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post #61 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 10:17 AM
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Holy crap I've missed a lot here in the last few days. My apologies, but I've been super busy with skiing and having fellas over for movie night. I just got a tabletop commercial style popcorn maker and it's the bomb. I made up ten different flavour toppings using spices from my cabinet and did the taste test with my kids. Whew, OT. Anyhoo, today is a chillaxin' kind of day. I may be able to even get downstairs this afternoon and do some testing. I have what is considered to be one of the more accurate spl meters for my phone relative to a handheld spl meter. That's as scientific as I'm going to get about it - I don't need to spend more money on an spl meter. My ears will tell me and I'm going to do my best with the graphs. I'll do my best to be as objective about what my ears hear, then snap the pics of the graphs and post them. Cheers.

Edit: Any particular scene people think would be best? FWIW, if the meter is inaccurate, it will be equally inaccurate for both so it should still tell a reasonable story.

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post #62 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 10:54 AM
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^^^Oh, sweet. Certainly others might chime in, but I think the interlude where Bond commandeers the construction tractor to bring to bear his will during the early (mostly foot) chase sequence -- if memory serves, there is some mass unleashing of metal piping (though I watched all the recent Bonds I have over the last few days, so that might be in one, or possibly even a few, of the Daniel Craig installments), but I'm thinking particularly IntelliVolume extolled the virtues of the TRUE HD presentation of that sequence, just for starters...someone else?

Thanks Blastermaster! -- your description of popcorn just prepped me for some more movie watching today! -- yesterday I realized that I had actually given up on Quantum Of Solace years ago, and never watched it! -- so that was great to see it for the first time!.........
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post #63 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 11:54 AM
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There is nothing more to debate on whether there is any difference between the PCM and DTHD tracks.
They are exactly the same mix and levels; the only difference being the superfluous padded 24bits for a native 16bit track.

If ones receiver preamps the DTHD track a little louder than PCM for playback then that will be the sole difference but the actual data is exactly the same thing.

Why on earth did you resurrect this necropost anyways, Emyach?

Well despite whatever pseudoscience agenda you may have hoped to pursue it is something I have been curious about myself for sometime but was unable to pursue until recently.

I did A/B both tracks in Adobe Audition and they sound exactly the same. Shocking!! The same data/mix just in a different container provides the same auditory results!!

Certainly one could continue posing some quasi-reasonable deference to preference of one codec to the other but if the track is the same and playback level is the same the final audible result will be... Drum-roll.... The same.

Later I may grab the DTSMA track but I have to find my uber-set, thought I loaned it out but may have been squirreled away in storage.
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post #64 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 12:48 PM
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There is nothing more to debate on whether there is any difference between the PCM and DTHD tracks.They are exactly the same mix and levels; the only difference being the superfluous padded 24bits for a native 16bit track.
NICE! So of course this is far far far from being proved in any kind of scientific way, but now we have that starting point which adds weight to my supposition/theory/hypothesis: identical tracks will sound different to a significant sampling of subjects, as existing reviews seem to bear out.

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Why on earth did you resurrect this necropost anyways, Emyach?
...uh....usual reasons, enjoy movies, enjoy discussing them, hoping to discover kindred spirits out there interested in the same thing. Point of clarification: I ENTERED the ongoing discussion of this over in SPECTRE, but we were really talking about CASINO ROYALE, so I did bring this THREAD back -- is that what you meant to say: "necrothread"? I point this out not to capitalize on a possibly inconsequential "mistake," likewise your spelling of my AVS handle "Emaych" -- I don't consider these to be mistakes, but, germane to this discussion, it just goes to show how your perceptions differ from another's, which is exactly the point of studying why two tracks might be perceived differently, even though identical.

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Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post
Well despite whatever pseudoscience agenda you may have hoped to pursue it is something I have been curious about myself for sometime but was unable to pursue until recently.
Oh, there you are, that kindred spirit who was interested in exactly the same thing I was, even through your intended derision.

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I did A/B both tracks in Adobe Audition and they sound exactly the same. Shocking!! The same data/mix just in a different container provides the same auditory results!!
Oh, wait a minute now...what are you saying? Meaning unclear. I'm hoping "same auditory results" does not mean to imply they "sound the same." Sorry, but judging from anecdotal evidence, the exact opposite appears to have been demonstrated, but that was a very curious turn of phrase, which you pointedly repeated below.

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Certainly one could continue posing some quasi-reasonable deference to preference of one codec to the other but if the track is the same and playback level is the same the final audible result will be... Drum-roll.... The same.
Just my guess here, but APPEARS as if you are suggesting that scientific methodology should be scrapped, well, maybe if you think you have the answer figured out? I know I am tempted to do the same, but will wait until someone does the double blind as to whether identical tracks nevertheless sound different. In the mean time, I think I feel vindicated that what I was saying all along seems likely to be the reality -- won't declare it definitively, however!
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post #65 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post
There is nothing more to debate on whether there is any difference between the PCM and DTHD tracks.
They are exactly the same mix and levels; the only difference being the superfluous padded 24bits for a native 16bit track.

If ones receiver preamps the DTHD track a little louder than PCM for playback then that will be the sole difference but the actual data is exactly the same thing.

Why on earth did you resurrect this necropost anyways, Emyach?

Well despite whatever pseudoscience agenda you may have hoped to pursue it is something I have been curious about myself for sometime but was unable to pursue until recently.

I did A/B both tracks in Adobe Audition and they sound exactly the same. Shocking!! The same data/mix just in a different container provides the same auditory results!!

Certainly one could continue posing some quasi-reasonable deference to preference of one codec to the other but if the track is the same and playback level is the same the final audible result will be... Drum-roll.... The same.

Later I may grab the DTSMA track but I have to find my uber-set, thought I loaned it out but may have been squirreled away in storage.
I saw your post on the previous page, but didn't realize you had measured the True HD track as well. Interesting that there is not even a level difference.

Thanks for your efforts and info. Case closed.
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post #66 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
I saw your post on the previius page, but didn't realize you had measured the True HD track as well. Interesting that there is not even a level difference.

Thanks for your efforts and info. Case closed.
I hear you! Very tempting to pat myself on the back for advancing that theory which defied common deduction, and was seemingly vindicated, but in truth, this is where the science starts...though the anecdotal evidence appears reasonably strong -- I mean, it certainly is enough for me, while stopping short of proclaiming "case closed," but I leave the trials to someone else.

Of course this now means that any perception I might have had of the incoming disc I ordered of CASINO ROYALE COLLECTOR'S EDITION, has been irrevocably tainted/corrupted by this information -- I had hoped to arrive at a valid opinion before offering it to graphers, but I suppose I will be happy enough if it just sounds better than my PCM version.....
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post #67 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 01:55 PM
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That is a lot of reaching and an inane attempt for a propping a straw-man comparison from a simple spelling error.

I have provided objective verifiable data whilst you continue to argue for dubious methodology in this situation that holds high variability and subjectivity.

The tracks were taken directly from the respective discs and remained completely in the digital domain. Then each track was analyzed by Audition and provided results that proved to be exactly the same between the respective tracks.

Afterwards I listened to both with the ability to instantaneously toggle between each track and heard no difference.
That maybe my anecdotal experience that happens to be backed up by the concrete data. Whereas your arugement that masquerades as pursuant of impartiality is in reality relying on solely anecdotal values of judgement that introduces high degrees of variability to the observation process. Remaining wholly in the domain of subjectivity.

At least I addressed one potential variable that can create a disparity in the subjectivity evaluation of the PCM track versus the DTHD which is the possibility that a receiver may preamp the playback levels differently between the two containers. Which will skew any supposed double blind test.

My testing removed that variability and since each track was exactly the same mix and levels I did not even need to make any adjustments to ensure equal level playback because they were already exactly the same.

I wont be able to change your opinion because you value audiophoolia mysticism and obfuscation, by shrouding your argument with a quasi-scientific method with high variability and subjectivity that serves no purpose, especially in light of the objective information I have provided.

The only thing you can argue at this point is whether an individuals receiver is preamping the levels differently between PCM and DTHD. Assuming that is the case in a given situation and I have provided the information that affirms the two tracks are exactly the same then the sole difference is the perceptions of playback levels which will be remedied by ensuring equal playback levels. The results in that corrected situation will replicate both the objective data as well my own anecdotal experience.

Case is indeed closed at least in respects to the PCM and DTHD tracks. I will work on the DTSMA track later and ascertain whether it is also the same mix.
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post #68 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 02:34 PM
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^^^Thanks for your efforts! No need to resort to personal attack, I think. I'm sure you understand that the person setting up a study as to whether they sounded the same, would, because of the perspective gained in so doing...would be ruled out as acceptable valid test subject to offer survey opinion on how they sounded -- absolutely nothing personal, in fact, because of the information you provided and my exposure to it, also rules me out.

And because you came in at a later time, you may not be aware that whether the tracks were the same was only the first phase of inquiry -- the question as to whether they sound the same or different, which to me is really the most fascinating aspect, remains unsettled, at least "scientifically."

But you helped, and that is surely appreciated!
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post #69 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 03:36 PM
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Ok, so I gave the two a listen and set up my SPL meter on my Shield Tablet. Here are the pics. The first two are from the intro (PCM and TrueHD, respectively) (rawr), and the last two are from the scene where Bond breaks through the hut/fence with the loader.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

They aren't exactly at the EXACT same spots, but you can clearly see that the output levels are the same. As far as dynamics...it sounded the same to me for those scenes. I'm going to watch the TrueHD in full because I have it now, but I don't expect to change my thoughts. Sorry for those who feel it sounds different, but it just doesn't to me. I'm also 42 years old, so maybe my hearing's not as good as some of you twenty-somethings.

**best thing to do is open them up in new tabs and compare.
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post #70 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 03:46 PM
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^^^Sweet, man -- thanks for doing that! I will still offer up my impressions, for what they may be worth, when my disc comes in. Won't be until the weekend, the only time I do movies, and of course my judgment is skewed now -- not to mention the age thing(...oh, plus dual JTR S2s pounding away weekend after weekend...)! Thanks again!
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post #71 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 05:23 PM
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DTSMA is the same mix but evidently it is true 24bit. Although some values differ the actual mix is the same.
I believe the discrepancies lies with the bit depth but the actual amplitude statistics and characteristic are effectively the same.
A/B it with the DTHD and PCM which sounded the same to me.

Channel 1 Channel 2 Channel 3 Channel 4 Channel 5 Channel 6
Peak Amplitude: -1.54 dB -1.62 dB -1.00 dB -1.00 dB -2.21 dB -2.07 dB
True Peak Amplitude: -1.54 dBTP -1.39 dBTP -0.38 dBTP -1.00 dBTP -2.19 dBTP -1.97 dBTP
Maximum Sample Value: 26752.04 26545.08 29204.52 29204.51 25416.84 25804.97
Minimum Sample Value: -27444.98 -27189.84 -29204.52 -28763.04 -25214.97 -25767.76
Possibly Clipped Samples: 0 0 0 0 0 0
Total RMS Amplitude: -26.10 dB -26.78 dB -24.13 dB -29.51 dB -33.52 dB -32.91 dB
Maximum RMS Amplitude: -7.41 dB -7.30 dB -6.73 dB -3.88 dB -8.21 dB -7.73 dB
Minimum RMS Amplitude: -91.18 dB -101.97 dB -86.04 dB -118.82 dB -109.87 dB -88.96 dB
Average RMS Amplitude: -42.58 dB -43.19 dB -37.67 dB -74.76 dB -48.97 dB -48.71 dB
DC Offset: 0.00 % 0.00 % -0.01 % 0.00 % 0.00 % 0.00 %
Measured Bit Depth: 24 24 24 24 24 24
Dynamic Range: 83.77 dB 94.67 dB 79.31 dB 114.94 dB 101.66 dB 81.23 dB
Dynamic Range Used: 61.30 dB 62.80 dB 53.90 dB 108.65 dB 63.30 dB 64.30 dB
Loudness (Legacy): -21.10 dB -21.93 dB -15.56 dB -15.45 dB -29.65 dB -29.09 dB
Perceived Loudness (Legacy): -17.64 dB -18.13 dB -10.94 dB -12.34 dB -26.52 dB -25.49 dB
ITU-R BS.1770-3 Loudness: -16.77 LUFS

0dB = FS Square Wave
Using RMS Window of 50.00 ms
Account for DC = true
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	CR-DTSMA-Pic2-Small.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	628.7 KB
ID:	1270025   Click image for larger version

Name:	CR-DTSMA-Pic1-Small.jpg
Views:	52
Size:	615.6 KB
ID:	1270033  
Attached Files
File Type: txt CR-DTSMA-DynamicRangeNumbers.txt (1.3 KB, 5 views)
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post #72 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 06:09 PM
 
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Holy crap I've missed a lot here in the last few days. My apologies, but I've been super busy with skiing and having fellas over for movie night. I just got a tabletop commercial style popcorn maker and it's the bomb. I made up ten different flavour toppings using spices from my cabinet and did the taste test with my kids. Whew, OT. Anyhoo, today is a chillaxin' kind of day. I may be able to even get downstairs this afternoon and do some testing. I have what is considered to be one of the more accurate spl meters for my phone relative to a handheld spl meter. That's as scientific as I'm going to get about it - I don't need to spend more money on an spl meter. My ears will tell me and I'm going to do my best with the graphs. I'll do my best to be as objective about what my ears hear, then snap the pics of the graphs and post them. Cheers.

Edit: Any particular scene people think would be best? FWIW, if the meter is inaccurate, it will be equally inaccurate for both so it should still tell a reasonable story.
Some Canadian Blu-ray versions have DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 ... so all together there are three different audio codecs to check out.
And Casino Royale is the best...followed by Skyfall. ...Spectre is number three and Quantum of Solace last.


It's all fun...all the Bond flicks starting from the 60s and still going strong today. There are more Bonds than there are Star Wars.
And the missing ingredients are Dolby Atmos and 3D. ...Spectre should have been in Atmos...perhaps the UHD Blu-ray...
_________

♪ As for the difference between LPCM 5.1 uncompressed audio and Dobly TrueHD & DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 lossless...they all sound great, so what if if you can hear a little bell sounding more "naturel bell" in one of them...are we going to lose sleep tonight over it...most likely for some...but I know one guy who won't.
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post #73 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 06:35 PM
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♪ As for the difference between LPCM 5.1 uncompressed audio and Dobly TrueHD & DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 lossless...they all sound great, so what if if you can hear a little bell sounding more "naturel bell" in one of them...are we going to lose sleep tonight over it...most likely for some...but I know one guy who won't.
Do not be so trite Bob, real substantial information has been provided about this one soundtrack example.
They all sound 'great' because they are all the same, irrespective of their container. Although in this case the 24bit version maybe just a smidge more accurate but unlikely to provide any appreciable difference to the listener.

Now shush.
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post #74 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 08:24 PM
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Do not be so trite Bob, real substantial information has been provided about this one soundtrack example.
They all sound 'great' because they are all the same, irrespective of their container. Although in this case the 24bit version maybe just a smidge more accurate but unlikely to provide any appreciable difference to the listener.

Now shush.
Agreed. This is AV science, after all. That being said, I'll agree that they both sound fantastic and that makes everyone who owns either copy a winner. The fact that we are nitpicking like this shows our passion for this hobby. Now, it's time to fire up Casino Royale in TrueHD.
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post #75 of 75 Old 02-21-2016, 08:35 PM
 
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Sweet little animated cat, I like.
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