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Dedicated Theater Design & Construction > Saga of the "Old Vic"
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar BIGmouthinDC 10:02 AM 05-29-2009
water sucks

Moggie's Avatar Moggie 10:12 PM 06-09-2009
Ok, I'm back on the theater work and now have a GC cracking the whip...



She spends hours with me calmly in the theater and then suddenly decides its time to play and starts ripping and chewing everything in sight... I purchased 6 pencils from Home Depot the other day and now they are all gone -- all shredded around the floor! The lastest taste is the craft paper backing of the insulation. I guess she is telling me to get a move on and get the drywall up.


I got the HVAC supply and return installed. I had been advised to have double the supply volume for the return but after talking to the original HVAC installer he claimed this imbalance could trigger a shutdown? So I made both the supply and return 10" ducts. This is the return side.



The last 8' (silver) is the "quiet flow" duct although this will probably not matter because my plan is to transition to duct board duct (filling the joist bay) and backtrack to the opposite wall. Finally they elbow down into what will be the internal theater soffit and follow the soffit to their final vents -- supply on either side of screen; return at back center of room behind projector. The 14' length above the ceiling and all duct work inside the soffit will be encased in MDF.



I also laid the floor. In the end I decided on Dricore (with is a difficult to find special order in my location). I had just enough to cover the concrete in the lobby as well so now I can safely lay a hardwood floor if I want to. Here is the connecting door sill:



Here's looking towards the future IB chamber and screen wall:



Notice that I stopped short of the planned IB chamber -- I have a question on that in my next post.

I also need to fit some PT 2x6 to complete the flooring against the concrete grade change:



I'm also just about done with the insulation (why don't Owings Corning make a 12" width bat? Much of my framing required 12" stub bays at transition points and it is a PITA to rip..)



Finally, you can see what the next BIG job is ;-)


Moggie's Avatar Moggie 10:25 PM 06-09-2009
Here is my current conundrum:

I framed the room (room within room) directly onto the concrete slab and caulked the sill plates. I have laid Dricore up to 1/4" of the walls in the room and have screwed it down in a few places to ensure it is snug with the concrete. Given the trouble I'm going to to decouple the ceiling and walls I want to again consider if there is anything else I can do now to help isolate the floor. This has been nagging me recently because of the decision to cut off the front most 3' of the room and turn it into an IB chamber. Let me explain. My plan has been to drywall the room, then build the IB partition wall and mount 4x18" IB array to this divider. Since IB arrays require solid mounting I intended to weld up some triangular supports and make sure the lower part of the dividing wall was anchored to the concrete floor with no chance of it moving. Now, whilst thinking ahead to stage design I'm having second thoughts.. Typically a stage is isolated and filled with stand to provide a solid but partially decoupled base for the subs, right? So with my current plan, a sand filled stage is not going to help because the subs are anchored directly to the floor and walls!

Options as I see them:
a) Build a manifold IB which in theory would not need the iron bracing and perhaps would not transfer as much to the walls/concrete floor?

b) Same as a) but further isolate the floor by adding some mass and damping with a layer of green glue on the Dricore and a final layer of 3/4" OSB -- build the dividing wall on top of this and perhaps decouple it from side walls and ceiling with DC-04 clips and caulk?

c) Add some form of isolation to the floor (dricore, Acoustix, OSB lay up), build a traditional sand-filled stage on top (perhaps with additional layer of acoustix rubber mat) that extends into the IB chamber. Then, and here is my crazy idea, I build an IB manifold and fix it to the rear of the stage. I then build the dividing wall to within 1/4" of the IB manifold and caulk the gap. The following sketch should illustrate this idea. The theory that I would like to validate/invalidate is:
(i) The floor layout of Dricore/Acoustix Mat/OSB is better than alternative treatments given the wall framing is attached to the concrete.
(ii) Placing the IB manifold sub on the stage will provide a sufficient solid mount and remove direct coupling of the sub to the floor/walls.



I've searched extensively and in general those building IB subs don't care much about isolation, but I do. I realize my suggestion is a little awkward to build but I've though through the process and it's definitely possible. BUT, is it worth it?

Thanks!
Ted White's Avatar Ted White 05:27 AM 06-10-2009
I would agree to look to minimize contact with anything including the slab. Slab is heavy, but still susceptible. Walls I would really avoid contact with. Hard to do since you have to seal.

DC-04s can help, but realize that everything including the neoprene in clips and sealant will conduct something.

Amazing the number if IB projects going on these days.
KNKKNK's Avatar KNKKNK 08:13 AM 06-10-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post


Options as I see them:
a) Build a manifold IB which in theory would not need the iron bracing and perhaps would not transfer as much to the walls/concrete floor?

b) Same as a) but further isolate the floor by adding some mass and damping with a layer of green glue on the Dricore and a final layer of 3/4" OSB -- build the dividing wall on top of this and perhaps decouple it from side walls and ceiling with DC-04 clips and caulk?

c) Add some form of isolation to the floor (dricore, Acoustix, OSB lay up), build a traditional sand-filled stage on top (perhaps with additional layer of acoustix rubber mat) that extends into the IB chamber. Then, and here is my crazy idea, I build an IB manifold and fix it to the rear of the stage. I then build the dividing wall to within 1/4" of the IB manifold and caulk the gap. The following sketch should illustrate this idea. The theory that I would like to validate/invalidate is:
(i) The floor layout of Dricore/Acoustix Mat/OSB is better than alternative treatments given the wall framing is attached to the concrete.
(ii) Placing the IB manifold sub on the stage will provide a sufficient solid mount and remove direct coupling of the sub to the floor/walls.

I've searched extensively and in general those building IB subs don't care much about isolation, but I do. I realize my suggestion is a little awkward to build but I've though through the process and it's definitely possible. BUT, is it worth it?

Thanks!

Hey Moggie... excellant build, I would give my right arm for a workshop like yours... but then who would finish sanding my drywall

I too put alot of effort into isolating the HT from the rest of the house, and am installing an IB..

I chose the Manifold approach for the same reasons you mentioned.. to eliminate the mechanical stresses on the structure.

I am by no means an expert, but have laid in bed at night contemplating the same issues you are addressing in your post..

I like the idea of the sand platform to help dampen the effects of the IB..
although somehow tying the manifolds to the stage that extends into the theater seems somewhat counter intuitive..

Why not build a seperate Isolated sand filled platform in the chamber for the Manifolds to rest on?

Short of another Room in a Room for the chamber, which would be a room in a room in a room (see where this could go) what about a staggered or double stud for the baffle wall, although you would still get some flanking at the top and bottom plates/ side connection points, i would think this would help to dampen the vibrations from the manifolds.. basically the manifolds could be sealed at the interior wall of the chamber, and you could build the manifolds with a long enought throat to extend through the wall on the theater side, with a small clearance around the manifold you could then caulk (just thinking out loud)

What is your plan for the interior of the Chamber.. ie.. MDF,gg, DW,gg, DW etc..

Brad
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 10:07 AM 06-10-2009
Hi Brad,

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking about this problem! You offer some interesting suggestions but I don't believe that the lack of isolation between the IB chamber and the theater room matters that much. So whether the stage is one or two parts probably only affects the mass of the stage the sub sits on (which would be less than it could otherwise be). What I think it common in your thoughts and mine is that by mounting the manifold to a stage sitting on the floor you can avoid a strong coupling with a wall which must be a good thing.

I think we share the theory that if a sand filled stage benefits regular subs then why shouldn't it offer the same benefits to an IB setup. We just need to figure out the best way to construct



Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

What is your plan for the interior of the Chamber.. ie.. MDF,gg, DW,gg, DW etc..

My current plan, which obviously I have not completed yet, is to DD+GG the interior wall, then construct the IB chamber dividing wall finishing on the theater side only. I would then crawl inside the chamber and fit a bit more insulation to the walls which I believe has the effect of increasing the virtual volume (and is a good place to dump any left over pink fluffy stuff). The dividing wall will probably be a layer of QuietWood + GG + Drywall. The wood would server as a mounting surface for speakers, etc. Note that I already have a few sheets of QuietWood left over from a friends condo remodel -- it's pretty cool stuff: two layers of thin ply with a sheet of steel sandwiched between glued with something that I imagine is similar to GG.
Ted White's Avatar Ted White 10:09 AM 06-10-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

glued with something that I imagine is similar to GG.

Similar. Damps 25% as well as GG
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar BIGmouthinDC 11:06 AM 06-10-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

I guess she is telling me to get a move on and get the drywall up.

Actually I think she is saying "get me out of this cave I want to go for a run outside". I had a Golden that was only at peace if he could go run his fool head off chasing other dogs at the dog park every day. There was a particular visla that was his match and he perked up every time it showed up for a run. He was never able to catch him but he loved to try. The visla just loved to play cat and mouse and torment my dog.
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 12:22 PM 06-10-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Actually I think she is saying "get me out of this cave I want to go for a run outside". I had a Golden that was only at peace if he could go run his fool head off chasing other dogs at the dog park every day. There was a particular visla that was his match and he perked up every time it showed up for a run. He was never able to catch him but he loved to try. The visla just loved to play cat and mouse and torment my dog.

You are probably right. I have a park very close and she also loves to run with other dogs. In fact I hardly ever need to walk her, she walks herself. It is good to get some fresh air every now and then. Construction is so dusty...
W00lly's Avatar W00lly 10:49 PM 06-22-2009
lets see some drywall HT pics Moggie
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 03:23 PM 06-24-2009
There you go

Moggie's Avatar Moggie 04:07 PM 06-24-2009
The real reason for lack of drywall shots is that I've hit a bit of an analysis paralysis situation. Let me explain...

My original layout that started this thread had two fundamental problems:
(i) The room length was double the room width
(ii) The front row of seats sat on the 50% length line
Both are problematic for base control.

Problem (i) was solved by cutting a few feet of the room and turning it into a IB sub. This was hardly a comprise that was difficult to make

However problem (ii) has been bugging me giving my constraints and desires. Whilst it is probably true that most HT builders desires are greater than their constraints I'm a perfectionist by nature and am telling myself that I'll never post in the "what I'd do differently" thread.

Constraints:
* I have a fixed 6" concrete step in the concrete floor as a necessary result of my crawl space excavation.
* Entry to the room cannot be moved.
* Not really a constraint, but framing is finished and I'd rather not change anything too major.

Desires:
* 11' or 12' wide curved AT CIH screen
* Two rows of seating with rear bar seats (don't care much about sound quality of bar seats)

I've been analyzing two strategies and would welcome any feedback/suggestions:


Option A: Try to move front row forward of 50% length point.
Pros: Plenty of room for spaced out seating
Cons: Front row would be at a 1:1 viewing distance for 11' screen

Option B: Move walls slightly to move midpoint forward and place front row tight against concrete step.
Pros: Three rows of seating is very cramped; slightly compromised IB chamber size.
Cons: Large screen no problem; easy to recess rear speakers (don't need columns)

An open question in both options is just how far away from the center of the room do I need to be to have a chance at fixing modal base problems. I've been exploring that in the Audio theory area (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1150343), but they are blindingly scientific!


The drawings:
Option A



Calcs for A [click]

Option B


Calcs for B [click]
W00lly's Avatar W00lly 05:12 PM 06-24-2009
Moggie

My screen is a 12' wide 2.35 and eyes to screen from the front row is 13' reclined and I dont think I would want to be any closer then that other wise you would be looking side to side to see all the action
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 05:38 PM 06-24-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by W00lly View Post

Moggie

My screen is a 12' wide 2.35 and eyes to screen from the front row is 13' reclined and I dont think I would want to be any closer then that other wise you would be looking side to side to see all the action

Thanks. That pretty much matches my thoughts. So "option B" may work if I can find seating that will fit in the remaining space (BigmouthDC repeatedly states 6'8" between rows for Berkline recliners) or I need to reduce screen size and go with "option A". Hmmm.
W00lly's Avatar W00lly 06:07 PM 06-24-2009
Moggie

My recliners are really large. I have my chairs 3.6 from the back of the front chairs to the front of the rear chairs and when reclined with the foot rest up there is 18" of space so the people can get out without having the reclined people move. I think 4' in between the rows would be perfect

back of the rear row from the back of the front row is 6' and 19' from the screen to back of the rear row which is the sweet spot for me
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 08:42 PM 06-24-2009
Scott,

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you are getting away with 6' "between rows" although suggest 6'6" would be better. If I recall you are not using Berkline chairs, correct?
W00lly's Avatar W00lly 10:22 PM 06-26-2009
I think we are confusing each other with the between rows thing I have 6' from the back of the front row to the back of my rear row and yes 6'6" would be ideal

How much room do you want to have from the back of the front row and the front of the footrest of the back row when extended ? 24"-34" ?
KNKKNK's Avatar KNKKNK 10:36 PM 06-26-2009
Moggie.... Did the big brown truck, drop off the 4 big brown boxes yet?

They will put a smile on your face
rha1211's Avatar rha1211 11:03 PM 06-26-2009
I would go with option A. The back of your theater is a natural path way (it allows people to move about without blocking the screen). Also I've found people have different tastes on how far to sit from the screen. With 3 rows it will allow people to choose (close, medium, or far). I have clients that sit closer than 1:1 and they love it.............
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 12:42 AM 06-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by W00lly View Post

How much room do you want to have from the back of the front row and the front of the footrest of the back row when extended ? 24"-34" ?

Given that I'm going with a 3 seat row with exit on both sides I just need enough room for the person in the middle seat to be able to squeeze out. I figured even 18-24" is probably enough. Anyway it's helpful to know that I can put the seats together as close as 6' since your Theater proportions look good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rha1211 View Post

I would go with option A. The back of your theater is a natural path way (it allows people to move about without blocking the screen). Also I've found people have different tastes on how far to sit from the screen. With 3 rows it will allow people to choose (close, medium, or far). I have clients that sit closer than 1:1 and they love it.............

I went to a local theater recently and found that I definitely don't like being closer than 1:1. Years ago I remember seeing "Dancer in the Dark" and was forced to sit in the front row -- all the hand cam stuff made me vomit! (or was it the movie content...)
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 12:43 AM 06-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

Moggie.... Did the big brown truck, drop off the 4 big brown boxes yet?

They will put a smile on your face

Not saying...
W00lly's Avatar W00lly 06:05 AM 06-27-2009
Like I said I have 18" and it is ok but 24" would be better. All the Berk's are a pretty deep seats when fully extended mine are only 53" the biggest berk is like 69"
tony123's Avatar tony123 02:12 PM 08-13-2009
Hey Moggie, impressive plans you have here! Our spaces and layout are pretty similar. Only mine is not nearly as "tidy" as yours.

I saw the discussion of screensize and thought I'd go down and measure to see exactly what I ended up with. AT screen is 168" at 2.35. First row reclined is at 12'. Second row is at 18' and the bar row is at 22'. Total room length of 28'+2.5' behind screen. These dimensions work wonderfully for our taste. Don't be afraid to experiment with something even larger than you might think.

I don't know enough to answer your baffle wall questions from the other thread, sorry.

PS: Beautiful dog. We have a 10 month old female ourselves.
tony123's Avatar tony123 02:37 PM 08-13-2009
I knew I had recently seen the baffle wall. Jeff at "thebland" built one in his theater. Try getting a hold of him.
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar BIGmouthinDC 05:48 PM 08-13-2009
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 08:35 AM 08-14-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

Hey Moggie, impressive plans you have here! Our spaces and layout are pretty similar. Only mine is not nearly as "tidy" as yours.

I saw the discussion of screensize and thought I'd go down and measure to see exactly what I ended up with. AT screen is 168" at 2.35. First row reclined is at 12'. Second row is at 18' and the bar row is at 22'. Total room length of 28'+2.5' behind screen. These dimensions work wonderfully for our taste. Don't be afraid to experiment with something even larger than you might think.

I don't know enough to answer your baffle wall questions from the other thread, sorry.

Thanks for the info Tony. You certainly have a very big screen! I have read your thread in the past but review again to get a sense of proportions.

On the baffle front, I'm not actually planning a baffle wall but rather just trying to find out if partially recessing the KL-650 THX into the wall would change their character in my situation. I also asked the question on the Klipsch technical forum and the advice was that this speaker is tolerant of this kind of placement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

PS: Beautiful dog. We have a 10 month old female ourselves.

Thanks, we love her. She is a year and 3 months now and definitely part of the family. The funny thing is that my wife took 8 years of persuading to get a dog because she "doesn't like animals". Now... well, we just got back from a summer vacation that was planned around taking the dog because my wife didn't want to be separated from her.
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 08:36 AM 08-14-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

some baffle wall discussion:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hx+baffle+wall

Thanks Big. You'll have to change your alias to GoogleBIGmouth -- better than any search engine
Ted White's Avatar Ted White 08:40 AM 08-14-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post


a summer vacation that was planned around taking the dog because my wife didn't want to be separated from her.

Tough to bring big dogs with you. Much pre-planning and organization needed. Motels, rental houses, parks all have different dog rules.
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 10:18 AM 08-14-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Tough to bring big dogs with you. Much pre-planning and organization needed. Motels, rental houses, parks all have different dog rules.

So true. We actually rented a Cruise America RV, but still had adventures eating out, not to mention the fact that I now know our dog gets badly car sick
Moggie's Avatar Moggie 11:59 AM 08-14-2009
Since my thread has been bumped, I though I'd post a few picture on progress since the last update. I've been slowed by many summer activities and have been tempted to get a little help with the drywall, but I'm committed to making this a DIY project and so have resisted and slowed to pace where I can still enjoy the work.

After the insulation was installed I completed the HVAC system. Following bpape's advice I wanted to enclose a good portion of the duct work inside of a OSB/MDF shell. To partially accomplish this (more will be done inside the theater soffits) I transitioned the 10" pipe duct work into channel made from duct board. I sized the channels to fit exactly into one of the ceiling joist bays so I could encase one length of duct work outside of the theater shell (the rest will be inside the internal soffits). The 13.5"x7" channels that I was able to make out of the 4' wide sheets has a slightly larger area than that of the 10" round duct (87 in/sq vs. 78 in/sq) which means I'm not restricting the air flow. Actually I believe it is a benefit to increase the volume of the duct as it approaches the outlets. Shaping the duct board is pretty straightforward but does require the investment of about $80 worth of cutting tools. Still that is a lot less expensive that having a professional do the install. Here are a few pics that illustrate the process for those that are interested:

Here is a board after the notching is complete. You can see the short section that I made first as a reference before cutting the larger sheets. Basically there are two approaches to notching the duct board prior to folding. You can cut use "V"-grove joints or alternating left and right shiplap joints. The "V" requires a single tool whilst the shiplap requires two: left and right hand orientation. Both also require an end tool. The shiplap joints are considered superior so I opted to that approach.



I purchased my Amcraft cutting tools from Northways Machinery. Initially I was overwhelmed with the choice of tools but in the end it boils down to a color coded system -- I purchased the 'orange', 'brown' and 'blue' tools for 1" duct board.

Here is the most used notching tool:



All you need to cut the duct board after careful measuring is a straight edge. The tools cut very easily:



After notching and cutting the board easily folds and the remaining flap of foil covering is stapled shut:



All that is left is to apply foil tape over the staples and the section is done. Caution: foil tape gives the worst kind of paper cuts. In fact I'm pretty sure you to cut off a finger if you wanted to! Here are a few completed sections:



Because of some the sharp bends I embedded a couple of strategically placed sheet metal vanes to help the air flow. The vanes were made from a cut up pipe of circular pipe. I'm sure they can be found ready-made but this seems to work just fine:



Creating the enclosure I first sealed the top of the joist bay:



Fitted the duct into the bay after opening up a section to butt up against the end of the round duct section (note that there is a special duct work sealant that was used on all connection points like this to create a good seal):



Finally, when sealing up the ceiling (next post) I was sure to carefully seal the joist bay containing the HVAC duct.



To be clear on my approach, what I'm showing here is not the complete extent of the HVAC insulation. I'm still running another 15'-20' of MDF encased duct work inside of the theater soffits in addition to the section run in the ceiling joists. With this approach I can encase an additional 15' of duct. Since I don't have the HT building experience to quantify the law of diminishing returns I figure the more, the better

This is guide I used to learn how to fabricate duct board: Knauf Assembly Instructions
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