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post #121 of 143 Old 06-17-2014, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi David,

Thanks. I started with one good sub, but it was not a matter of that sub's quality in my modal hell of a listening room. So I had to go for multiple units.

I have disconnected the BassQ from the system, now treating the front pair as one sub, and the rear pair as another, with their own EQ and delay. I get better impact and headroom than before, and still have good uniformity across the seats.
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post #122 of 143 Old 07-22-2014, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Added into to Post #6 to show renderings for the Atmos update. I'll go for the first processor I can get, the Marantz AV7702, and feed the base 7.1 through the SSP-800 bypass. I'm not sure I will be keep the Marantz long term as I am not confident the XT32 will meet my taste in spectral balance.

Will also swap out the Classe CA201 stereo amp for an Outlaw 7700 (7-ch x 200W).

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post #123 of 143 Old 07-22-2014, 10:22 PM
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Will be interested on how Marantz works for you.........

You're definitely ahead of curve compared to rest of us on Atmos implementation. I begin framing ceiling cloud tomorrow......hope it's big enough for proper ceiling speaker placement.
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post #124 of 143 Old 07-23-2014, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Elill View Post
Hi Roger, interesting. I am planning something similar (albeit a long way off actually implementing):

Looking at your Post #6 , you (we) don't really have room for front heights? have you thought about it?
I have two choices for front height speakers: 30 deg elevation (more toward the front of the room), or 40 deg. I went with the 40 deg as that seems most in keeping with the Atmos zone of 30-55 deg. That location would work equally well for PLIIz, but I do not have that mode available.

The rear speakers are elevated 130 deg (the zone said to be 125-150 deg), which, at 10 deg higher angle if incidence than the fronts, may seem steep but it is just 30 deg above the surround "plane" which is elevated 20 deg for all 4 surround speakers. I think a 30 deg offset is necessary to really distinguish the heights from the surrounds.

Your front heights are clocking in at ~52 deg elevation, which s the top end of the recommended range. And the rears at 115. I think these will work fine for all concerned.

In that speaker model, is that horn for the tweeter?

I realize it is too late to worry about it, but even though the venerable Erskine group defined it, I feel the surrounds should be more forward, for better envelopment for the front row (MLP is there, right?), and it will not harm the rear effect at all. See diagram.
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File Type: jpg 140226ErskineRightWall moved surround.jpg (209.7 KB, 19 views)
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post #125 of 143 Old 07-23-2014, 06:07 PM
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Hi Roger,

Finished up framing base for ceiling cloud today..........if you could check out since I've posted pics........could you check and see if I'm going to have any major issues? I used and checked your suggestion for angles.......pointing laser sure helped.

Similar to you, I'm more concerned with MLP and constructed ceiling cloud as such. Do plan to give you a buzz in next day or so as things settle/slow down.
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post #126 of 143 Old 07-24-2014, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I have two choices for front height speakers: 30 deg elevation (more toward the front of the room), or 40 deg. I went with the 40 deg as that seems most in keeping with the Atmos zone of 30-55 deg. That location would work equally well for PLIIz, but I do not have that mode available.

The rear speakers are elevated 130 deg (the zone said to be 125-150 deg), which, at 10 deg higher angle if incidence than the fronts, may seem steep but it is just 30 deg above the surround "plane" which is elevated 20 deg for all 4 surround speakers. I think a 30 deg offset is necessary to really distinguish the heights from the surrounds.

Your front heights are clocking in at ~52 deg elevation, which s the top end of the recommended range. And the rears at 115. I think these will work fine for all concerned.

In that speaker model, is that horn for the tweeter?

I realize it is too late to worry about it, but even though the venerable Erskine group defined it, I feel the surrounds should be more forward, for better envelopment for the front row (MLP is there, right?), and it will not harm the rear effect at all. See diagram.
Interesting "correction" (suggestion) about the side surround placement.

Would you move the surround to directly along the front (main) listening row if it was a 5.1 setup, as well? (I think it is a 7.1 system now.)


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post #127 of 143 Old 07-24-2014, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Interesting "correction" (suggestion) about the side surround placement.

Would you move the surround to directly along the front (main) listening row if it was a 5.1 setup, as well? (I think it is a 7.1 system now.)
No. The 110 deg rears for a 5.1 system try to wear conflicting hats, surround envelopment and rearward cues. The beauty of 7.1 is that each goal is addressed by a separate pair of speakers.

The 90 deg surround positions are tried and true, and universally agreed by Dolby, DTS, THX, among others. Back in the day when I helped devise the "Dolby wedges" diagram, we did not exclude 110 deg from the surround positions because many adopters of 7.1 were adding on to 5.1 systems. No need to tear the surrounds out of a wall just to gain benefits from the rears. But for a new build, the 90 deg location is preferable.

And as Toole and others have noted, it may be advantageous to go slightly forward, ~80 deg. The effect is easily verifiable in any 7.1 system. Move to the rear seats and listen to the surround effect. The immersive envelopment is undeniable.
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post #128 of 143 Old 07-24-2014, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
No. The 110 deg rears for a 5.1 system try to wear conflicting hats, surround envelopment and rearward cues. The beauty of 7.1 is that each goal is addressed by a separate pair of speakers.

The 90 deg surround positions are tried and true, and universally agreed by Dolby, DTS, THX, among others. Back in the day when I helped devise the "Dolby wedges" diagram, we did not exclude 110 deg from the surround positions because many adopters of 7.1 were adding on to 5.1 systems. No need to tear the surrounds out of a wall just to gain benefits from the rears. But for a new build, the 90 deg location is preferable.

And as Toole and others have noted, it may be advantageous to go slightly forward, ~80 deg. The effect is easily verifiable in any 7.1 system. Move to the rear seats and listen to the surround effect. The immersive envelopment is undeniable.
Thanks. And would I be right to guess that in a 6.1 system, 90 degree position for the side surround would be the ideal spot, as well?


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post #129 of 143 Old 07-24-2014, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. And would I be right to guess that in a 6.1 system, 90 degree position for the side surround would be the ideal spot, as well?
Technically, yes, but also note that the center-back channel should be presented on 2 speakers (never on one), so why not drive them as 7.1?
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post #130 of 143 Old 07-24-2014, 05:29 PM
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Technically, yes, but also note that the center-back channel should be presented on 2 speakers (never on one), so why not drive them as 7.1?
Fair question. I've got a small room (12x17) and the second row is against the back wall (non critical listeners). My side surrounds are OnWall Triad Silver Surrounds. Placing a single surround back seemed like a way to get most of the benefit and perhaps fit best in my space, and save on budget....

...though frankly I didn't consider it seriously until reading:

"I would strongly consider installing a 6.1 system over a 7.1 to reduce cost and improve performance for most situations." at http://www.homecinemaguru.com/how-ma...-your-theater/


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post #131 of 143 Old 07-24-2014, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Fair question. I've got a small room (12x17) and the second row is against the back wall (non critical listeners). My side surrounds are OnWall Triad Silver Surrounds. Placing a single surround back seemed like a way to get most of the benefit and perhaps fit best in my space, and save on budget...
My room is 11.5' x 17'. The rears are in the back corners, and that's probably a better place for them even with the rear seats against the wall. But you do not want/need dipoles in those locations, or even bipoles. Get the inwall corner units. Tailor made for your situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
...though frankly I didn't consider it seriously until reading:

"I would strongly consider installing a 6.1 system over a 7.1 to reduce cost and improve performance for most situations." at http://www.homecinemaguru.com/how-ma...-your-theater/
He also says: >>Positioning of surround speakers is as important as the number used. A 7.1 surround system or a 6.1 surround system requires 3 ft or more spacing from the rear seat head position and the back surround speakers to make all of the surround speakers sound relatively uniform between the two rows.<<
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post #132 of 143 Old 07-24-2014, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
My room is 11.5' x 17'. The rears are in the back corners, and that's probably a better place for them even with the rear seats against the wall. But you do not want/need dipoles in those locations, or even bipoles. Get the inwall corner units. Tailor made for your situation.
That's an interesting idea.

This helps make the rear row less compromised for sure.

I do have a couple of kinks: 1) My side surround are tough to place right at 90degrees since I stupidly built a DOOR at the 90degree point. Yes, I was not thinking.... 2) If I do surround backs, then maybe using dipoles on the sides is no longer ideal (easier to fix than the door location).

That door has been bothering me there forever -- and the fact that it opens inward. I should have put the door in the "dead space" between screen and front row. No limitations (other than inexperience) led to its current position.

Quote:

He also says: >>Positioning of surround speakers is as important as the number used. A 7.1 surround system or a 6.1 surround system requires 3 ft or more spacing from the rear seat head position and the back surround speakers to make all of the surround speakers sound relatively uniform between the two rows.<<
Yeah, if I don't go with corner placement for the back speakers, the rear row is significantly compromised. I'd rather not do that, though it's not a complete deal breaker.....



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post #133 of 143 Old 07-24-2014, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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^^ If you create a thread with your theater floorplan diagram and pix, it would be much easier to discuss the door and other issues. Or maybe you have one already. Just give me the link.
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post #134 of 143 Old 07-24-2014, 09:31 PM
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My build thread is a nightmare! Nathan's Theater in Search of...

But I will post a photo there at the end of the thread, so as not to clutter this thread
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post #135 of 143 Old 07-25-2014, 04:04 AM
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Roger, just checking out those Tannoy's. On paper they're a great little speaker, the 8" version moreso.

If you had your time again would you have them all round instead of your B&W's?

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post #136 of 143 Old 07-25-2014, 04:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Roger, just checking out those Tannoy's. On paper they're a great little speaker, the 8" version moreso.

If you had your time again would you have them all round instead of your B&W's?
Most definitely. They make some in-wall versions that would have dropped right in. I am expecting the order to arrive in a matter of days, so I will hook up a pair to see what they sound like.
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post #137 of 143 Old 07-25-2014, 04:50 AM
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Great, looking forward to hearing your thoughts....don't have local pricing, but in the US they're a bargain. It'd save me all manner of grief just getting 10 of these (6 on wall and 4 overhead)

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post #138 of 143 Old 07-25-2014, 05:55 AM
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Most definitely. They make some in-wall versions that would have dropped right in. I am expecting the order to arrive in a matter of days, so I will hook up a pair to see what they sound like.
Can't wait until you've dialed in Tannoy's and express your opinions........
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post #139 of 143 Old 07-25-2014, 09:35 AM
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My room is 11.5' x 17'. The rears are in the back corners, and that's probably a better place for them even with the rear seats against the wall. But you do not want/need dipoles in those locations, or even bipoles. Get the inwall corner units. Tailor made for your situation.
After a little research I was convinced this could be a good test (trying rears in the corners) and upon more measuring/looking (in my build thread), I realized I could move the sides to ALMOST 90 degrees....

.....but I try to experiment by buying used gear and I figured it would be many months before this "obscure" Triad model popped up on the used market....

....and then a pair of these corner Triads showed up on Augiogon (maybe you have friend in Lake Oswego who needed a quick sale?) at half retail so I said "what the heck, it's worth an experiment, and at that price I can resell for a modest loss if it doesn't work well...".

So in a few weeks, we'll see! Thanks for the idea.


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post #140 of 143 Old 07-25-2014, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Can't wait until you've dialed in Tannoy's and express your opinions........
UPS claims "out for delivery" so should be here today. Too bad I am also out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
After a little research I was convinced this could be a good test (trying rears in the corners) and upon more measuring/looking (in my build thread), I realized I could move the sides to ALMOST 90 degrees....

....and then a pair of these corner Triads showed up on Augiogon (maybe you have friend in Lake Oswego who needed a quick sale?) at half retail so I said "what the heck, it's worth an experiment, and at that price I can resell for a modest loss if it doesn't work well...".

So in a few weeks, we'll see! Thanks for the idea.
Great stuff on the 90-deg sides. And on the Triads, the universe is telling you something!
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post #141 of 143 Old Yesterday, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Great, looking forward to hearing your thoughts....don't have local pricing, but in the US they're a bargain. It'd save me all manner of grief just getting 10 of these (6 on wall and 4 overhead)
I received the 4 Tannoys today. Plopped a pair up front and moved the speaker wires from the Aerials. Turned off the EQ. They really do sound nice. Very smooth all through the midrange and tweeter. Sitting atop the subs there was a mild bloom to the bass in low female register, and I expect something like that when affixed near the ceiling. But EQ will cancel that.

The molded cabinet is flat black texture, virtually the same appearance as the Aerial CC3B (center) black paint. Looks very nice, and with zero shiny logos or trim, they ought to fairly disappear against the black ceiling.

Where's the damn ladder...
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post #142 of 143 Old Today, 01:21 AM
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Good to hear!

I am struggling to find a local supplier and I suspect if the normal story holds true, they'll be twice the price here (literally). You did get me thinking though. If I can't get the Tannoy's I did find these from JBL

Either which way, thanks for the advice. More cable is on route before I sheet up the room.

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post #143 of 143 Old Today, 02:18 AM
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love the diffuser wall treatments
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