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post #271 of 340 Old 12-03-2014, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
A 1000x this. I have tried many Audyssey based SSPs and they always sound good to VERY good with movies but I continually go back to my Anthem Statement D2V simply because they never deliver the same sonics that the Anthem does. I try my hardest to get them there (pro calibrations, endless tweaking, etc) but no luck. I tried the 8801 last year and while it was fantastic for the price, it was missing something on the bottom end during movies and dynamics never seemed the same. I recently tried the XMC-1 with the same results. With some clips that I use all the time for comparisons and demos it just fell short in terms of dynamics, presence and low end finesse. I would love to find a suitable replacement for the D2V given some of the more modern options out there that would make life a bit easier (HDMI switching, other new features) but I just can't find anything that sounds as good with EVERYTHING I listen to. I'm looking forward to trying the 8802 early next year and I'm hoping we'll see more pre-pros come out as the year progresses.
Kris:

My bet is, and you probably already really know this, that the 8802 will be more of the same. I think your issue is mostly Audyssey and not the platform on which it runs.

Since you have industry connections, why don't you get ahold of THIS. . The miniDSP has Dirac up to 8 channels (7.1) so you might, in addition, to have 7.x have to get a different product to integrate all of your subs (minDSP makes one of those as well). Then use the crossover points, trims and distances of your current SSP, turn off Audyssey and use the Dirac from the nanoAVR.

I'm not suggesting this necessarily as a long term solution but it will help you determine now much of what you don't like belongs to Audyssey and what belongs to the hardware.

Chuck

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post #272 of 340 Old 12-03-2014, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
A 1000x this. I have tried many Audyssey based SSPs and they always sound good to VERY good with movies but I continually go back to my Anthem Statement D2V simply because they never deliver the same sonics that the Anthem does. I try my hardest to get them there (pro calibrations, endless tweaking, etc) but no luck. I tried the 8801 last year and while it was fantastic for the price, it was missing something on the bottom end during movies and dynamics never seemed the same.
Maybe I will not try to force the issue any further, perhaps patch in my Rane EQ to the subs to tweak them and call it a day.

Quote:
I recently tried the XMC-1 with the same results. With some clips that I use all the time for comparisons and demos it just fell short in terms of dynamics, presence and low end finesse.
The great value of XT32 (or ARC) is that it gets you there fast (wherever "there" is, which might be 90% of the way for XT32). That's nothing to sneeze at, and I take my hat off to Audyssey for making XT32 work as well as it does.

In contrast, it took me months of effort with the PEQ to get my system where I wanted it (well, within reason ). The REW measurements did not translate. Even with the BassQ, I measured amazingly smooth bass, and could tweak the curve afterward with PEQ, but it never had the punch I got after removing it.

I suspect that if you (or you can get Mark Seaton to make a return visit ) spent a day or two, followed up with weeks of listening and fine tuning, you could get remarkable performance from the XMC-1's PEQ. Or maybe run ARCOS, as that outputs PEQ corrections.

One idea would be to use REW to measure the electrical response of the D2V in each channel. Then smooth it with 1/3 octave, and model the XMC's PEQs to fit. I did that here based on the Dirac measurements and it worked very well, even with only 5 bands per channel. I did not have my 4 subs at that time, however, so that's been an ongoing challenge.

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #273 of 340 Old 12-03-2014, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Kris:

My bet is, and you probably already really know this, that the 8802 will be more of the same. I think your issue is mostly Audyssey and not the platform on which it runs.

Since you have industry connections, why don't you get ahold of THIS. . The miniDSP has Dirac up to 8 channels (7.1) so you might, in addition, to have 7.x have to get a different product to integrate all of your subs (minDSP makes one of those as well). Then use the crossover points, trims and distances of your current SSP, turn off Audyssey and use the Dirac from the nanoAVR.

I'm not suggesting this necessarily as a long term solution but it will help you determine now much of what you don't like belongs to Audyssey and what belongs to the hardware.

Chuck
One of the issues with the nanoAVR is that it requires a PCM feed from the BD player, so Atmos is out of the window if the nano is in the chain.

I still toy with trying it though, mostly for Dirac. It couldn't be a long-term solution for me because I am committed to Atmos as you know, but it may be worthwhile just for evaluation of Dirac vs XT32.
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post #274 of 340 Old 12-03-2014, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
One of the issues with the nanoAVR is that it requires a PCM feed from the BD player, so Atmos is out of the window if the nano is in the chain.

I still toy with trying it though, mostly for Dirac. It couldn't be a long-term solution for me because I am committed to Atmos as you know, but it may be worthwhile just for evaluation of Dirac vs XT32.
That's why I was suggesting he try the nanoAVR to determine if Audyssey is the issue. If using Dirac on the same platform does not get him any closer, then there are other "issues" at work. It can't correct 13 channels either (7.2.4) but he could run 7.x and compare. It certainly is not a solution for someone serious about Atmos and more than 8 channels.

I would love to see 1/12th octave FR + sub of the left channel and center channel + sub of both Kris's system and Roger's. I am really curious as to what might be going on.

While I would be the first to agree that Audyssey is not the end all/be all of room correction products, I suffer none of what Roger described. I have slam and impact out the wazoo!!

As I have noted before: if someone comes to the party with a $5k to $7.5K SSP running Dirac, and 9.2.4 Atmos, AND the philosophy of bass management for subs as currently used by Audyssey, I'm all over it. If Emotiva could get out of their own way, they could end up with such a product in early 2037!!

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post #275 of 340 Old 12-04-2014, 01:49 PM
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I'm thinking of trying the multichannel version of Dirac Live running on my PC using the JRiver JRSS upmixer for conversion of 2-channel to 7.1 channel. Dirac running on the PC is not limited to 48 kHz, but goes up to 192 kHz. I have most of my 2-channel audio stored on the PC, and JRiver Media Center is a good way to listen, I've found.

I'm not sure whether I'd rely on JRiver to set crossovers and delays, or leave that to the processor. There are pluses and minuses to both approaches.

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post #276 of 340 Old 12-05-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Kris:

My bet is, and you probably already really know this, that the 8802 will be more of the same. I think your issue is mostly Audyssey and not the platform on which it runs.

Since you have industry connections, why don't you get ahold of THIS. . The miniDSP has Dirac up to 8 channels (7.1) so you might, in addition, to have 7.x have to get a different product to integrate all of your subs (minDSP makes one of those as well). Then use the crossover points, trims and distances of your current SSP, turn off Audyssey and use the Dirac from the nanoAVR.

I'm not suggesting this necessarily as a long term solution but it will help you determine now much of what you don't like belongs to Audyssey and what belongs to the hardware.

Chuck
Went ahead and ordered one to try out. Probably won't get around to installing until sometime in January given my current schedule but looking forward to seeing how it works out.

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post #277 of 340 Old 12-25-2014, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Processor A/B/C switchers

I do a fair bit of AV processor evaluation, and it's always been a drag moving connections, or trying to feed the same signal to a couple of units. And how to keep the main system in place for reference?

For the source side I bought a 5-input HDMI switchbox, and I feed it to an active HDMI splitter. Now I can easily send any of my HDMI sources (DirecTV, Oppo BDP-93, Sony BDP-S3200, AppleTV) to two processors in parallel. The 5th slot will be used for a media PC -- mainly for collecting all my test signals.

The Sony BD player handles Atmos bitstreams better than the Oppo, but the Oppo handles DVD-A and SACD.




On the output side, I has always wondered of these el-cheapo DB-25 "data" switchboxes would work for audio, and they do. I found some DB-25 to XLR cables from Seismic Audio, and they handle 8 channels each. I'm using one box for the 7 main channels and the other box handles 4 heights and 2 subs.



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Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #278 of 340 Old 12-27-2014, 06:36 AM
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1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If only that were that case, then I could do something to make them sound better.
2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I was able to somewhat address the bass by adding 9 dB to the front subs. It's not an optimal solution as the response is not as smooth is it should be. Yes, if I apply too much rolloff Audyssey may just give up trying to correct. Plus it will be an arduous task to try a curve, then take readings to see what happened. Rinse, repeat.
I checked the subwoofer timing/blend at crossover and it was already working correctly.
Where I would try the "trick the target curve" idea would be not just the <80 Hz range but the midbass <300 Hz where lower register vocals are lumpy at certain notes. Still sounds colored and "uncorrected" in that area.

Hi Roger,


In 1) above - is there any word yet if the DTS-UHD speaker positions will be compatible with the Atmos ones? It will be quite a hassle if they are different & the DTS-UHD will require front wall/ceiling placements & Atmos placed as you have them


In 2) above - as I will be building a new HT addition this spring & will be having 2 matched subs (Paradigm Servo 15's) I assume that it would be prudent for me to get an equalizer such as the YDP2006 to be able to properly tweak the subs, as in the past Yamaha AVRs (such as my RX-Z11) are not known for having much other than a very basic ability to tweak the LFE channel(s)


As I cannot insert links in text?? YDP2006 link= http://usa.yamaha.com/products/live_...ssors/ydp2006/

------------------------
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post #279 of 340 Old 12-27-2014, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougofthenorth View Post
In 1) above - is there any word yet if the DTS-UHD speaker positions will be compatible with the Atmos ones? It will be quite a hassle if they are different & the DTS-UHD will require front wall/ceiling placements & Atmos placed as you have them
I have heard nothing suggesting a conflict with the Dolby speaker positions. I can assure you my speakers will not be moving.

Quote:
In 2) above - as I will be building a new HT addition this spring & will be having 2 matched subs (Paradigm Servo 15's) I assume that it would be prudent for me to get an equalizer such as the YDP2006 to be able to properly tweak the subs, as in the past Yamaha AVRs (such as my RX-Z11) are not known for having much other than a very basic ability to tweak the LFE channel(s)
Looks like a very capable EQ. If you are going to put the subs at the sides of the room, might not need the delays, and could EQ them both with the same curve. If you put the subs front/rear as I do, the delay offset is useful, but you could still get by with the same EQ curve feeding both.

You can wait until the subs are installed and operating to decide any further tuning plans.
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Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #280 of 340 Old 12-27-2014, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
On the output side, I has always wondered of these el-cheapo DB-25 "data" switchboxes would work for audio, and they do.
Darn... I think I threw mine out a few years back...

Under construction: the Larch theater
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post #281 of 340 Old 12-27-2014, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The Sony BD player handles Atmos bitstreams better than the Oppo, but the Oppo handles DVD-A and SACD.
Time to upgrade to a 103/103D. No buggy MediaTek chipset in there.

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post #282 of 340 Old 12-27-2014, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Time to upgrade to a 103/103D. No buggy MediaTek chipset in there.
The Sony was only $70. And it reads out audio bitrate separate from the video. I want to see how much Atmos uses.

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #283 of 340 Old 01-04-2015, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I have heard nothing suggesting a conflict with the Dolby speaker positions. I can assure you my speakers will not be moving.

Looks like a very capable EQ. If you are going to put the subs at the sides of the room, might not need the delays, and could EQ them both with the same curve. If you put the subs front/rear as I do, the delay offset is useful, but you could still get by with the same EQ curve feeding both.

You can wait until the subs are installed and operating to decide any further tuning plans.

Roger,
Once again thanks for the reply!


Then I will wait until the room is built & my equipment is setup, then see what I need after that point.


Sorry, I forgot to mention how great your theater looks!
I sure wish I had your carpentry (& audio) skill sets.


DTS speaker placements should be known by end of March according to http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...eer-more/20275
Which gives me plenty of time, as the frost won't be out of the ground until April, when I will start the build.


Now, in the meantime, if I could only find suitable & properly adjustable quality speaker brackets and hopefully a Canadian source for them. (speakers are ~22lb @)
(an 86 cent dollar sure doesn't help much either)

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post #284 of 340 Old 01-04-2015, 01:42 PM
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Congrats on HTOM, Roger! Well-deserved!
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post #285 of 340 Old 01-04-2015, 06:44 PM
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Congrats on HTOM, Roger! Well-deserved!

+1


Really? Great.......and so deserving with how much Roger contributes to others!

Congrats Roger!
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post #286 of 340 Old 01-04-2015, 09:49 PM
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Roger,
What a wonderful example of a well thought out home theater; clean, distinctive, welcoming. A feast for the eyes to drink in.
Thank You for sharing it with all of us. It gives me that extra push I need to re-attack my home theater.
From reading all the prior postings,although probably too fast, I am wondering how much sound is transferred to the downstairs.
I too, have my home theater on the second floor of my home and am struggling with that very issue. In particular, my dual subs.
Do you have that issue with your four subwoofers?
Also, I really like the bracket system you used to mount your surround and height speakers. Are they commercially available?
Thank You again for sharing your project with us.
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post #287 of 340 Old 01-05-2015, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwho51 View Post
Roger,
What a wonderful example of a well thought out home theater; clean, distinctive, welcoming. A feast for the eyes to drink in.
Thank You for sharing it with all of us. It gives me that extra push I need to re-attack my home theater.


Quote:
From reading all the prior postings,although probably too fast, I am wondering how much sound is transferred to the downstairs.
I too, have my home theater on the second floor of my home and am struggling with that very issue. In particular, my dual subs.
Do you have that issue with your four subwoofers?
Today I did a little experiment. Played the LFE noise track on a test disc, then went downstairs and started turning up the volume (the Marantz has a wifi control app) until I could hear it, then measure it at 60 dB SPL on the RS meter. Went back into the room, an the level was 100 dB. So that's 40 dB reduction into the kitchen below. It was 8 dB hotter in the guest bath which sits squarely beneath the riser/rear subs, so 32 dB attenuation in there. I would have liked more.

Quote:
Also, I really like the bracket system you used to mount your surround and height speakers. Are they commercially available?
The ceiling speakers (Tannoy Di 6DC) came with the U brackets, and have threaded inserts in the sides for them. That was part of their appeal for me.
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Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #288 of 340 Old 01-06-2015, 11:45 AM
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Woot!

HT of the Month: Deadwood Cinema
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My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz ***FOR SALE***

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post #289 of 340 Old 01-10-2015, 07:41 PM
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Acoustic treatment
  • 4.5” diffusors on side-surround walls (Model C, AcousticsFirst)
How's the paint holding up on those diffusors? I've had trouble getting paint to stick to Thermoplastic, maybe I didn't prep the plastic right but I was afraid to mess with them too much. My solution was to cover them with grill cloth but I think these look cool.

Thanks for sharing your theater with all of us!

Cheers,
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post #290 of 340 Old 01-10-2015, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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How's the paint holding up on those diffusors? I've had trouble getting paint to stick to Thermoplastic, maybe I didn't prep the plastic right but I was afraid to mess with them too much. My solution was to cover them with grill cloth but I think these look cool.
I had them spray painted with the same latex wall paint used elsewhere in the room. These are not the "fire rated" styrene, which is the only version they offer now. Not sure if that matters. So far, none of the paint has chipped or fallen off.
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Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #291 of 340 Old 01-12-2015, 08:33 AM
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Roger, PM sent
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post #292 of 340 Old 02-01-2015, 08:14 AM
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Fantastic setup Roger! Couple of questions if you don't mind. How's the Atmos imaging on the back row of seats? I have a deeper room and trying to determine the optimum location for my overhead speakers at this point in my setup. Also, I have a 7702 that I have yet to install and would like your impression as well?

Thanks! BD
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post #293 of 340 Old 04-25-2015, 08:51 PM
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Just got back from visiting Roger' room...............three hour drive each way!

Rain, sleet, nor snow could keep me from experiencing this treat!

Thank you Roger for hosting me this afternoon..................................thoroug hly enjoyed myself and am confident moving forward with my room!
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post #294 of 340 Old 06-22-2015, 12:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Deadwood is, well, dead. For now. It is being relocated to a new house, which just broke ground. It will be 6 months before I can even start the theater build, so in the meantime I will be planning what to do. The outdoor picture shows the stakes outlining the room. Minutes later, there was a hole there for the foundation.




The room will be a bit larger than the current one in every dimension (19x17x10 LWD, vs. 17x11.5x8), and it will have an equipment room behind so the PJ and heat/noise generators can be outside the room. The builder agreed to remove all the windows (there's a dummy window in a false wall in front to make it look nice from the street), and to build the walls with staggered studs to improve the STC. Also, no one downstairs this time -- it's a 1-story house.



Stay tuned.
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Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs

Last edited by Roger Dressler; 06-22-2015 at 01:02 AM.
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post #295 of 340 Old 06-22-2015, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Stay tuned.
You bet!
No 3D skecthes yet?
Will you be using the same gear and treatment?
Good luck with the project!

Probably the smallest 5.2.4 in the world!
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post #296 of 340 Old 06-22-2015, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
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To commission the room I will start with the current SSP-800 driving my L/C/R Aerials and I'll use the 4 Tannoy's as temporary surrounds, plus the 4x HSU subs. From that 7.1 system I will be able to learn a lot about the room and start the treatment plan.

Everything else will be different -- a 4k PJ, some of immersive processor (the 7702 is gone), maybe add "theater-like" speakers behind the screen, thinking of IB subs, new diffusers. Should be fun.

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #297 of 340 Old 06-22-2015, 03:13 AM
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Ah! A build!

Q1: 10' Height (3m00) is nice, but would 12' be out the question?

Q2: which material for the construction, wood frame or bricks?

There's no substitute for cubic inches.

The more you know, the less you know that you know.
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post #298 of 340 Old 06-22-2015, 06:27 AM
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Congrats Roger! Looking forward to seeing/hearing final results!

Keep me in mind if you need some help..............25 mile drive is not so bad.
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post #299 of 340 Old 06-22-2015, 08:44 AM
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Where is the new house?
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post #300 of 340 Old 06-22-2015, 09:31 AM
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Congrats @Roger Dressler !

Lookin' good, buddy. Good luck with the build and I know you can't wait to get into your new house. Just got to bide your time until it's done. I like the sketch of the room. You'll really like the wider room. Nice placement of speakers too but it sure looks like the back row will get a lot of rear surround. Oh well.

Hmm.. I see you have '60cuft' in the two front corners. Can I convince you to load up that space with eight 18's per side?

Good luck with the build and hope you got the HVAC air exchange thing figured out.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz ***FOR SALE***

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