Saga of the "Old Vic" - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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Dedicated Theater Design & Construction > Saga of the "Old Vic"
fotto's Avatar fotto 01:36 PM 08-23-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post


Some of you guys already know this, but boy this theater building business is a big time sink.

Cheers.

Boy, is that ever an understatement. Absolutely love the carpet, stair trim, entrance.... could go on and on. Great job!

Moggie's Avatar Moggie 06:43 PM 09-10-2010
Another milestone reached and some updates to share. The good news is that the Old Vic now has chairs, yeah. The bad news is that after pushing hard the past couple of weeks I had a windsurfing accident and tore the meniscus in my knee. I'm now on crutches able to do anything constructive until after surgery. I guess the seats arrived just in time because at least I can now sit and listen to music and perhaps spend time taking measurements and calibrating the room.

I did manage to almost complete the work on the stair well and the pool/games room above. I have to admit that I found trimming the stairs quite challenging, especially building the stair rail which takes a billion measurements and doesn't tolerate mistakes well. Also, the building codes for stair installation are very long and particular. Anyway, I'm really happy with the results -- just some final painting and trim (probably a crown molding as well) to do. Oh, I have to recover my pool table too.



I feel I still need to trim out the entry to the stairs somehow to indicate that it's the entrance to the theater ... perhaps some signage. Any ideas?



A long time ago now someone commented on what that green machine was in my workshop. Well, it's really a metalworking CNC mill/lathe, but it created some wooden parts for my stairs quite well too!



The chairs are Berk 12000 from Roman. They weren't my first choice, but they were about 3 times less expensive and the size worked well. The chairs arrived incredible fast and as others have said, Roman is easy to work with. I almost went with a brown color but my wife talked me into black as a safe option. I think she was right because the wrong shade of brown would have been a mistake. I can tell you they are very comfortable because I've already fallen asleep on them with beer in hand. Now the real story is how these chairs got into the theater given that I cannot lift anything. Well I have my 5' 3 3/4" (she stressed she wanted the 3/4" mentioned) wife to thank for that. Unbelievably she carried all the chairs from the driveway into the theater completely on her own whilst I stood around pointing with my crutches -- I can't imagine what the neighbors thought!!



I've also made a boatload of walnut trim (about half what I will need to finish) which is now sitting ready to be installed. Can anyone who has had a meniscus repaired enlighten me on how long it might take before I'm able to climb a ladder again...?



Cheers.
tjambro's Avatar tjambro 07:16 PM 09-10-2010
Moggie, looks great as usual! Your wife must be superwoman to move all those chairs by herself. I think below your 8 yr old's quote you need to add something like, "Home Theater Construction: It's what broke my wife's back".

BTW, I just got a call today, my 7 "real" theater seats are supposed to be here Monday or Tuesday. Not ready for them, but at least they'll be ready when I am.
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 07:25 PM 09-10-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjambro View Post

Moggie, looks great as usual! Your wife must be superwoman to move all those chairs by herself. I think below your 8 yr old's quote you need to add something like, "Home Theater Construction: It's what broke my wife's back".

BTW, I just got a call today, my 7 "real" theater seats are supposed to be here Monday or Tuesday. Not ready for them, but at least they'll be ready when I am.

Too funny. My wife is very fit and very determined when she wants to be, but I think I've used up my favors for the month.

I wasn't really ready for my chairs either but I figured I could easily work around them so I went ahead and ordered. It's actually a big relief that all the planning worked out -- now I know they fit and the second row can see over the heads of the first, etc.
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 07:38 PM 09-10-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I had some non-surgical meniscus injury that would cause my knee to get sore when I exercised it. While one guy wanted to work on it, A top rated Otho surgeon said no. It took over two years for it to get back to normal. What I found that helped strengthen it for other activities was spinning classes.

Two years The spin class is a good idea when I get there. I'll know in a couple of days what course of action I'm going to pursue but right now I cannot put *any* pressure on my knee. It's already a real eye opener as to how important your knees are...
tjambro's Avatar tjambro 08:58 PM 09-10-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

I wasn't really ready for my chairs either but I figured I could easily work around them so I went ahead and ordered. It's actually a big relief that all the planning worked out -- now I know they fit and the second row can see over the heads of the first, etc.

That's exactly why I have ordered both my screen and chairs early. I wanted to have them all on hand when building the screen wall and riser.

Sorry to hear about your knee. I'm sure you won't be out of commission any longer than you have to.
fotto's Avatar fotto 06:29 AM 09-11-2010
Yeah, sorry to hear about your knee as well Moggie. Hope you get back in action soon.
As far as dressing up your stairway/entrance, IMHO, a nice sign of some sort just above the top of the stairwell/opening on the wall (the pic where you can see the pool table) would be a nice teaser for what's down the stairs.
carboranadum's Avatar carboranadum 07:12 AM 09-11-2010
Beautiful work...stunning actually!
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 04:34 PM 09-11-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

As far as dressing up your stairway/entrance, IMHO, a nice sign of some sort just above the top of the stairwell/opening on the wall (the pic where you can see the pool table) would be a nice teaser for what's down the stairs.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I don't want to do any kind of marque since the actual entrance to the theater will have one. I was thinking something along the lines of a metal sculpture like this or this. I need to find somewhere local where I can touch and feel to check out the quality. It's so hard to judge on the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboranadum View Post

Beautiful work...stunning actually!

Thank you very much!
audiovideoholic's Avatar audiovideoholic 07:02 PM 09-11-2010
Holy shat! What a build. Started reading this thread last night at about 1am and picked back up on it this afternoon.

Me and my soon to be wife said we want a nice theater, which will be starting within a couple months, but dont think we will have one quite as nice as yours! Very nicely done!
Jon_B's Avatar Jon_B 02:19 AM 09-12-2010
Such amazing work Moggie. You set the bar higher as far as what I could dream of building, assuming I knew what I was doing.
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 09:12 AM 09-12-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Me and my soon to be wife said we want a nice theater, which will be starting within a couple months, but dont think we will have one quite as nice as yours! Very nicely done!

Congrats on your marriage to be! I appreciate the compliment but I think the most important attribute is patience. I've done a fair amount of DIY home remodeling in the past and this theater is an order of magnitude bigger than any other room I've tackled. I think it will end up being a 2 year project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_B View Post

Such amazing work Moggie. You set the bar higher as far as what I could dream of building, assuming I knew what I was doing.

You have found the right place to learn. I search this forum before I start any part of the build and spent about 2 years learning before I started the build.
4fit?'s Avatar 4fit? 05:50 PM 09-12-2010
Moog, I had meniscus surgery Jan 14th of this year. A substantial chunk of the back portion had completely torn away and lodged itself in between my joint, causing me to not be able to straight my leg anywhere near fully. This had been coming for several years, but didn't completely tear away til the end of December. From that time all the way up til the surgery, I was on crutches.

After the surgery, I used crutches literally to get from the car and into the house. After that, I never used the crutches again. I was able to go up and down stairs at work roughly a week after the surgery, though it wasn't the most pleasant thing in the world. As for going up and down a ladder, I would imagine a little while longer than a week since it requires quite a bit more flex and bend than simply going up stairs.

As luck would have it, my other knee has started displaying the same symptoms.

BTW, incredible build thus far buddy! Good luck with your surgery and let us know how it goes!

-Jeff-
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 11:00 PM 09-12-2010
Jeff, thanks you just made me feel a lot better! I was getting pretty bummed that it might be a long healing process since nobody else I know who had the surgery was on crutches beforehand. You have given me some hope. Fingers crossed.
wjr858's Avatar wjr858 11:31 PM 09-12-2010
First off, I have been following your theater build from the beginning. Placing a new foundation under your existing house really got my attention! Your craftsmanship and attention to detail are top shelf and I look forward to seeing your progress. However, it is a tough break to tear up a knee given all the kneeling and ladder work I'm sure you still need to do.

I had a good portion of the meniscus removed in my left knee about a year ago after it tore. And while each injury is unique, meniscus surgery (they don't really do a repair as much as remove the torn portion and clean up the edges) it relatively common. I actually had it done twice in part because I was impatient and rushed back after the first surgery necessitating a second surgery about a year ago. My recommendation if you have the surgery is to stay off it for a few days and use a continuous ice machine to keep swelling to a minimum. The machine circulates ice water to a bladder you wrap around your knee and it made a significant improvement in my recovery. A few PT session to teach you how to strengthen the muscles around the knee and you should be back windsurfing before too long. Of course your surgeon will provide the details based upon your specific injury. I was back playing ice hockey in about 8 weeks and I just finished a 70 mile backpacking trip that including hiking up Mt Whitney (14,497 feet) in California's Sierra Nevada mountains.

There is life and, for you, there will be theater building after meniscus surgery! Best of luck to you.
Brad Horstkotte's Avatar Brad Horstkotte 11:50 PM 09-12-2010
Awesome looking build Moggie! Sorry to hear your knee got ripped up. Hopefully you'll have a quick recovery - and get some more help from your statuesque wife (my wife is 5' 1 1/2" - or so she says).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post



Once the soffit was finished I was able to install 22 of these

What size & model of lights are those? Non-IC? I've been looking for some 2" or 3" incandescent lights for my soffit, so far came up empty, everything I find is LED. And where did you get them? I like the way you mounted them too, I've been wondering how to go about it, since I've been planning on leaving the bottom of my soffit open for fiberglass / bass trapping, and cover with cloth. I think I could something similar.
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 12:20 AM 09-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjr858 View Post

First off, I have been following your theater build from the beginning.

...

There is life and, for you, there will be theater building after meniscus surgery! Best of luck to you.

Thanks for the support (and I thought there were only 6 people and my mum following this build!). I passed through El Cajon in February on my Paramotoring trip..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

What size & model of lights are those? Non-IC? I've been looking for some 2" or 3" incandescent lights for my soffit, so far came up empty, everything I find is LED. And where did you get them? I like the way you mounted them too, I've been wondering how to go about it, since I've been planning on leaving the bottom of my soffit open for fiberglass / bass trapping, and cover with cloth. I think I could something similar.

Hi Brad, the lights are from Home Depot. They are very cheap and decent quality (I needed 20!). Check this link. They are 3" halogens and NOT IC rated but do come with a can with spring clips that lock it into the cutout. I think they are available in white, silver and bronze but I've seen other people take them apart and spray paint them. I mounted mine in the light tray that extends from the "open" soffit. There is no insulation in the tray and I was careful to keep them at least 3/4" from any vertical surfaces. Fitting is simple but requires a precise cutout -- I used a router and template.

Oh, one other thing to note is that if you mount them in a tray you will get some light spill through the holes in the can. I'm making sure the lips on the tray are tall enough to hide them.
oman321's Avatar oman321 07:20 AM 09-13-2010
Moggie,

Sad news about the injury, I pray you have a speedy recovery.

Your stariway work and entry look amazing, nice job. Your wife , wouldn't want to mess with her!!
KNKKNK's Avatar KNKKNK 10:25 AM 09-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_B View Post

Such amazing work Moggie. You set the bar higher ...

+1... I don't even need to duck to go under it anymore..

Extraordinary work Moggie!! The inlay at the entrance is truly remarkable, and the returns on the bar look fantastic, as does everything else!!

First time I've had a chance to browse the forum in a while and Im catching up on a few of the threads .. Sorry to hear about the knee ..I'll toast to a speedy recovery.

Brad
Brad Horstkotte's Avatar Brad Horstkotte 01:09 PM 09-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

Hi Brad, the lights are from Home Depot. They are very cheap and decent quality (I needed 20!). Check this link. They are 3" halogens and NOT IC rated but do come with a can with spring clips that lock it into the cutout.

Thanks, I'll check those out - do you need to do anything special (like change the load to something other than "incandescent") to get the Grafik Eye to work with halogens?

Edit: never mind, found in the Grafik Eye manual that the default setting is for "Incandescent/halogen (tungsten)".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

I mounted mine in the light tray that extends from the "open" soffit. There is no insulation in the tray and I was careful to keep them at least 3/4" from any vertical surfaces....if you mount them in a tray you will get some light spill through the holes in the can. I'm making sure the lips on the tray are tall enough to hide them.

Ah I see, not mounted in the soffit itself, but in the tray. I'll have to mull that over, I was only thinking of having my tray extend like 4 inches from the edge of the soffit, so that might not work for me. But I might be able to run the lower panel that forms the bottom of the tray further back on the soffit, and put the lights inside the soffit, but away from insulation - maybe add some internal bracing to keep insulation away from the cans.
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 06:50 PM 09-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Ah I see, not mounted in the soffit itself, but in the tray. I'll have to mull that over, I was only thinking of having my tray extend like 4 inches from the edge of the soffit, so that might not work for me. But I might be able to run the lower panel that forms the bottom of the tray further back on the soffit, and put the lights inside the soffit, but away from insulation - maybe add some internal bracing to keep insulation away from the cans.

Should be fine. Just remember that they are 50w halogens so they do get quite hot.
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 06:53 PM 09-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

First time I've had a chance to browse the forum in a while and Im catching up on a few of the threads .. Sorry to hear about the knee ..I'll toast to a speedy recovery.

Brad

Thanks Brad, I'm confident I'll be back building shortly else I'll end up deaf -- been drinking beer and listening to lots of loud music. I'm loving the sound in my second row of seats...
KNKKNK's Avatar KNKKNK 01:44 PM 09-14-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

Thanks Brad, I'm confident I'll be back building shortly else I'll end up deaf -- been drinking beer and listening to lots of loud music. I'm loving the sound in my second row of seats...

Cripes!!! I did'nt know drinking beer could make you go deaf too... Dumb, I knew about!!!

Interesting comment on the second row being your favorite. Is it also your favorite for surround tracks or primairly 2 channel? What would you attribute this too? Proximity to the rear diffusers? Seating height? ... or ?

Brad
FuzzyZipperbaum's Avatar FuzzyZipperbaum 03:22 PM 09-14-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

Thanks for the support (and I thought there were only 6 people and my mum following this build!). I passed through El Cajon in February on my Paramotoring trip..



Hi Brad, the lights are from Home Depot. They are very cheap and decent quality (I needed 20!). Check this link. They are 3" halogens and NOT IC rated but do come with a can with spring clips that lock it into the cutout. I think they are available in white, silver and bronze but I've seen other people take them apart and spray paint them. I mounted mine in the light tray that extends from the "open" soffit. There is no insulation in the tray and I was careful to keep them at least 3/4" from any vertical surfaces. Fitting is simple but requires a precise cutout -- I used a router and template.

Oh, one other thing to note is that if you mount them in a tray you will get some light spill through the holes in the can. I'm making sure the lips on the tray are tall enough to hide them.


Yeah great lights...they also have some identical ones at Lowes...I purchased the white ones and spray painted them flat black. They come apart very easy. They also allow you to angle the lights a bit.....
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 12:24 AM 09-15-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

Cripes!!! I did'nt know drinking beer could make you go deaf too... Dumb, I knew about!!!

Interesting comment on the second row being your favorite. Is it also your favorite for surround tracks or primairly 2 channel? What would you attribute this too? Proximity to the rear diffusers? Seating height? ... or ?
Brad


Brad,

Yup, it's a fact -- beer makes you go as deaf as a bat

Of the three rows the second row of seats has the best bass equalization. In fact the bar row sounds (and measures) pretty good too. The front row is just too close to the center of the room length so I knew it was going to be problematic. I spent a few hours and did a full equalization run with both the sub equalizer and then Audyssey on the pre/pro. I spoke about the front row problem with bpape some time ago and he said that I would have to move the seats by a minimum of 2' to get to a better spot and my recent measurements confirmed this. I wasn't prepared to compromise my seating plan (and if I had the second row would have been pushed into a unfavorable position or the front row would have been way to close to the screen) so decided I would live with the results. I must say Audyssey sub EQ did a pretty good job and it's not that the sound in the front row is bad -- imaging is great, it's just the bass is slightly boomy compared to the other seats. The main impediments are the axial modes around 21 and 42hz. The funny thing is that a neighbor listened to the sound and thought the front row was best, but they also have a giant boom box sub in their truck too Each to their own..

At some point I'll assemble all the results and post them but I still need to try a few more experiments.

If I recall you changed your plans so you are only installing a single row of seats in your HT? If so you will be able to easily dial the position but not being able to move the IB does have some disadvantages.

Another problem that took hours to hunt down was a ground loop causing a hum in the rear sub. It didn't occur until all the gear was installed into the rack (and some new ground paths were created). It's fixed now but was not intuitive despite my EE background!
Cheers.
tony123's Avatar tony123 05:32 AM 09-15-2010
Can you explain your troubleshooting and resolution of the hum? I'm chasing one myself right now. Just purchased an inline ground loop isolator and hope to try it when it comes in.

I've got the same issue with bass in my front row. My middle is the best and rear is just slightly boomy. It's not easy to work it out smooth for 12 seats. I've conceded that my front row will be my compromise.

tony
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 09:03 AM 09-15-2010
Hi Tony,

It would be interesting to find out what compromises the expert professional HT builders make when building a multi-row theater.. Placement will always be an issue in such a room and effective bass trapping is not practical below 40hz in a home sized room.

As far as ground loop elimination I assume you have read this excellent primer by Bill Lummis? There really isn't a set process to follow other than to try to identify the source of the problem through elimination: start unplugging until the problem goes away and try to figure out a solution from there. Remember that not all hum problems are ground loops (running unbalanced signal cables next to power for example). Also some problems may be very tough to fix especially if you are using different power outlets for different components (sub with built in amp is a classic example of that). I've had problems when connecting my cable feed in the past until I fixed the broken grounding where it enters the house. My most recent problem was fixed by creating grounding straps for my two UPS/conditioner supplies and pre/pro and using the straps to ground each unit to the rack (so the massive structure of the rack is the common ground point). Can you describe your problem in a little more detail and where your various components are plugged in?
KNKKNK's Avatar KNKKNK 07:00 AM 09-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

Of the three rows the second row of seats has the best bass equalization. In fact the bar row sounds (and measures) pretty good too. The front row is just too close to the center of the room length so I knew it was going to be problematic. .

Thank you Moggie, That explains it perfectly..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

I spent a few hours and did a full equalization run with both the sub equalizer and then Audyssey on the pre/pro. I spoke about the front row problem with bpape some time ago and he said that I would have to move the seats by a minimum of 2' to get to a better spot and my recent measurements confirmed this. I wasn't prepared to compromise my seating plan (and if I had the second row would have been pushed into a unfavorable position or the front row would have been way to close to the screen) so decided I would live with the results. I must say Audyssey sub EQ did a pretty good job and it's not that the sound in the front row is bad -- imaging is great, it's just the bass is slightly boomy compared to the other seats.
The main impediments are the axial modes around 21 and 42hz. .

How much do you think the rear subs contributed to smoothing out the model response? Did you take measurements with and without the rears in action? I ran wiring for additional subs on the rear and sides for "Just in case".. but I'm starting to believe that I will find they will be a necessity in the rear at a min.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

If I recall you changed your plans so you are only installing a single row of seats in your HT? If so you will be able to easily dial the position but not being able to move the IB does have some disadvantages..

"Plan?".. "Changed my Plan?"... BAHAHAHA!! .... If I'da had a plan I wouldn't have spent so much time redoing things like the HVAC

Since my room is on the short side for length, 2 rows would have put one in the middle and one aganist the rear wall, with the second row only being 2 seats wide, or non symmetric, because of the door location, + I would have had to go with a smaller screen. None of the options seemed appealing and I Figured that 90% of the time there would never be more than the 4 of us in the room so I said screw the second row. Hopefully with this layout I'll end up with 4 "Good" seats, and possibly a bar behind. (although clearance for a bar and seating is still tight back there)

Hope the knee is'nt causing too much pain. Have they scheduled your surgery yet?

Brad
Killer's Avatar Killer 08:26 AM 09-17-2010
Moggie,

relevant quote my doc gave me,

"moguls are like heartbeats. You only have so many."

I was playing basketball a week later my surgery if that helps. I will say, any DEEP knee bends and I'm feeling it. One of those exercise balls that have just a portion of it attached to a base worked GREAT for rehab. Try standing on it for a minute! Bet you can't do it first time out......

Robert
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 08:43 PM 09-17-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer View Post

"moguls are like heartbeats. You only have so many."

I like it, but I don't like it if you know what I mean. It's reassuring that so many people are back to normal life just a few days after surgery.
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