New HT project - Silverwood - 16' x 19.5' x 12' - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 354 Old 06-04-2009, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Pic of the day... (or hour, or week, depending on how much progress is happening)

Everything is done... almost...



Please note that I do edit this first post from time to time to make it easier for people to find the most recent and relevant information and pics, so the first page of responses is not necessarily relevant to the current status of the theater. Thanks.

Design philosophy: After researching this forum for about a year and saving images of my favorite theater designs, I formulated my design objective/philosophy... To create a uniquely styled and comfortable dedicated home theater where the room itself is the most important component. The room should have good acoustic properties. Room lighting and accents should be be highly artistic and effective yet not distracting. A/V equipment should be effective but not break the bank, realizing the law of diminishing returns.

Build philosophy: I'm pretty handy, but I'm not going to attempt anything like this by myself... so I hired an artist who is teamed up with A/V professionals and this room is now his canvas (subject to homeowner approval, of course!). I'm sure all the HT designers are craftsmen and take pride in their work... But this guy is an actual artist... who is also handy with a table saw. He designs and builds everything himself and isn't satisfied until it is perfect. I've never met anyone like him before and neither has anyone else working on the rest of the remodel project. When he has an idea, he'll draw it see if I have an interest in it, then actually build a miniature mock up for review... I have to get some pictures of those things to share.

Broke Ground: Oct 2009
Target completion: Sept 2010

Room size and design:
W: 16'
L: 19' - 6"
H: 10' base, up to ~12' above sofits.
Riser: ~16"
Noise isolation: Staggered stud and filled with insulation. Double Drywall with green goo on all surfaces. Also, the room is FAR away from anything or anyone who might be disturbed. HVAC unit is dedicated to the theater and adjacent game room.

Lighting:
7000+ Watts of lighting is going into this room separated into 12-14 groups, each individually controlled on a dimmer switch to allow fine tuning of the scenes. The wiring is in place, but we're not hot yet (4/14/2010) I'll post the dimmer switch and lighting control product information when we get ready to work on this.

Video:
Screen size: ~113" wide
Screen A/R: Going with 2.35...still working out the details.
Projector: Runco LS-5

Speakers:
L/R - Axiom M60
Center - Axiom VP180
Surrounds - Axiom Qs8 (x4)
Subwoofer - SVS PB13 Ultra

Receiver: NAD T765 : My only mandate was that I MUST be able to manually (on the fly) adjust the gain on the center channel. My local HT guys admitted this is nice to have, but said that most people don't ask for that... My question to the audio elite is: how can a room with a fixed audio profile (with presumably perfect calibration) be expected to handle the variability of the recordings in DVD's themselves? I've seen way too many professionally installed systems have terrible speech intelligibility (for some movies) because the center channel is running too quiet for a particular DVD. Anyway, I WILL have a receiver setup that allows me to manually adjust that center channel volume a few DBs. I think my A/V guy is saying that Newcastle receivers do this... And even better, they reset to the default program when shut down.

Media Sources:
Streaming Media: Samsung Blu-ray for now. May look at other options.
Media PC: Going with a HTPC for media storage and using SageTV for the UI.
Blue Ray: Samsung BD-C6900

Thanks!
-John

Here's the layout of the entire addition - While I wish I could add another 3-5 feet, I just can't get it.


Here's the zoom in on the Home Theater.

 

08164 Home Theater.pdf 39.69921875k . file

John

Follow my theater build thread right here: Mario's Art project...
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For more pictures of my theater: Silverwood Theater
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post #2 of 354 Old 06-04-2009, 12:16 PM
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Welcome. I think you'll find this forum full of good folks that are very willing to lend a hand.

That's quite the space you have there. Where are you planning to house the A/V Equipment?

CJ

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post #3 of 354 Old 06-04-2009, 12:34 PM
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Hi and welcome.

I'd rethink the TV. Unless you get something around 10' wide it's going to be tiny. Also, I'd look at getting the seats off the back wall. Finally, I'd advise you to use a theater designer and not an architect to pull the plans together. Does your guy understand theater acoustics?

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post #4 of 354 Old 06-04-2009, 12:52 PM
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I have about the same size place I am starting on. This should be interesting. Some speakers are designed to work well with with chairs against the wall. Specifically the Axiom Qs8s work well in that configuration.

The Spiral Staircase Theater Build Thread
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post #5 of 354 Old 06-04-2009, 01:57 PM
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I'm his brother. He's not that into the technology yet but I've been recommending Axiom speakers for him. We're pretty sure we're going for the QS8s and depending on what he does with the front screen (not a TV, the architect just called it that on the plans...) and the wall it hangs on we might go with some of their in walls or bookshelves like the M22.

I've been pushing for the equipment to go in front on the side or below the screen because it is easier to load a disk, rather than climbing over the rear seats.

Equipment will likely be:
Onkyo Receiver like an 806. Or maybe a Denon. He is partial to Harman Kardon but they lack new technologies.
Big SVS sub. Maybe a cylinder or two
Axiom Bookshelves and QS8s in 7.1
Unknown Projector
Unknown Screen
Unknown Blu-ray player
Wii
Satellite box w/ DVR
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post #6 of 354 Old 06-04-2009, 04:52 PM
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I'd make the room 3 feet longer. 1ft behind the rear seats and 2 feet for a false fabric wall hiding speakers up front. Add a stage and proscenium to make it feel like a real theater and give the space the WOW factor.
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post #7 of 354 Old 06-04-2009, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Z,

Thanks for introducing yourself, I'll keep my eye on your build. I've spent the last three weeks working out the room size and this was the best I could and I'm really happy with the size. Now, I'll just have to design the audio to compensate as best it can.

John

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For more pictures of my theater: Silverwood Theater
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post #8 of 354 Old 06-04-2009, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carboranadum View Post

Welcome. I think you'll find this forum full of good folks that are very willing to lend a hand.

That's quite the space you have there. Where are you planning to house the A/V Equipment?

CJ

It's not my favorite spot for equipment (in a perfect HT), but the best space available to me for equipment is a the 5'x5' closet in the back left corner of the room. It has excellent rear access, lots of room to work and should have plenty of ventilation options.

John

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post #9 of 354 Old 06-06-2009, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Picked my chairs. Stressless by Ekornes

John

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post #10 of 354 Old 06-06-2009, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscifres View Post

My wife and I just settled on our front row seats today. They are from the Stressless line by Ekornes.

They are super comfortable - like a Volvo seat
They individually recline without the footrest (really nice for me since I'm 6'7" and just about every recliner I'd tried doesn't have the length in the footrest and my feet dangle off the end) so I'll be putting my feet up on the ottoman.

Congrats on these--we felt the same and ordered two of the 3-seater Arions. I like them for the back row because without the footrest they can be pulled a couple feet forward, away from the back wall. Just a thought.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #11 of 354 Old 06-06-2009, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Congrats on these--we felt the same and ordered two of the 3-seater Arions. I like them for the back row because without the footrest they can be pulled a couple feet forward, away from the back wall. Just a thought.

Hi Roger,

John

Follow my theater build thread right here: Mario's Art project...
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post #12 of 354 Old 06-06-2009, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Congrats on these--we felt the same and ordered two of the 3-seater Arions. I like them for the back row because without the footrest they can be pulled a couple feet forward, away from the back wall. Just a thought.

Hi Roger,

One other thing... do you have a completed picture of your theater with those seats? I'm still seeking direction on my interior design and it would be interesting to see these seats in a completed theater.

John

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post #13 of 354 Old 06-07-2009, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscifres View Post

Hi Roger,

That's great to hear about these seats working in the back row too... How far do you have to place them from the wall to allow them to recline fully?

As I don't have them yet, can't say exactly. As I recall, they do not recline very far, maybe 6" behind the rear legs, max. And without the headrests it's of course a little less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscifres View Post

One other thing... do you have a completed picture of your theater with those seats? I'm still seeking direction on my interior design and it would be interesting to see these seats in a completed theater.

The theater is about 75% complete, and the Arions (black Batick leather) are not due to arrive from Norway until end of June. The color scheme is:
deep red and black paint, wood trim with medium stain, black GOM acoustic panels, and olive green carpet. The room is smaller than yours, just 11.5' wide, 17' long, 8' high. 13" tall riser extends 70" from back.

I'm taking pictures of the build, but haven't posted any yet. Here's a couple of teasers.

In the first one you see the timber frame arch which is 3' from the front wall, and behind it will be the drop-down screen and motorized black velvet drapes.
Attachment 144665

The next picture shows the ceiling cloud installed, and the diffusor panels on the side walls near the surround speaker boxes.
Attachment 144666

The last picture shows the Center speaker and power amps on a stand I made of oak. The speaker is at 5 degrees tilt as it will be right at the bottom edge of the screen, 27" off the floor.
Attachment 144668

Oh, and here's a picture of a nice home theater in Norway using Ekornes seating:


LL
LL
LL

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #14 of 354 Old 06-07-2009, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Roger,

Thanks for sharing some early details on your build, as it sounds like you are building a very nice room. Also, a big thank you for sending me that picture of the theater in Norway. I'm really glad to see how good those seats look in there. And, although I was thinking about a more traditional design in my theater... that theater looks great and is probably more in tune with the design of the seats. Simple, elegant, Clean.

John

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post #15 of 354 Old 06-08-2009, 10:21 AM
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The seats look great. Any idea what you are doing for the speakers? Building them into cabinets along the screen? where and how are you placing the subwoofers? Subs tucked in a cabinet don't leave flexibility for room tuning and can get boomy if not designed right.

John seems to have trouble with center channel clarity on systems he's auditioned. I've never had an issue with my Axioms. Has that been a problem for anyone else? Is easy access to a center channel level button important?
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post #16 of 354 Old 06-09-2009, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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If what I'm reading on the forums is correct, it would seem that my primary concern with regard to speakers should be to try to fit 3 identical speakers on my screen wall to cover Left, center and right.

Sounds like horizontal speakers are a big compromise. I'm thinking that given the height of my room (10' minimum), I should have room to use three identical speakers. But I'm not really interested in doing a perforated screen, so that would mean I have to place a vertical speaker above or below my screen... Ok, so there's room, but that would end up not being at the same level as my L & R front speakers...

So if three identical speakers with a perf screen is ideal, what is the least compromise if I don't do a perf screen?

1. Left - cabinet mid level, Center - above screen, Right -Cabinet mid level
2. All speakers placed on the same level under the screen and angled up
3. All speakers placed on the same level over the screen and angled down
4. Left - cabinet mid level, Center - below screen, Right -Cabinet mid level

John

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post #17 of 354 Old 06-10-2009, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscifres View Post

If what I'm reading on the forums is correct, it would seem that my primary concern with regard to speakers should be to try to fit 3 identical speakers on my screen wall to cover Left, center and right.

Sounds like horizontal speakers are a big compromise. I'm thinking that given the height of my room (10' minimum), I should have room to use three identical speakers. But I'm not really interested in doing a perforated screen, so that would mean I have to place a vertical speaker above or below my screen... Ok, so there's room, but that would end up not being at the same level as my L & R front speakers...

So if three identical speakers with a perf screen is ideal, what is the least compromise if I don't do a perf screen?

1. Left - cabinet mid level, Center - above screen, Right -Cabinet mid level
2. All speakers placed on the same level under the screen and angled up
3. All speakers placed on the same level over the screen and angled down
4. Left - cabinet mid level, Center - below screen, Right -Cabinet mid level

IMHO, Option 4. When you say mid level, let's refine that to mean the tweeters are roughly ear level for the "money" row--that's about 40". With a 10' ceiling, your screen can be as high as maybe 30" off the floor. That means the difference in height between L/R and center would be about 1 foot, whereas if the center speaker is above the screen, it would be 3-4' higher than L/R. It's much better if the heights L/C/R can be kept within 2' or less to promote smoother lateral panning.

The problem with horizontal center speakers is usually that they are 2-way designs, and it's not possible to obtain good off-axis response because the woofers run too high in freq and cause lobing. With a 3-way speaker, with a vertically stacked tweeter/midrange, this problem can be avoided. Yes, if you can use 3 identical speakers, great. But with careful selection, other options can work well, too. To see an example of the preferred driver config, see the Triad In-Room Gold LCR.

In either case, do tilt the C speaker up so it aims directly at the listener's heads. That will keep the drivers better aligned for best response.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #18 of 354 Old 06-10-2009, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscifres View Post

I've seen way too many professionally installed systems have terrible speech intelligibility (for some movies) because the center channel is running too quiet for a particular DVD.

If you aren't already, plan on acoustic treatments, and perhaps some advice on where to put them (there are some guys here who help on that front).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscifres View Post

My wife and I just settled on our front row seats today. They are from the Stressless line by Ekornes.

Those are really sharp looking seats with great features. I assume they aren't cheap, what kind of ballpark do they run in your config (if you don't mind).

I think you should consider flipping the room and entering from the rear, at the riser level with the step outside the room. It is much more dramatic. Might require you to flip the orientation of the door (or it might hit the seats), which CA code might not like. Worth looking into though.
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post #19 of 354 Old 06-10-2009, 10:30 AM
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Is off axis response really that much of an issue? I haven't noticed it on my two way horizontal Axiom VP100.

He could also go with two centers, one above and one below the screen. A couple of small bookshelves would work well for this. Wired in parallel. It does require a bit more amp but it could be worth it so the money seats and the back seats get good sound.

If he is hiding his speakers behind acoustic fabric, mounted in cabinets, does he need to worry about having rear ported speakers? Should they have ports in front? Or be sealed boxes?
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post #20 of 354 Old 06-10-2009, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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In case anyone is interested, I posted a request for advice on speakers from Axiom. They do have a pretty neat request form which helps them recommend a system. I know they are probably steering me to some of their more expensive stuff, but at the same time, the extra cost isn't going to break the bank, so why not go with the config recommended by the speaker company themselves?

Note: I did especially appreciate the recommendation for the receiver given my request for center volume control.

Here's my request, which I sent along with the current floor plan.

------------------------------------

I'm seeking advice on a 7.1 system setup with Axiom speakers. I'm thinking of using the following setup for 7.1...

Axiom Audio M22 bookshelf
Axiom Audio VP150 center Channel
Axiom Audio QS8 surround Speakers
Axiom Audio EP 350 sub for decent bass or EP500 for big time bass

The room is 16'x19'x10' (WxLxH) with a raised ceiling (up to 12') centered in the middle of the room. Attached is a floorplan with approximate seating configuration.

Here's the response from Axiom's "expert".

Hi John,

My name is JC (Jean-Claude). I am an expert audio advisor at Axiom.

I thank you for your interest in Axiom Award-winning audio speakers and taking the time to send us in your request. Your sketch is well done and is very helpful.

You seem concerned about the center speaker level and dialog intelligibility. I am proposing you a system which will exceed your expectations on the performance of the center speaker avoiding the need to constantly play with the volume level. Once the initial adjustment and set-up completed there will be no need to modify its level.

For your application, you should consider the Axiom Epic 60 – 500 in an 8.1 configuration Home Theatre Ensemble - http://www.axiomaudio.com/epic60_500.html. It consists of a 7.1 system (main left, main right, center, side surround left, side surround right, rear surround left, rear surround right and a subwoofer) with an additional center speaker. You install one center speaker on a wall bracket or a stand below the screen aiming at the ear level of the first row of seated listeners and a second one mounted on a wall or ceiling bracket aiming at the ear level of the second row of seated listeners.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/fullmetalbracket.html
http://www.axiomaudio.com/fullmetalceilingbracket.html
http://www.axiomaudio.com/fmscc.html

Furthermore, the Axiom VP150v2 center speaker offers exceptional dialog intelligibility with superior dispersion. The Newcastle A/V receiver R-872 will be able to power both center speakers from its single pair of center channel binding posts. The Newcastle A/V receiver is warmly recommended by Axiom to power its brand of speakers. You can buy it from Axiom benefiting from free delivery and the 5% home theatre discount.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/sherwood_r872.html

The Newcastle offers you the flexibility to adjust independently the center speaker volume level if you desire.

For the main speakers a tower or floor standing model would be more appropriate for your application it will provide you with a fuller and smoother room filling sound at lower volume which you prefer. I will email back your sketch from my personal Axiom email account with a suggestion to position your Axiom speakers shortly.

Thanks again for your e-mail! If you would like me to me to follow-up directly by phone, just drop me a line with an appropriate time and a number for me to do so. Alternatively, you are always welcome to dial Axiom's toll-free number (1-866-244-8796) - any of our Audio Experts would be pleased to help.

Have a nice day!

JC

John

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post #21 of 354 Old 06-10-2009, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

If you aren't already, plan on acoustic treatments, and perhaps some advice on where to put them (there are some guys here who help on that front).


Those are really sharp looking seats with great features. I assume they aren't cheap, what kind of ballpark do they run in your config (if you don't mind).



I think you should consider flipping the room and entering from the rear, at the riser level with the step outside the room. It is much more dramatic. Might require you to flip the orientation of the door (or it might hit the seats), which CA code might not like. Worth looking into though.

Thanks, and yeah, I do plan to have acoustic treatments in the room. I started out kind of thinking I'd hire a home theater professional to design and install the room, but as I move forward, I'm realizing that I'm kind of making more decisions on the design than I expected. That, and wiring should be pretty easy in my room, given all the access points (attic, interior walls, dedicated A/V closet...)

UPDATE: APRIL 2010... I did end up hiring someone pretty awesome...

The seats are REALLY great, especially for a tall guy like myself because the headrest extends and there is no built in footrest that ends up being too short for me. But, they really aren't cheap. Some of the most expensive chairs I'd seen in some HT stores were around $1400/seat. The furniture store selling my seats is asking $9500 for my four seat config. I asked if that price was negotiable and she said no. But, I have to believe there is some discount to be had. When I get closer to a final interior design, I will start calling around and see who will give me a price break.
I can flip the door to open outside the HT quite easily and it was something I was considering regardless of the room layout inside. I hadn't thought of putting a step up to the back riser outside the door. I'm not sure if the benefit is enough to justify the awkwardness of the steps intruding into my game room, but at this point, I'm still open to ideas.

John

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post #22 of 354 Old 04-06-2010, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
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UPDATE: April 2010...Theater under construction... Posting pictures asap

John

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post #23 of 354 Old 04-06-2010, 11:37 PM
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Nice to see another cozy room going in! Good luck with it.

Roger's thread provides plently of good ideas for rooms of this size.....you could also have a look at mine, but its very, very early days

Roger, those seats are very nice, we're planning something similar for our back row....when it happens. I still want something comfy for the money seats though

Oh one last thing, you're going to want multiple subs and wire for every possible location - I've made my bed on this front having already purchased, which I reget having learnt many a thing about the issue

Peter the Greek

Downunder Theatre MkII
Redefining snail pace construction
"what is worth knowing is difficult to learn"

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post #24 of 354 Old 04-06-2010, 11:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Been a while... long story short: 1) I've been remodeling my house for about 6 months and the home theater was a key reason to move forward with the project, and 2) I hired an artist to build out my theater, albeit an artist with a few tricks up his sleeve...

I need to post some sequential pics of the buildout, but I can't wait to post some teaser shots of how the theater looks right now...

I will be trying to post an organized build thread here, but I'm way behind, so I may be doing more current updates vs. rehashing the early stuff.

For the record, I'm of the philosophy that the theater itself is the most important component here, so the design and build out of the room has been my primary focus to date (making sure that we keep acoustics in mind all the time).

The style may not be for everyone, but I hope you can appreciate the detail going forward.
LL
LL
LL

John

Follow my theater build thread right here: Mario's Art project...
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post #25 of 354 Old 04-07-2010, 12:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Several more images...

Walking in...

Teardrops spaning soffit

Teardrops span about 18 inches down from the raised ceiling

One of the lighting fixtures...

Scale image

John

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post #26 of 354 Old 04-07-2010, 05:17 AM
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Wow. Very cool. Can't wait to see the final product.

Adam

My Theater build
Ribbed for your pleasure
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post #27 of 354 Old 04-07-2010, 05:27 AM
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wow, thats one special ceilimg!

Peter the Greek

Downunder Theatre MkII
Redefining snail pace construction
"what is worth knowing is difficult to learn"

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post #28 of 354 Old 04-07-2010, 08:07 AM
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Wow, what a ceiling, it resembles to guitar chamber, just out of curiosity, what is the big ideas behind of this particular design? Does this design carries some specific acoustic properties?
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post #29 of 354 Old 04-07-2010, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theWalkinator View Post

Wow, what a ceiling, it resembles to guitar chamber, just out of curiosity, what is the big ideas behind of this particular design? Does this design carries some specific acoustic properties?

Aside from installing a lot of curves, points and general randomness in the acoustic reflection angles, the short answer is...no.

A slightly longer answer is that there are two guys working on this theater. One is the interior designer/builder and the other is a reputable A/V installer. The two have worked on a few significant installations together before, with very nice results and the acoustics were definitely considered before the A/V guy ok'd this design.

The teardrops on the ceiling will likely be filled with insulation to avoid any undesirable reverberation.

John

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post #30 of 354 Old 04-07-2010, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are some images from the early stages of construction

Staggered Studs (sure make it tough to move around the house during construction...


Future screen wall...


Good picture showing the back wall of the theater and the optima blown in insulation. In the hopefully VERY distant future, if or when I decide to sell, the new owner COULD easily rip out the HT and convert this room to a master guest suite because the back wall already has a header in for a door to access a full bath. There's also a header in place which would allow for a sliding glass window and access to the patio outside (barely visible in this image on upper right corner). The A/V equipment room is on the left. You can see the ducting on the bottom left which will be: 1) an air return placed in the riser, and 2) a duct to pull air from the theater into the equipment room when a temp controlled fan kicks on.


Ceiling is coved, finished and ready for paint...


Painting primer on screen wall...


Sofit has a black base and the upper ceiling is a darker royal blue, illuminated by blue rope lights above the sofit...

Ready for to install teardrop ceiling beams!

John

Follow my theater build thread right here: Mario's Art project...
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