Deadwood Theater Comes Alive - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Neo:X and DSU [...] Neither works for me for 2-ch music.
Maybe because your side/back surrounds are mounted too high

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post #242 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 04:15 AM
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Thanks.
You’re welcome.

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What bothers me that Roger finds the LF sound better with his SSP-800.
Yes, but that is one data point from a self-confessed basshead. Roger has expressed his preference for the bass from his SSP-800 and while I would never challenge him on that, we have to remember that it is (so far) a subjective view. If, for example, I say I prefer the bass from my dual Submersives to the bass my friend gets from his dual Fathom f212 subs, that isn't to say there is something 'wrong' with the Fathoms (far from it!) - it is just me expressing my preference. I have huge respect for Roger's views and am eagerly awaiting his measurements so we can see exactly what seems to be going on.

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Here we have Audyssey setting up the levels, distances and EQ for both subs but yet the results were not satisfactory.
Yet they are very satisfactory for many, including me. That is not to say that one cannot improve the results - I have done that myself by measuring and adjusting the sub delays to improve the splice and by adding a couple of PEQ filters to an area of the FR where Audyssey seemed to be struggling a little. I don't think Roger is saying the results were poor - just that he feels he can improve on them.

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Roger, did you manually EQ the LF curve on your SSP-800 and can this be done with the Audyssey too?
Audyssey XT32 permits no adjustment of the target curve. I am intrigued by Roger's idea of adding EQ to the input (mic) rather than the output and hoping he will share this with us soon.

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I'm curious whether to purchase the Audyssey capable AVR since some subs have their own EQ options.
They do, but then you will also need measuring equipment like REW in order to integrate them with the mains, and of course, you won’t have the benefit of XT32 for the upper frequencies. Many people use their sub EQ in conjunction with Audyssey, and there is a section in the Audyssey FAQ devoted to that, using the SMS-1 as an example of how to proceed.

f)9. What's the best way to set up Audyssey when also using Velodyne's SMS-1 room EQ system?
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post #243 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 04:58 AM
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Yes, I agree, many things are subjective. It's just that Roger's description of the differences make you want to spend 5-times more for a better AVR.
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post #244 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 05:13 AM
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Yes, I agree, many things are subjective. It's just that Roger's description of the differences make you want to spend 5-times more for a better AVR.
And even then there is no guarantee that you would hear the same thing as he is hearing. Speakers, subs, placement and room treatments are all far more important than the choice of AVR, so if you want to spend some serious money in pursuit of better sound, they would be the things to address first. Spend your money where it will make the biggest difference, not the smallest difference. (Roger has already done this, so, for him and his room, focusing more on the AVR is a different issue.)

As revered and respected as Roger is, I don't think you should take one data point as the guiding principle for the design of your whole setup, and I am sure Roger would agree with that.
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post #245 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701
I don't think you should take one data point as the guiding principle for the design of your whole setup, and I am sure Roger would agree with that.
Don't worry, I'm not.
I was just surprised by his findings.
If there is any area where price does not necessarily mean the quality - that's hi-fi.
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post #246 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 06:00 AM
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If there is any area where price does not necessarily mean the quality - that's hi-fi.
A lesson still to be learned by many, many people, judging by so many posts on AVS.
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post #247 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I plotted the frequency response of the XT32 filters. The subwoofer channel has a sharp corner at 32 Hz, and is down 10 dB by 15 Hz . In the SSP the EQ does not apply any LF rolloff. I'm going to try a different way to run the subs in the next Audyssey cal and see if I can mitigate that rolloff.

Yes, I set up EQ for the sub in the SSP-800. It does not look like what Audyssey did. The other channels at least bear some resemblance.

There is no manual EQ to add on top of the Audyssey curve inside the AV7702. But yes external EQ can be added after the fact. My subs have no such EQ, though.
Roger:

I have not experience Audyssey messing up anything above 20hz so I can't explain the dip at 32HZ you are seeing.


While one could consider it a weakness (I do), Audyssey never looks at the splice between the subs/mains. While a few have seen exceptions in the most recent 5200/7702 versions of Audyssey, I have not. That is there are two examples where Audyssey got it right but I was not one of them. The audible difference between the distances that Audyssey sets and those that allow it to sound correct are usually several feet. The bass lacked weight and impact until I adjusted the distance. It's an interative process. And if you are really anal (or just bored) you can adjust them individually instead o moving them both the same amount.

Start off by adding a few feet to both subs and re-plot REW and see if it gets worse or better and then move the distances accordingly.

Here is a previous example of what Audyssey set for the distance and the correction I made.

Scale is 2db per ---


I noted this before but let Audyssey do it's EQ on the lowest crossover point it suggests, even if you know it's wrong. Then, after it's done its thing, move it up (again using REW to find the best spot).

It shouldn't be this difficult and if you are not looking for the very best sound possible, it's not. But for those of use who are OCD, anal or whatever, these after-the-fact steps are necessary to make it be correct.
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post #248 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Many people use their sub EQ in conjunction with Audyssey, and there is a section in the Audyssey FAQ devoted to that, using the SMS-1 as an example of how to proceed.

f)9. What's the best way to set up Audyssey when also using Velodyne's SMS-1 room EQ system?
Those of us with Velodyne DD subs have their PEQ system.

And this is exactly what I did with Pioneer MCACC until I bought AustinJerry's SVS Audyssey-based EQ1. The Velodyne system is quite useful and works very well, although can be time consuming to manually optimize the response curve from ground zero. Using their parametric EQ to tweak an Audyssey calibration would be relatively easy.
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post #249 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 10:25 AM
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Wow. I was able to hook all of my speakers up to my AVR and get them working and sounding ok.

I'm barely able to follow this conversation. The more I read, the more I know that I don't know.

One thing I'm pretty sure about now is that I could have done a lot better with my speaker placements. I did no research on angles and such. I was kind of limited on the right side by a bay window I had to contend with. That dictated here I put my left side speakers so they lined up cross-room. Then when I added the LH/RH speakers, I didn't put them on the facing wall. They ARE angled towards the MLP as much as possible and are Mirage Omnipolars (wide dispersion) so that's something anyway...I think. They're definitely not at ear level. I've mounted them upside down per the instructions, so the sound is dispersed downwards, which I think helps.

I'm not really unhappy with the state of my theater (except maybe the CC and one of the subs), I just wonder how much better it could be sounding. I suck at sheet rock work, and my painting skills are questionable, so moving the speakers is more of an undertaking than putting them up to begin with.

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I have found no one in my little (ice)berg who remotely cares about this stuff.
Just out of curiosity, if I may ask, which berg are you residing in?

Seth-o-Plex 11.2! - LG | Onkyo | Mirage | SVS
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post #250 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Maybe because your side/back surrounds are mounted too high
If only that were that case, then I could do something to make them sound better.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #251 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Just out of curiosity, if I may ask, which berg are you residing in?
Bend. Am looking forward to having you and Doublewing come over the pass once the roads are safe. I'd like to have the 7702 tuned up better by then.

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AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #252 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 01:41 PM
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If only that were that case, then I could do something to make them sound better.
Did you try?

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post #253 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you try?
I have heard surround decoders in myriad rooms over the last few decades. What is wrong with them cannot be fixed by moving the speakers up and down. Example: Neo:X has a high degree of correlation in the surrounds. It closes down the space.

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AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #254 of 256 Old 11-24-2014, 02:15 PM
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^
DSU with top surrounds might give different results?

Markus

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post #255 of 256 Old Yesterday, 10:04 PM
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***Neo:X and DSU have much more in common in several respects, but they also sound distinctly different. Neither works for me for 2-ch music. I'd be curious to hear other opinions. Do you currently use PLIIx for music?
That's really interesting to read. Honestly my whole interest in Atmos hangs on DSU improving on PLIIx for music. That's one of the things one of the Dolby gentlemen mentioned on Scott's podcast, too.

Yes, I listen to most music in PLIIx. I even upmix vinyl to 7.multisubs I find that it usually does a great job improving the sense of the original space - sometimes better than the 5.1-channel track on SACDs and DVD-As... - and very rarely to my ears diminishes a recording.

Current (and foreseeable future) setup has in wall monopoles slightly ahead of and above the MLP, and bidirectional out-of-phase speakers mounted high on the rear walls. If I did Atmos in this home it would have to be 7.multisubs.2 with reflecting speakers up front. (The room is prewired for that.)

I still want to try Atmos in my home at some point. But given that I last bought a Blu-Ray movie (as opposed to Blu-Ray Audio disk or concert disk on Blu-Ray video) disk when my Oppo BDP-83 was their current model...if DSU isn't an unambiguous advance for most 2.0 channel recordings then it my interest is substantially diminished. Especially given that PLIIx isn't typically available on Atmos kit.

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I plotted the frequency response of the XT32 filters.***
Does the most recent Audyssey curve still impose that stupid midrange dip?

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post #256 of 256 Old Yesterday, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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That's really interesting to read. Honestly my whole interest in Atmos hangs on DSU improving on PLIIx for music. That's one of the things one of the Dolby gentlemen mentioned on Scott's podcast, too.

Yes, I listen to most music in PLIIx. I even upmix vinyl to 7.multisubs I find that it usually does a great job improving the sense of the original space - sometimes better than the 5.1-channel track on SACDs and DVD-As... - and very rarely to my ears diminishes a recording.

Current (and foreseeable future) setup has in wall monopoles slightly ahead of and above the MLP, and bidirectional out-of-phase speakers mounted high on the rear walls. If I did Atmos in this home it would have to be 7.multisubs.2 with reflecting speakers up front. (The room is prewired for that.)

I still want to try Atmos in my home at some point. But given that I last bought a Blu-Ray movie (as opposed to Blu-Ray Audio disk or concert disk on Blu-Ray video) disk when my Oppo BDP-83 was their current model...if DSU isn't an unambiguous advance for most 2.0 channel recordings then it my interest is substantially diminished. Especially given that PLIIx isn't typically available on Atmos kit.
I understand your sentiments. You'd probably get a kick hearing vinyl through Fosgate's all tube preamp -- PLII -- tri-amped system. It's jaw dropping.

I hope you get some quality time with DSU with 2-ch music so you can decide for yourself.

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Does the most recent Audyssey curve still impose that stupid midrange dip?
There's a 3 dB dip from about 1.7 - 3 kHz in Ref mode, but that and the rolloff above 7 kHz are canceled in FLAT mode. I run it in Flat mode.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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