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post #1 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Today I build a screen using BOC. It came out pretty good. I Built it so I can get a idea on what size I want to go with. On the wall my PJ throws a 126 image. I would like to build some type of false wall to hide my speakers. My speakers are pretty small. Only 3 1/2 inch deep. So the screen would need to come out a few inches if I build a false wall and want it to be flush with the screen. I plan on getting a Carada Criterion..

I wanted to build a false wall to hide the speakers and all because I was told it will help the contrast of the picture and also make it more cinematic and like your looking through a window instead of a big tv on the wall.

Do you guys think I should make the false wall flush with the screen? If I do this I will have to bring the screen out a few inches from the wall so instead of a 126 inch I probably will have to go with 120-122..

Or I can get a 126inch screen just mount it on the wall and have the false wall come out past the screen so it still covers the speakers..Kind of like in the picture below..





My False wall will be much smaller than that one in the pic.

Anyone have any ideas for me??


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post #2 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 05:34 AM
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Having the screen set back in a shadow box fashion and covering the shadow box area with black velvet is one of the many typical ways of utilizing a false wall.

A velvet covered black shadow box will absorb some of the stray light from the screen and really makes the image pop.

Bud

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post #3 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 05:49 AM
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Either will work. If you're taking speakers not designed to be used in a cabinet (most are not of course), you're better off with a design like you posted anyway, to minimize speaker boundary interference issues.
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post #4 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 06:07 AM
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You could also consider going acoustically transparent on the screen and putting the speakers behind the screen itself. This would allow for a wider (possibly 2.35:1 aspect) screen and a more minimalist screen wall (ie: easy to build and nice clean lines).

I'm a big fan of AT and scope screens.


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post #5 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys..

I originally planned on using a AT screen but some home theater stores told me the picture quality isn't to good with AT screens..Im all about pq! Also I was told you need to have the screen so many inches away from the speakers for a AT screen..


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post #6 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 01:57 PM
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You need to go to a different store then. AT screens like SMX produce top notch image quality. And yes, you need a few inches between the screen and the speakers. Same thing thing with needing space between the speakers and the wall. Most can make a AT set-up work with around 2 - 2.5' of space.

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post #7 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 02:20 PM
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I'm more about the whole package. I'd gladly give up a (very) small amount of PQ for an improved sound stage. The HT experience is about sound and video... not one over the other.

That said, my SMX screen has fantastic picture quality. I have absolutely no regrets.

My speakers sit about 3 inches back from the material.


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post #8 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
I originally planned on using a AT screen but some home theater stores told me the picture quality isn't to good with AT screens

Yup...you do need to find a shop with knowledge rather than opinions.

http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/res...esidential.pdf

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post #9 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 03:17 PM
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---Lifted from an post somewhere else on the forum ... couldn't find it. ;(

The quality (both audio and video) of the various AT screens available can be easily determined with objective measurements. Certainly, any vendor is going to pick a spec or two which would improve their product's marketing over a competitor. (I like Toyota's recent market campaign ... if everyone is comparing their car to a Camry, why not just buy the Camry.)

The more difficult is the AT vs non-AT discussion (and often the unfounded or entrenched POV's in some quarters). On the one hand it's "AT screws with my VQ" and on the other "AT screws with my audio quality". Great glittering generalities designed (IMHO) to instill FUD, rather than deal with the issues. Let's look at some of these (I am not starting a debate, just laying the matter on the table):

But first, I want you all to try this experiment. Insert the BluRay of Winton Marcellis playing in concert. The amps, speakers are OFF. You are watching on a perfect screen, with a perfect projector (or even just a Meridian 810). You must watch the entire performance. Next, replay the entire performance but turn on the sound system and turn off the projector. Which of the two sessions resulted in the greatest satisfaction? Repeat the same experiment with any good action film. It each case, was the experience audio driven or video driven?

-- Audio Quality
Comb filtering. There's just a gob of arm waving here. Can there be comb filtering? Yup. However, there are several components here (just saying "comb filter" is nothing more than a deliberate FUD factor designed only as a scare tactic). We we look to the recent research on comb filtering (Floyd Toole and others), we can find that (1) comb filtering can actually improve spatial qualities; (2) there are very, very few circumstances where it is audible (usually modal or SBIR problems are being heard, not comb filtering); and, (3) the frequencies where comb filtering can occur due to an AT screen, that filtering is not audible nor measureable at seating distances appropriate to the screen.

Other Audio Distortions. While it is free game to suggest something between you and your speakers is going to distroy your sound experience, what is being ignored is the adverse impact of a big piece of solid vinyl on the front wall of your room behind your speakers. Where's the concern about SBIR and early reflections in this case (carefully forgotten, I'd guess). If audio quality is such a primary concern, then how is it the very same individual would tolerate a timbre mismatch between the L/R and center speakers when the center must be a horizontal cabinet, at a different height and not in line of sight of the second (or greater) row of seating? These are truly very audible distortions.
HF Roll Off. In one sense this is sad that it has become an issue. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen someone install the Cinematic processor (to compensate for the HF roll off) and then turn on THX Re-EQ. What does THX Re-EQ do? Roll off the high frequency content to compensate for the acoustic differences between large spaces (mix stages) and small rooms. The real problem here is until you actually measure the room, you really, really don't know if it needs to be restored or not. The near field measurement of your speakers will provide a clue ... oh, you don't do near field measurements? Oops. (By-the-way, Stewart provides three of the cinematic processors if you specify all three speakers will be behind the screen at no additional charge.)

We have a room with three Aerial 20Ts behind the screen. We've had some very anal pros comment on the great audio quality of the space. It helps that the noise criteria (measured by a third party) is 18NC.

In the end, there are a host of bigger fish to fry in order to obtain extreme audio playback quality then what an AT screen might do and that's iqnoring the acoustic benefits an AT screen imparts to the overall result.

-- Video Quality
Light loss. MicroPerf is approximately 10%...woven screens are much greater some are more than double that. To put this in perspective, if a solid screen/projector combination provides 22 ft lamberts, the microperf will provide just under 20 ft lamberts. The human eye cannot perceive a 10% difference in illumination (part of the "green" function of whole house lighting systems...lights when fully on are really dimmed to 90% if your lighting designer has done his/her job properly). SMPTE standard is 16 ft lamberts...today the preference by users is between 18 and 22 ft lamberts. For many, 20 ft lamberts is too bright in a light controlled room (going much beyond that, you'll destroy your ANSI CR).

Distortion artifacts/loss of resolution. No discernable loss. Let's attack this logically assuming 20/20 vision. At 20/20 vision your visual acuity (resolution of your eyes) is 1/20 degree of arc. MicroPerf is designed deliberately such that at distances greater than 8', the perforations will be less than 1/20 degree of arc. Any loss of resolution, as a result of the MicroPerfs, will also fall below 1/20 degree of arc and hence will not be detectable by 20/20 vision. Moiré is no longer an issue and hasn't been for several years. SMPTE reference viewing rooms (AMPAS screening rooms for example) use either CinePerf or MicroPerf screens for judging film and video quality (CinePerf is bigger holes but, the rooms are bigger and seating distances are greater and outside 1/20th degree of arc.) Obviously, we know that SMPTE and AMPAS don't care or know a twit about audio and video quality. Woven screens? Let's just say that they don't provide a flat surface and most manufacturers of woven screens have a problem with coatings.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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post #10 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisx510 View Post

Thanks guys..

I originally planned on using a AT screen but some home theater stores told me the picture quality isn't to good with AT screens..Im all about pq! Also I was told you need to have the screen so many inches away from the speakers for a AT screen..

My 'original' dealer said the same exact thing. In fact, he went so far as to say he would not install an AT screen unless the customer asbsolutely insisted upon it because it would 'degrade' the audio. Guess what happened? Because of those comments (after doing extensive research on AVS) I ended up not choosing them because of their single-mindedness. Ended up with an SmX ST 2:35 screen and have absolutely NO regrets. The JVC RS20 throws a jaw-dropping image off of it. If you have doubts check out the many screen shots posted, or even better, if you can, demo one in person.


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post #11 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisx510 View Post

Only 3 1/2 inch deep. So the screen would need to come out a few inches if I build a false wall and want it to be flush with the screen.

You might also want to consider what you'll do if you upgrade your speakers.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #12 of 19 Old 06-24-2009, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Dennis,

You make me want to go and get a AT screen now! Stewarts AT screens are out of my budget though. To bad Carada didnt make a nice AT screen.


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post #13 of 19 Old 06-24-2009, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Does SMX sell just the screen fabric?


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post #14 of 19 Old 06-25-2009, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisx510 View Post

Does SMX sell just the screen fabric?

Not anymore... but you can get very similar stuff (Sheerweave 4500) from SeymourAV.com or try their new AT material.


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post #15 of 19 Old 06-25-2009, 05:20 AM
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Dennis, i'm playing devils advocate here, but what about screen material such as that produced by Patrice Congard and the Screen Excellence team, especially the 4k material seen here - http://www.screenexcellence.com/scre...ightor-4k.html

Importers & Distributors of Artcoustic Loudspeakers, CineVersum Projectors, Screen Excellence Screens.
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post #16 of 19 Old 06-25-2009, 06:55 AM
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First clue of a problem: Black backing required.
Second Clue: No third party independent lab test reports.
No measurements showing surface height variations within a 200x200 pixel area.
No half gain angles or viewing cone measurements.
Meets SMPTE guidelines (which ones)?
Do they manufacture their own materials? Coatings? What's their quality control process? Which of the principals of the company have a video engineering background?

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post #17 of 19 Old 06-25-2009, 08:16 AM
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I'm with everyone, AT is the way to go, as you can get a larger screen, plus 2.35 scope, etc.

I built my 2.35 screen, using some cheap AT fabric I found on ebay. I can't remember the name right now...I think the brand was Danzig or something like that.

Anyway, the fabric was like $50 or $60, and the wood (1x3 Poplar, and 3" MDF floor moulding) came to about $50 or so, plus the black velvteen fabric at $20 or so, so I spent $140 or so for a 128" diagonal Wide 2.35 scope.

I have a Panny AE3000, and I honestly don't see any PQ issues. Probably not as nice as SMX and all those other brands, but I like what I see, and like the price tag as well. I mainly watch BluRay, which look stunning, but even DVDs look great as well. I would compare DVD quality to the quality I see in movie theaters. Although maybe one day I'll upgrade to those motorized auto masking screens from SMX or whoever...

Also, can anyone's ear really tell the difference in sound quality when speakers are behind an AT fabric? I know my ears cannot.
anyhow, another vote for AT.
Old.

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post #18 of 19 Old 06-25-2009, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamis View Post

Not anymore... but you can get very similar stuff (Sheerweave 4500) from SeymourAV.com or try their new AT material.

Are you referring to their Center Stage XD woven fabric when you say "new AT material"?
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post #19 of 19 Old 06-25-2009, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Are you referring to their Center Stage XD woven fabric when you say "new AT material"?

Yes, that's it. Nice material!
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