haven't seen noted either way. Even then, that's no guarantee or predictor of his response in-room, at the listening position. The point is, if the subjective rating for this category is demonstrably inaccurate pretty frequently, what utility does it have, especially when there is a resource that verifies exactly what extension a particular mix has?
Fair enough nube. I agree we need more info.

If he does use the low tuning, I feel good about what I said. But agree to confirm, especially if the info is readily available.
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post #17 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post
dominguez1,

All of what you said is only maybe the case if Mr. Potts has them in the lower tuning, which I haven't seen noted either way. Even then, that's no guarantee or predictor of his response in-room, at the listening position. The point is, if the subjective rating for this category is demonstrably inaccurate pretty frequently, what utility does it have, especially when there is a resource that verifies exactly what extension a particular mix has? I haven't really seen anyone address that yet, especially Toe.

Ralph,

Purely out of curiosity, would you please help us by noting what tuning you have your subs in, and posting some graphs or describing the frequency response below 120Hz, so we can get an idea of what you're working with? Note, however, that I don't think your in-room response helps support this unrated category, regardless, because it's a subjective rating of something that is, inherently, objective in nature. (That's the TL;DR summary of my argument before.)

I do appreciate constructive criticism as well, and prefer it to pats on the back. As before, I'm glad you're engaging us and the subject. Thanks!

For me Nube, it is simply entertaining to read about Ralph's subjective experience (and the subjective experience of others as well) even though it is not objective in nature. I am ok with this. I also frequent data-bass as you know to get the straight objective take. Both have purpose for me and it's ok that only one has purpose for you. I understand your points and don't disagree in general, but the question was if the "non rated extension" category has purpose and for me it does. Obviously if you don't find value in it, you can choose to skip this portion of the review if it stays as is. I love data bass, but I don't want every site or review to be data-bass as I still enjoy some "without a net" subjective opinions even if they don't end up lining up with the facts since for me it is fun to read about people's experiences, especially since not everyone runs a completely flat response anyway (I run hot below about 50hz or so......).

Also, my "pats on the back" are genuine as I very much like Ralph and his reviews. I have offered constructive criticism over the years when I have felt the need to do so which I really don't at this point as Ralph's reviews are great as is IMO and have purpose for many of us. To get a much more objective take, we have data-bass...........I enjoy and read both.

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post #18 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 06:27 PM
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Toe,

The pats on the back comment wasn't directed at anyone at all, not even thinly veiled. I was only referring to myself.

As for everything else you said, I hear ya, but couldn't that all be entirely summed up in the Low Frequency Effects category as-is? I just see no purpose for the other category's existence because it's all guesswork for something we have hard data on, and it varies significantly with no apparent correlation to the actual, measured extension.
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post #19 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post
Toe,

The pats on the back comment wasn't directed at anyone at all, not even thinly veiled. I was only referring to myself.

As for everything else you said, I hear ya, but couldn't that all be entirely summed up in the Low Frequency Effects category as-is? I just see no purpose for the other category's existence because it's all guesswork for something we have hard data on, and it varies significantly with no apparent correlation to the actual, measured extension.
I really don't see why it matters to be honest. It's a subjective opinion with his gear in his room with his response and it goes without saying that it may or may not line up with the objective measurments, but it's still entertaining to read for some of us. Just to be clear though, I am fine if it stays or goes even though I would prefer it to stay. I am certainly not so attached to it to spend more valuable time debating it. I have stated my opinion on the matter and I understand your points as well. If it bothers you enough, carry on.
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post #20 of 39 Old 06-25-2014, 10:47 PM
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Leave it in Ralph there are many that appreciate your effort. If people don't like it they know where the door is
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post #21 of 39 Old 06-26-2014, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post
Greetings,

It's purely a subjective analysis gauged against my equipment and room (gain). I simply don't have the time to take measurements, compile/compute the data and include that in reviews. I think much of that would be wasted on the majority of those reading (not a slight in any way). There are other far more clinical resources available such as Data-Bass that can provide charts etc. for those looking to get detailed analysis.

My intention here is to provide my perspective regarding the presence/potential of ULF. That may be useful to those interested in it which may lead them to resources like Data-Bass and our very own New Master List of Bass in Movies with Frequency Charts Thread here on AVS.

Regards,
Ralph, I was conflicted on how to vote when I read your poll because every time I have read a review of yours, I take any comments about "bass" or "extension" with a grain of salt for the rationale outlined by nube below.

That said, I went ahead and voted "Yes, I find it useful" with a caveat I will elaborate on below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post
Mr. Potts,

Thank you for engaging the community on this subject; it's been argued at length over the last few months in the Master List of Bass in Movies thread you quoted above. I voted that No, I don't find it to be useful, and I'd like to explain the logic of why I feel that way.

While I think that the rated category of Low Frequency Effects is a great subjective bellweather of a mix's bass content from your perspective, and I value it, I do not think that the added Low Frequency Extension category is useful, whether rated or not. The reasons for this are varied, but a snapshot of my hopefully logical train of thought is below. Apologies for it being so long.

1) The phrase "Low Frequency Extension" implies the depths in the frequency range to which particular content digs. However, it does not imply audibility or amplitude of that content; merely its presence is implied. According to the Dolby LFE channel spec, the extension for content mixed into that channel or redirected to it is from 3-120Hz. This is an important definition of the usable extension Dolby expects from the LFE channel.

2) It has been scientifically established that people can hear below 20Hz, but at lower sensitivity than above that frequency. So, you need louder output below 20Hz to hear it, and likely also to detect it through tactile and other sensory mechanisms in the body. That's just the Equal Loudness Contours at work. Here's a chart showing some peer-reviewed experiments detailing the dB levels at which most people can hear very low frequencies:


(Leventhall, G 2007 'What is infrasound?', Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology, vol 93)

Not to belabor that point, but a great primer (and long read) on the science of human hearing below 20Hz can be found at the links contained in this post I made a couple years ago:

Summary of the research on hearing below 20Hz

3) You have good subs, but they are ported and, by definition, don't have much output below tuning. Your PB13U + PC12 system likely can't dig much below 20Hz, and certainly not much below 15Hz in any meaningful way, regardless of tuning. (Reference the measurements by Josh Ricci on that sub here: http://www.data-bass.com/systems)

4) Because your system likely cannot reproduce much below 15-20Hz, it is unlikely that you're able to distinguish between the presence of content much below that cutoff.

5) Due to the aforementioned considerations, your perspective and perception of Low Frequency Extension is likely limited to around 20Hz. This leaves out the lowest few octaves of the Dolby spec for LFE extension.

6) Due to the research done on the Equal Loudness Contours, scientists have found out that we are very likely to perceive louder sounds in the LFE bandwidth as seemingly more impressive, important, potent, and often lower frequency than they actually are because it's harder for our ears to distinguish pitch differences when content gets that low.

7) Because your system can't reproduce it, and you can't experience it, I find that the Extension category, rated or unrated, is completely immaterial and arbitrary. It's also likely that your impressions on this category are incorrect, for the above reasons. This isn't a personal slight, it's just a case of the above erroneously shaping your subjective impressions, and it's been borne out in many Data-Bass measurements of the same content you rated.

Lastly, I don't think Low Frequency Extension is a very important category, given the above or not. The Extension category feels like you're trying to do something that has no value because it has no logic behind it, and its demonstrably inaccurate. Subjective reviews - those without methodological, repeatable testing - have value, and most folks here appreciate yours. But, I think the Low Frequency Effects category is all that's required for your movie reviews, especially considering the extension of almost all the movies you review is already being measured and rated at the non-commercial, community-driven Data-Bass forum. (Note: links to the measurements, ratings, and methodology for the Data-Bass content measurement thread can be found at that link or in my sig.)

To help supplement your reviews with measurable extension data, I'd be happy to add a link to the Data-Bass measurements of any of your reviewed movies that we measure.

Thanks for reading!

nube

P.S.

If you have in-room frequency response graphs that measure your output at 10Hz or below, that would be a great indicator of your ability to judge the extension. If not, may I suggest leveraging your position here at AVS to invite experienced industry and lay members to come measure your system? It would shed light on what you have, where you could do better, how to improve the response of your room, and it likely wouldn't take more than a couple of hours to test.
Outstanding post nube. Spoken like a true ambassador of the lowest octaves!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post
Greetings,

Thanks for weighing in guys I appreciate your input.

Nube, I can see your reasoning and there is truth to your articulated response. I have explained the purpose for why I opted to include this additional rating. It was never intended to be strictly construed especially without supporting data. Part of what I do here is to inspire thought regarding sound/video quality as well as to offer our community a resource when considering which Blu-rays to buy/rent.

I respect the work that goes into the measuring/calculations on site like Data-bass and feel that it, like the work we do here in the review forum, is a resource for those that may find it of value.

AVS isn't my first rodeo and I have tested my room's response and had contacts in the industry confirm my findings. I am confident in both my setup and equipment although that shouldn't be taken to mean that your points aren't valid and not being taken under advisement.

Let me reiterate my thanks to you for your passion for this subject. I am not thin skinned and have no trouble with constructive criticism especially when it is done using reasonable decorum.

I will take both what you have said as well as the outcome of this poll into consideration and go from there.

As I said before..you guys are the best!

Regards,
Ralph, the caveat I was referring to earlier...

How about you work in collaboration with nube/data-bass/or other "XYZ* knowledgeable resource, when establishing your extension/bass response rating.

While it may take some coordination up front to get everyone on the same page, IMO it would be a game changer to read one of your reviews and not have to double check data-bass and/or the AVS Master Bass List in Movies to confirm your "subjective" opinion. Just simply providing a link to either (or both) resources for objective data would be a HUGE factor in ensuring that I take the time to read all of your reviews.

In fact, with the Master Bass List thread being so long and cumbersome to navigate, if you provided a direct link to the objective measurements, I would be sure to use ALL of your review threads as a reference point instead of trying to scourer through the Master Bass List thread for the information.

Two birds...one stone...Increase in traffic for your reviews.


---------------------------------------------------------------
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Looking forward to your next review.
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post #22 of 39 Old 06-26-2014, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post
dominguez1,

All of what you said is only maybe the case if Mr. Potts has them in the lower tuning, which I haven't seen noted either way. Even then, that's no guarantee or predictor of his response in-room, at the listening position. The point is, if the subjective rating for this category is demonstrably inaccurate pretty frequently, what utility does it have, especially when there is a resource that verifies exactly what extension a particular mix has? I haven't really seen anyone address that yet, especially Toe.

Ralph,

Purely out of curiosity, would you please help us by noting what tuning you have your subs in, and posting some graphs or describing the frequency response below 120Hz, so we can get an idea of what you're working with? Note, however, that I don't think your in-room response helps support this unrated category, regardless, because it's a subjective rating of something that is, inherently, objective in nature. (That's the TL;DR summary of my argument before.)

I do appreciate constructive criticism as well, and prefer it to pats on the back. As before, I'm glad you're engaging us and the subject. Thanks!

Greetings,

dominguez1 is correct regarding the tuning I use. Having said that I want to reiterate my purpose for the subject of this discussion. My intention here is to provide my perspective regarding the presence/potential of ULF in the soundtrack of discs that I have . That may be useful to those interested in it and should that invoke the desire for further investigation there are the aforementioned resources available to provide better analysis/accuracy.

I agree with nube when he says that a subjective rating of Low Frequency Extension more often than not isn't going to be viably accurate. I believe this to be true regardless of the innate abilities of a particular system. As I stated earlier, the use of it here isn't designed to provide the type of data that would be considered useful for listeners seeking to gather the points at which a soundtrack ebbs and flows into the depths of infrasonic territory. It is simply meant to offer those reading another layer/possibility of the potential of a soundtrack to deliver an engaging listening experience.

I'll leave the bit by bit analysis up to those who have both a passion for ULF and the time to measure/compile the data associated with it. I think it's great that we have members within our community here that enjoy/understand its relevance and place.

As a writer my goal is to provide the readership with my perspective on the material. I do understand that I have a responsibility to ensure that I come as close to providing an accurate snapshot of what I see and hear as possible. I am certainly not infallible and do make mistakes but I take what I do here very seriously and make every attempt to be as close to the mark as I can. Generally speaking I believe that my record speaks for itself as I would like to hope that I get it right more often than not.

I honestly didn't intend to spark debate but wanted to get a feel from you guys as to whether you found this rating to be something you wanted to see continue or not. I am in agreement with those that have said should the rating stay it certainly isn't something you need to bother with if you don't find it to be of use.

Regardless I hope that you continue to follow our reviews as I think it's a viable function that adds to the appeal of our excellent community here at AVS.


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post #23 of 39 Old 06-26-2014, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Ralph, I was conflicted on how to vote when I read your poll because every time I have read a review of yours, I take any comments about "bass" or "extension" with a grain of salt for the rationale outlined by nube below.

That said, I went ahead and voted "Yes, I find it useful" with a caveat I will elaborate on below.



Outstanding post nube. Spoken like a true ambassador of the lowest octaves!



Ralph, the caveat I was referring to earlier...

How about you work in collaboration with nube/data-bass/or other "XYZ* knowledgeable resource, when establishing your extension/bass response rating.

While it may take some coordination up front to get everyone on the same page, IMO it would be a game changer to read one of your reviews and not have to double check data-bass and/or the AVS Master Bass List in Movies to confirm your "subjective" opinion. Just simply providing a link to either (or both) resources for objective data would be a HUGE factor in ensuring that I take the time to read all of your reviews.

In fact, with the Master Bass List thread being so long and cumbersome to navigate, if you provided a direct link to the objective measurements, I would be sure to use ALL of your review threads as a reference point instead of trying to scourer through the Master Bass List thread for the information.

Two birds...one stone...Increase in traffic for your reviews.


---------------------------------------------------------------
No no, I'm not available for hire. These good ideas are always free...

Looking forward to your next review.
Greetings,

I am certainly open to this popalock. I wouldn't want to add to anyone's workload but would be happy to include any supporting links sent to me in my reviews. I agree that it would provide great info as well as the potential to inspire readers to find out more.


Regards,
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I voted Yes.
I find your reviews refreshing and pretty much on the money and I also look at the bass extension on your reviews. With a lot of people on this board owning ID subs, myself included I feel that if you can feel or hear the bass extension in the movie I also with similar subs will feel and hear them. I have to take the bass for what it is worth with my system even if that means I can not reproduce the tunes below port tuning. If I get to 12 hz and it drops like a rock, so be it. It is what it is and I know I may be missing some lower but will it impact me from the a rental to a purchase, no, just means at I am unable to get that low, doesn't mean the movie won't still give me a seat rumbling experience.
Carry on with your great reviews.
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post #25 of 39 Old 06-26-2014, 08:44 AM
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An important subject and happy to see the type of discussion going on here. I've been very torn lately about movie purchases. I'm extremely annoyed by the studios for two things:

1. The lack of HD sound on rentals. If I rent a movie because I'm unsure I want to own it, then don't rip me off because I will NOT buy that movie, even if I enjoyed the movie. Again, I will NOT buy the movie as a form of protest for what the studios are doing. This form of consumer leverage will never leverage me into purchasing a movie, it'll only deter me.

2. High passing the LFE channel. This is a sick practice and I don't have any reasonable explanation for why a studio would do this. As such, I've decided that I will use my consumer voice, as above, to tell the studios this is unacceptable. Even if I enjoy the movie, if the LFE is high passed, I will NOT purchase that movie. And just to reinforce this, I WILL purchase movies I may not have, if the LFE is measurably AND subjectively (that's where you come in Ralph, thank you) shown to be well done.

Yes, my blu ray purchases have, unfortunately, become mostly about these two things. In a world of pirating, I'm flabbergasted why paying customers like myself get the shaft. Speaking of which, if the studio are listening (doubtful), knock it off with those anti-piracy ads. I didn't steal your movie. I paid good money for it. I shouldn't have be bothered by that. I don't recall seeing one recently so maybe they've quit that, hopefully.
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post #26 of 39 Old 06-26-2014, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
I might expand more on this at some point Ralph, but to get to the point, I do find your extension non rated category useful. We both use the same PB13U sub, so I am always interested to read about your subjective experience. In my room and going off the ULF thread, my 3 PB13s and 12/2 in my sealed 1500cf room have 5 star "above reference" output down to 16hz and even at 12.5hz, I am still rated at 4.5 "reference" level. Even though we don't dig down into single digits, I feel that our PB13s are certainly good enough to throw out a subjective opinion on extension in general even if we don't hit that last bit of depth. Having said that, I can certainly understand where Nube is coming from as well in his very well thought out/written post, but IMO I still find value in the extension category for reasons mentioned above and hope it stays put.

As I have mentioned before as well, I applaud the change recently made in the rated part of the review scale from LFE extension to effects which makes much more sense with how your reviews are done. As you know, I had been pushing for this change for a while and was glad to see it happen.

Hope it goes without saying at this point that I am a fan and just know that I appreciate all your hard work! I think you do an excellent job overall and I always enjoy reading your reviews sir! No way I could do half as good as you all things considered! Keep up the good work and thanks again.

Greetings,

As always Todd your participation and support both in the review forum and the AVS community is greatly appreciated.


Regards,
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post #27 of 39 Old 06-26-2014, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
An important subject and happy to see the type of discussion going on here. I've been very torn lately about movie purchases. I'm extremely annoyed by the studios for two things:

1. The lack of HD sound on rentals. If I rent a movie because I'm unsure I want to own it, then don't rip me off because I will NOT buy that movie, even if I enjoyed the movie. Again, I will NOT buy the movie as a form of protest for what the studios are doing. This form of consumer leverage will never leverage me into purchasing a movie, it'll only deter me.

2. High passing the LFE channel. This is a sick practice and I don't have any reasonable explanation for why a studio would do this. As such, I've decided that I will use my consumer voice, as above, to tell the studios this is unacceptable. Even if I enjoy the movie, if the LFE is high passed, I will NOT purchase that movie. And just to reinforce this, I WILL purchase movies I may not have, if the LFE is measurably AND subjectively (that's where you come in Ralph, thank you) shown to be well done.

Yes, my blu ray purchases have, unfortunately, become mostly about these two things. In a world of pirating, I'm flabbergasted why paying customers like myself get the shaft. Speaking of which, if the studio are listening (doubtful), knock it off with those anti-piracy ads. I didn't steal your movie. I paid good money for it. I shouldn't have be bothered by that. I don't recall seeing one recently so maybe they've quit that, hopefully.
Greetings,

Great post tuxedocivic. Thanks very much for chiming in here...


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post #28 of 39 Old 06-26-2014, 04:33 PM
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Ralph,

as I've stated before, you're one of the few reviewers I actually ever bother to read because I enjoy your take and appreciate your ability to equally review serious movies AND popcorn entertainment for what they are individually. Your take generally gives me a good idea of whether I'll enjoy a movie, and of course, the subjective Low Frequency Effects category is completely subjective and will vary from person to person.

All that said though, I had to vote no on the usefulness of the subjective LF Extension rating for me personally. As a sealed sub setup basshead, I've seen a few of your ratings that didn't match the actual extension on the measured soundtrack (as well as my own subjective experiences playing those movies loud through my sealed setup), and this is probably due to the differences in system response, which is why I tend to stick to data-bass to find out the extension (and quantity) of bass in new movies that I haven't yet seen.

As nube has mentioned, Low Frequency Extension is a quantifiable/measurable metric, and I think the addition to links with the measured extension would be a GREAT addition to your reviews and I really like the fact that you take the initiative to listen to your readers and consider making changes based on their feedback. Keep up the good work!


Max
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post #29 of 39 Old 06-26-2014, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post
Ralph,

as I've stated before, you're one of the few reviewers I actually ever bother to read because I enjoy your take and appreciate your ability to equally review serious movies AND popcorn entertainment for what they are individually. Your take generally gives me a good idea of whether I'll enjoy a movie, and of course, the subjective Low Frequency Effects category is completely subjective and will vary from person to person.

All that said though, I had to vote no on the usefulness of the subjective LF Extension rating for me personally. As a sealed sub setup basshead, I've seen a few of your ratings that didn't match the actual extension on the measured soundtrack (as well as my own subjective experiences playing those movies loud through my sealed setup), and this is probably due to the differences in system response, which is why I tend to stick to data-bass to find out the extension (and quantity) of bass in new movies that I haven't yet seen.

As nube has mentioned, Low Frequency Extension is a quantifiable/measurable metric, and I think the addition to links with the measured extension would be a GREAT addition to your reviews and I really like the fact that you take the initiative to listen to your readers and consider making changes based on their feedback. Keep up the good work!


Max
Greetings,

Thanks Max. As always your feedback and support is very much appreciated!

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post #30 of 39 Old 06-26-2014, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Ralph, I was conflicted on how to vote when I read your poll because every time I have read a review of yours, I take any comments about "bass" or "extension" with a grain of salt for the rationale outlined by nube below.

That said, I went ahead and voted "Yes, I find it useful" with a caveat I will elaborate on below.



Outstanding post nube. Spoken like a true ambassador of the lowest octaves!



Ralph, the caveat I was referring to earlier...

How about you work in collaboration with nube/data-bass/or other "XYZ* knowledgeable resource, when establishing your extension/bass response rating.

While it may take some coordination up front to get everyone on the same page, IMO it would be a game changer to read one of your reviews and not have to double check data-bass and/or the AVS Master Bass List in Movies to confirm your "subjective" opinion. Just simply providing a link to either (or both) resources for objective data would be a HUGE factor in ensuring that I take the time to read all of your reviews.

In fact, with the Master Bass List thread being so long and cumbersome to navigate, if you provided a direct link to the objective measurements, I would be sure to use ALL of your review threads as a reference point instead of trying to scourer through the Master Bass List thread for the information.

Two birds...one stone...Increase in traffic for your reviews.


---------------------------------------------------------------
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Looking forward to your next review.
I'm voting yes with the same caveat! That would be fantastic to reference the measured extension.

Great idea pop!
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