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post #1 of 96 Old 08-24-2009, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay. I have been using AVS forums for years, albeit off and on. I have the green light to go ahead and finish my entire basement, which will include a guest suite, bathroom, fitness area, large open play area, and a HT. The dimensions of the HT are 17' 5' wide by 18' 8' deep. I can do deeper if need be, but not wider. Unfortunately, the guys that build the house tried to make things somewhat difficult for me, and I already have issues coming up. Here's the first string of questions related to the planning stages.

My house was build with ibeams for joists. They are basically 2 2x4's with a slit in them and them some plywood looking material making the vertical part if the I. These are spaced at 16".

The first issue is that there are plumber pipes, gas lines and a HUGE HVAC thing running perpindicular to all the joists. They are pinned to the bottom of the joists, running perpindicular (which saved them time and made a HA for me). Most of the pipes and gas lines are small....so, here is question #1:

1) Can I use some sort of Hat and decoupling system to lower the ceiling about 1.5 from the existing joists, leaving room for the pluming and gas lines? I know that these systems are not cheap, but moving the gas line alone....oh I can only imagine what that would cost.

Second issue is the seating issue. I want 2 rows of 3 chairs. I have lots of room across for these, but depth wise I am concerned. I read that I should have the front row 2x the screen size in distance. For my 100" screen, that would mean over 16 feet out and the room is only 18' 8' deep to begin with.

2) Does the x2 rule still apply when there are more than one row of seats? I made a tape mock up on the wall of 100 inch screen and 16' back seemed really far back for row #1.

3) I have a big old HVAC run that runs the length of the house. It is on the theater ceiling as depicted below by the double line. Circles can be ignored. Spaced don't work for the ascii image.


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|==============|
|oooooooooooooooo|
|oooooooooooooooo|
|oooooooooooooooo|
|oooooooooooooooo|
|oooooooooooooooo|
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Should I just move the N face down so the HVAC is behind the wall, for simplicity sake and a give up those 24"? That would take the room down from 17'5" to 15'5" but would make framing easier. I could gain back the space if I used a Hanging Interior Soffit.

More questions to follow.
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post #2 of 96 Old 08-24-2009, 10:45 AM
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I think the 2x rule was for screen door issues. You can sit closer with a 1080p PJ if you wish. But you'll have to decide if you want a 16:9 screen or a 2.35 screen.

If you think you might like an acoustically transparent screen you might want to grab a few more feet of depth. The width is pretty decent. How high are the ceilings?

Read the 4th link in my sig, get a photobucket account and take some pictures and a better floorplan (show the entire basement for the best tips).

DIY or pro?

Clips or separate joists (room in a room is a great plus for sound isolation) will probably help with your pipes. I think clips and hat channel drop you like 1 5/8ths inch if memory serves. Little close, but you could add strapping or something if needed.
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post #3 of 96 Old 08-24-2009, 11:09 AM
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1080p projector? 1x screen width to first row. Nice sized room... I'd almost go 2 rows of 4 seats and orient the screen on a short wall.
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post #4 of 96 Old 08-24-2009, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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The room ceiling is an odd height. I measure 7' 8" from concrete floor to bottom of the joists.

Here is my sketch up diagram:


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post #5 of 96 Old 08-24-2009, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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If I want to hide my dipole speakers in columns, do I just make a column where the top part is open and covered in speaker cloth? I searched the forums and could not find much on columns other than for those that wanted to place DIY speakers into those columns.
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post #6 of 96 Old 08-24-2009, 08:10 PM
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Plenty of folks handle their surround channels in columns that way. If you are going to do that, it suggests you might want to go with an AT screen and hide the LCRs too.
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post #7 of 96 Old 08-24-2009, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelfling View Post

1) Can I use some sort of Hat and decoupling system to lower the ceiling about 1.5 from the existing joists, leaving room for the pluming and gas lines? I know that these systems are not cheap, but moving the gas line alone....oh I can only imagine what that would cost.

I had a gas pipe removed and switched over to flex pipe that ran up in and through the joists. Wasn't that expensive. Made a significant difference in what I was able to do with my game room height. Don't rule it out without getting a quote. This is actually easier than drain pipe that needs to gravity drain.

Man, that took longer than I thought it would...

Loganed 4/6/08 Logan's Hero 5/1/08

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post #8 of 96 Old 08-25-2009, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I took a long hard look at the gas pipe line and I think I can move it myself. Its already a flexpipe (looks like a thick yellow garden hose) and there is a simply kill valve and I have enough slack I think to reroute it the right way.

I have three plumbing lines and I am certain I can do that myself.

The big issue I have now is the HVAC line. I really want to decouple this room bu building a "room in a room" and I just don't see how that's possible with the way the HVAC run is situated. The line is made of what feels like very thick cardboard. The part of the run in the theater area has 3 seperate lines that come off it. Its flat up against the Ibeams, so using a Soffit just does not seem like it would work. Before I post this I will make a picture in sketchup and if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears. I am about to just place the wall ahead of the HVAC and loose those 30 inches. Its 30 inches in the width, not the depth, and even without the 30 inches I still have ~15 feet.




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post #9 of 96 Old 08-25-2009, 03:36 PM
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8 ft poured wall-4 inche poured floor= 7'8" ceiling height

Where is the door for the HT on the back wall? If it is toward the center you could make a soffite over the HVAC trunk and put a matching one on the other side of the room for symetry.
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post #10 of 96 Old 08-25-2009, 07:58 PM
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You can put the wall in front of the AC duct, but it doesn't have to be totally wasted space. You can use that space for an equipment rack, media or book shelf, seating alcove, wet or dry bar, large fish tank, etc.
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post #11 of 96 Old 08-25-2009, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelfling View Post


1) Can I use some sort of Hat and decoupling system to lower the ceiling about 1.5 from the existing joists, leaving room for the pluming and gas lines? I know that these systems are not cheap, but moving the gas line alone....oh I can only imagine what that would cost.

I am running into the same problem. My gas pipe and a couple small cpvc water pipes are running perpendicular to the joists in my basement. I bought the wisper clip decoupling system from the Soundproofing Company and based on my discussions with them and the instructions they provided me, it would lower my ceiling 1 and 5/8 inches with the hats. All I needed was 1.5" so it worked for me so it should work for you. The only problem is that with double drywall and green glue, in total I would lose close to 3" in ceiling height (going from 7'9" to 7'6"). You may have higher ceilings so it might not be a big deal to lose 3".
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post #12 of 96 Old 08-25-2009, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I think after 3 hours of messing with Sketchup and staring at joices I think I have it. As a previous poster suggested I CAN use a soffit to cover the HVAC. The hard part was that in order to make a box within a box, I will need to lower the HVAC about 1 inch to give my new "internal joists" (not sure what else to call them) sufficient clearance. The HVAC is held up with pices of fabric nailed to the joists, so lowering = easy. The existing joists are 12" tall to I can easily place in 2x6 or 2x8 to make the span of 17 feet. I'm pretty sure I need 2x8's, but the load calculators don't do well with stuff that has 0 for one of the weight variables.

Finally, I managed to get 5 chairs AND a bar into my "tiny" room. What do you think of this design. Double pocket doors in the back.




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post #13 of 96 Old 08-25-2009, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Here it is in pic form.


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post #14 of 96 Old 09-18-2009, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'm moving forward. Moved a few pipes around since my last post. Had a General Contractor give me a bid for the whole basement. I felt the bid was VERY high or I'm very cheap or both. I had a HVAC guy out today. My plans did get changed as well from above. I now have a plan I am VERY happy with. You will see the bars are now on the sides, since they are really only going to be used when there are sports on the screen. Therefore, being off to the side seemed more approp. I also swapped pocket doors for French doors per Ted's advice.

I got all my stuff from the SoundProofCompany. Can't say enough positive things about that experience.

I bought my hat rack today and got very confused. I got the 25g stuff but measured across the bottom of the rack and it was 2.75". I called the guys at Soundproofing and explained that the clips seemed to fit really well on the rack. I now believe, that this 2.75" is inaccurate and is the results of the hat itself being "smushed" while on the rack. If I apply pressure to the side of the hat, it measures ~2.5 when the verticle parts of the hat are in fact verticle. Take a look at the below pics and see if you think it fits well. They are kind of fuzzy because my camera does not like close ups.






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post #15 of 96 Old 09-18-2009, 07:16 PM
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Ted White will confirm that the hat channel seamed edge to edge dimension BEFORE mounting into the RSIC clip should be between 2 1/2" and 2 5/8" max. using SPC supplied clips. If you're measuring 2 3/4" then it's too big to seat properly in the clip.

I found sparkling new 2.5" channel at HD believe it or not, but only in 10' lengths. It was Marino/Ware product (found that on the bundle strap). If you go to their webpage (marinoware.com) you'll probably see quite a few building supply houses where you're located under "Distributors".
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post #16 of 96 Old 09-19-2009, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

Ted White will confirm that the hat channel seamed edge to edge dimension BEFORE mounting into the RSIC clip should be between 2 1/2" and 2 5/8" max. using SPC supplied clips. If you're measuring 2 3/4" then it's too big to seat properly in the clip.

I found sparkling new 2.5" channel at HD believe it or not, but only in 10' lengths. It was Marino/Ware product (found that on the bundle strap). If you go to their webpage (marinoware.com) you'll probably see quite a few building supply houses where you're located under "Distributors".

Thanks fotto. I value your opinion since you went through so much with your channels. I went down this morning and took a digital caliper to the track and made measurements down its length. The average across was ~2.6" so I think I am okay. I knew the WC looked like it was seated right, and could not understand why my tapemeasure was saying 2.75". I think maybe I should have spent more than $3 on a tape measure.
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post #17 of 96 Old 09-21-2009, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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It looks like I might get my way and end up doing a lot of the work myself. I am working on an electrical layout. The issue I have is how to calculate estimate how many amps a given circuit is pulling. I know that each 100W bulb pulls less than 1 amp, but how do you decide how many outlets you can daisy chain together when you are not sure how many amps are going to be going into those outlets at any give time.

My basement will have the following rooms:
1) Bathroom
2) Bedroom
3) Kitchen (with microwave, mini diswasher, a 2/3 sized fridge, and a pump to push the water into my plumbing rough in)
4) Family room
5) Theater

I only have a few circuits left in my breaker box. I might need a sub panel I guess. I figure that I will have the following needs:

1) Bathroom - 1 fan/light fixture, one light over the bathtub, and a light fixture over the mirrow, and regular outlets

2) Bedroom - 4 recessed 6" cans and regular outlets (one of which will have a 40" LCD hooked up to it)

3) Kitchen - 4 recessed 6" cans, plus wiring for the microwave, mini diswasher, mini fridge, water pump and outlets

4) Family room - 6 recessed cans and outlets

5) Theater - 4 recessed 6" cans, 11 recessed 3" cans, Receiver, DVD, computer, projector, 2 subs and outlets.

Where can I go learn the best way to wire all these up? I understand the concept of wiring and have some experience, but I want to make sure I do it right.
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post #18 of 96 Old 09-21-2009, 01:55 PM
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You're in for a lot of fun/learning on this one if you plan to layout and wire yourself, especially if you're planning on having it inspected

First off, based on the amount of rooms. electronics, appliances, etc you plan to wire for, I'd definitely suggest a subpanel. I designed for and ran 8 circuits for the 4 rooms I am in process on (overkill but would never had wanted to go with just 3). You'll need two open slots from your main panel (beside each other but straddling opposing 120V phases) so you can run 240V (2 x 120) to your subpanel via a double pole breaker. You may have to switch around some of your current breakers to accomplish that. A subpanel is cheap and will make your wiring simpler if you're breaker limited IMHO.

Power can be calculated by W(watts)= V (voltage) x I (current). Total possible power would be the addition of all of your loads (just add up the watts). Of course you won't be using everything at once, but will give you an idea on max possible. Some loads are considered "continuous" and some not. Think about what things you will be plugging into your outlets that can pull a large amount of current/watts like a treadmill, popcorn machine etc. You will need to take those into effect when planning your circuits, so you won't be popping a breaker if 2-3 of these come on at once. You can use 3W per sqft for general outlets and lighting estimate per NEC, and you may want to use 180 W per outlet/strap to figure how many you can run per circuit. It's 2400W max for 20A circuit and 1800W for 15A. That's max, and I believe you need to derate that by 20% for continuous/safe operating range. You local code may have other guidelines but you want to be safe whether your getting inspected or not.

I spent a lot of time at a couple of electrical forums (Mike Holt's for one) and also referenced the 2008 NEC code on line (PM me for a link). For the amount of time I spent on my electrical, I should have just paid a good electrician to plan a layout for me and then do the wiring myself vs. doing it all myself.
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post #19 of 96 Old 09-21-2009, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Humm....that's a really good thought. I might be able to convince someone to do the plans and then I can do all the grunt work.
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post #20 of 96 Old 09-22-2009, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Just updating my thread as I have some prices starting to come in. A friend of mine has agreed to frame the entire basement (not including sofits) and break up a 8' by 1' section of my concretre floor to run a pipe. This pipe will tie into my existing bathroom rough-in and will be the drainage supply for the kitchette sink and dishwasher. He has agreed to a price of ~2600, which includes all materials and labor. I'm thinking that's pretty good and will provide me with a framwork to work off of and keep me busy for a while.
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post #21 of 96 Old 09-22-2009, 08:25 AM
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Looks like a good price, does he work on the west shore? Send him my way when you are done.
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post #22 of 96 Old 09-22-2009, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually, he would probably do the western shore if you paid him for travel time, which might still result in a pretty big savings. My basement is 1300-1400 square feet, so its not a in insignificant amount of labor we are talking about.
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post #23 of 96 Old 09-25-2009, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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(I sent an email off to the sound proofing company, but am also posting here for alternitive points of view.)


I heard back from my HVAC guy. We came up with a plan that will hopefully be the lesser of all evils.



As you can see form this picture, there is 14" tall ductboard presently. You can see how the ductboard runs about 12" out from the edge of the R wall. Our plan is to cut the existing ductboard, replace with metal, and put in 2 elbows right above the chair in the foreground. This will joggle the new duct into the wall/ceiling corner, rather than having it run 12" out from the wall. We will use an 8" metal duct (rather than the existing 14") which will gain us some headroom back. We will then use flex duct to run R->L through the ibeam joists to place the "blowers" all the way on the L side wall. This should cut down on noise getting into the duct work.

The estimates he gave me includes placing 1" installation around the outside of the duct to muffle the noise.

1) Is that a sufficient amount of installation?
2) Does it matter with this setup, whether I place the duct "inside" or "outside" the envelope? i.e. Whether I drywall first and then bring in the duct (duct is inside the envelope) or whether I soffit around the duct and then drywall, leaving the duct outside the envelope? I'll be using whisper appropiately in either case.

Thanks.

-Adam
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post #24 of 96 Old 09-25-2009, 07:44 AM
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Ductboard is generally superior to metal ductwork for sound isolation purposes for this reason:

Quote:


Standard ductwork is metal, and therefore very conductive. Ductwork can therefore accommodate airborne sound as well as conduct vibration through the duct itself.

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...cles/flanking/

My reading comprehension skills can be limited, but it sounds like your metal duct is being fed by flex? In which case, if the metal ducts aren't touching the rest of the system, the vibration risk is relatively low.

When you mention the elbows, is that meant to give 90 degree turns? Multiple turns is often a big plus in sound isolation. The other comment is that you need to make sure the capacity is sufficient. Dennis Erskine says a sealed room should have supplies and returns supplied like it was a kitchen, and specs that the airflow should not exceed 250 FPM per diffuser. I don't know if that is a difficult standard to reach, since his builds are often high end, but the faster the air moves the more likely it is to be audible and effect your noise floor.

Finally, Bigmouth always recommends this high quality flex - I think there is one supply house in the area (enola?) that came up on their dealer locator:

Flex duct product 6B or 6M: http://www.flexmasterusa.com/pg/fdpp.php

The 1" might be ok, but you might want some rigid fiberglass on the inside of the metal duct as well. Not sure about the soffit question. Looks like either answer could work.
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post #25 of 96 Old 09-25-2009, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelfling View Post

2) Does it matter with this setup, whether I place the duct "inside" or "outside" the envelope? i.e. Whether I drywall first and then bring in the duct (duct is inside the envelope) or whether I soffit around the duct and then drywall, leaving the duct outside the envelope? I'll be using whisper appropiately in either case.

Adam,
I'd suspect that from a sound isolation perspective that drywalling first and bringing the duct "inside the envelope" would be best, due to the fact that you would have that extra drywall (DD?) along the joists above the duct and the section of the wall to the right of where the duct is. Not sure whether it's worth it or not though as it seems to be a bit more work to me than the alternate. I chose on my build to leave the duct outside the room and soffit around it, running ceiling drywall up to it. Either way you go, you should probably run a separate piece of hatchannel for where your soffit connects to the ceiling for the extra weight of the soffit. I ran one with clips every other joist (32" OC) to be safe, then another one about 3" away from that for the DD support.

Maybe Ted or someone will chime in for additional opinion.
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post #26 of 96 Old 09-28-2009, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay. I'm just plain giddy. I talked to Ted White today and he explained why the HVAC design by my HVAC guy was not satisfactory. So I sat down there for ~90 min starting at the walls and the ceiling...waiting for lightning to strike. I've always said that thinking outside the box will solve most problems. Well, I came up with an HVAC solution that I have never seen posted here, and am doing sketeches of it now. I have never seen HVAC done in this way before, so I will either endup becoming famous or there is a really BIG hole in my logic. Pics to come!!!!
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post #27 of 96 Old 09-28-2009, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is the plan. The plain gray is false sofit. The striped gray is HVAC. The striped gray is outside the DD+GG envelope. This is a basement in the NE (delaware) so cooling is a minor issue vs keeping it warm in the winter.

The hot air comes in through the duct. At the column on the L (picture left) there are two "exits" from the duct, one straight up and one straight down. Both emply into flexduct. The down exit goes into flexdict encased in insulation, encased in a column made of double plywood + GG. At the bottom of the column is an exit to under the stage. The flex continues in a serpentine path to the floor mounted exit.

There is another line that runs in the joist space. This will be outside the DD+GG envelope. It pierces that envelope on the R side into the "false soffit" and follow a similiar path as on the L.

I will add 2 more colums for returns and use a similiar technique for those once I figure out where to place those columns.

I think this just might work. Any sound bleed into the vent will just go into the area under the stage where it can't do damage!
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post #28 of 96 Old 09-28-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelfling View Post

There is another line that runs in the joist space. This will be outside the DD+GG envelope. It pierces that envelope on the R side into the "false soffit" and follow a similiar path as on the L.

Why, and how will your joist space run be outside the envelope?

I don't see a problem with your design, although, HVAC guys may be concerned about the length of the runs.
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post #29 of 96 Old 09-29-2009, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

Why, and how will your joist space run be outside the envelope?

I don't see a problem with your design, although, HVAC guys may be concerned about the length of the runs.

Since the HVAC run will be "boxed out" in s sofit before the drywall goes up, it will be outside of the envelope. The take off from the HVAC main run will be up out of the main run into the joice space (also outside the envelope) and will then run acorss the joice and finally punch through the envelope after turning downward on the other side of the room.

On a side note, I thought on this overnight and figured out that a better design is to have the verticle runs of flexpipe in the rack closet. I will basically just shift the columns that house the flexpipe into the rack room, thereby keeping my walls flat (ie no columns). I was worred that my dipole surrounds would not play nicely with columns.
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post #30 of 96 Old 09-29-2009, 07:11 AM
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Oh ok that makes sense.
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