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post #31 of 428 Old 09-21-2009, 12:09 PM
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I really like the look you're going for - contemporary, with cherry. Any concerns about wood being very reflective of sound?

Essentially, zen seems at odds with the concept of a HT - I've been wrestling with that for a couple years now. Luckily, I'll have a few more years to figure it out before I start my build. The problem with a zen approach is that if you let zen 'be your guide', you'll be left with a minimalist HT (if any)!

Do you remember where you obtained any of your inspirational photos that you've posted? Have any others to share?

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post #32 of 428 Old 09-21-2009, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

Any concerns about wood being very reflective of sound?

Yes! I'm still not sure what to do about the two large columns flanking the seating. Inlaying acoustic panels for absorption would break up the look I'm after. But, I think I can make something work. The surrounds will require fabric covering anyway.


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Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

Essentially, zen seems at odds with the concept of a HT

Yes and no; ying and yang. Remember, it all depends on how you breathe...the order being of utmost importance.


All kidding aside, I'm really just going for a look and feel - not a place to meditate quietly. I mean, Steve is recommending subs that would quake my stick built house so much that it collapses in a flaming inferno of sonic beauty. At least then someone could say, "ashes to ashes, dust to dust".


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I've been wrestling with that for a couple years now. Luckily, I'll have a few more years to figure it out before I start my build. The problem with a zen approach is that if you let zen 'be your guide', you'll be left with a minimalist HT (if any)!

Follow the master and the way, learn you will...


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Do you remember where you obtained any of your inspirational photos that you've posted? Have any others to share?

houzz.com and google image search

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post #33 of 428 Old 09-21-2009, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by swithey View Post

I'm expecting those (2) monsters to have 2' diameters and be 7' in height with 18" drivers! You'll feel that bass -- no need for any stink'n butt-kickers in your room.

Ok, so I'm officially cursing you! Now it looks like I'll be building a Sonotube sub.

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post #34 of 428 Old 09-21-2009, 08:41 PM
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This may be in stock at the local Borders, perhaps you could browse the pages for some inspiration.

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Architectu.../dp/1423600096

I have a friend who builds only green homes, off-the-grid homes, and zen homes, and he has recommended that book to me.

One thought I had was that you can use plenty of wood in the room, just use the wood as diffusers. If you create a "normal" drywall construction, then use the wood on top of that, with slits (or slats depending on your cup of tea). Wood is so often used in traditional theaters (I mean like where you go to see an Orchestra or stage production, not the local mega-plex) that there has to be some good information out there on that design choice.

I bet with some careful planning you could have all the walls wood, and have the place sound great. It will be harder than the normal drywall, treatment, and fabric, no doubt, but I think it can be done. It would sure be unique... I'm getting ideas!

Here is a random google image hit:



Or this random hit:


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post #35 of 428 Old 09-21-2009, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Yet another updated design.

-20" diameter Sonotube subwoofers (thanks a lot)
-Bigger bass traps in the rear corners
-Corrected I-Beam width which resulted in moving the riser/bar forward
-Updated acoustic treatment colors to black - I think the previous color was confusing. Added a few that were in my mind. Remember, I'm clearing my mind right now.
-I really always have endeavored for a black hole effect up front. Hopefully this is a better representation of that goal.



The BIG question is to related image size and throw ratio. With a 13' throw ratio, can I achieve a 144" wide scope screen? I've been watching the Panny 3000/4000 and guess that it will be a year before I'm ready to buy the PJ. But right now with my Epson HC720 I am at full zoom to achieve a 150" diag 16:9 screen at a 16' throw distance. Sitting at 1.5x screen width (~135" x 1.5) I think the image is great. Thoughts?

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post #36 of 428 Old 09-21-2009, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Audixium View Post

The pole will now become a focal point in the room. I am at one with my pole.

Ummm... no, too easy...

Before you get too far on this, you may want to come study under the master... Wax on wax off, and that whole thing. The drywall comes on Friday, we'll see you then.

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post #37 of 428 Old 09-22-2009, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiahead View Post

Ummm... no, too easy...

Before you get too far on this, you may want to come study under the master... Wax on wax off, and that whole thing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiahead View Post

The drywall comes on Friday, we'll see you then.

Um...I think I have some appointments that day.

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post #38 of 428 Old 09-22-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audixium View Post

Ok, so I'm officially cursing you! Now it looks like I'll be building a Sonotube sub.

Lov'n it!! ...and that's DUAL sonotubes You'll be a bass nut very soon grasshopper

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The BIG question is to related image size and throw ratio. With a 13' throw ratio, can I achieve a 144" wide scope screen? I've been watching the Panny 3000/4000 and guess that it will be a year before I'm ready to buy the PJ. But right now with my Epson HC720 I am at full zoom to achieve a 150" diag 16:9 screen at a 16' throw distance. Sitting at 1.5x screen width (~135" x 1.5) I think the image is great. Thoughts?

I would say that if you are happy with 1.5x distance on a 135"-144" screen, go for it. The purists will say it's too big but I always say go as big as you can stand. What I have read is it is better to NOT be at the very top or bottom of your zoom range. I made a 124" scope and want to go larger now. When I made mine, 720p was the only economical option. My seating is about 11' from the screen and it was right on the edge for SDE. Now that I have a 1080p projector, I'd like to go larger (between 143" and 150" scope). The wife thinks I'm insane and has graciously put about a dozen "more important" projects in front of it

BTW -- have you narrowed down your speaker choices yet?
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post #39 of 428 Old 09-22-2009, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by swithey View Post

...and has graciously put about a dozen "more important" projects in front of it

I have a quick fix for that - a nice trip to somewhere tropical and a new ring on her finger. Make sure it lines up with some romantic milestone or celebration.

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BTW -- have you narrowed down your speaker choices yet?

Well, at first I'll just move my Klipsch RF62 L/R down there, add a third RF62 for the center, and RS62s for the remaining surrounds. Down the road I'd love to go with a setup based on THX Ultra2 KL-650s in the front, but that'll cost me another ring and a destination like Bali .

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post #40 of 428 Old 09-22-2009, 11:01 AM
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Make sure it lines up with some romantic milestone or celebration.

Piece of cake.




At my age, EVERY romantic celebration is a milestone!!

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post #41 of 428 Old 09-22-2009, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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A bit late on this reply, sorry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenP View Post

This may be in stock at the local Borders, perhaps you could browse the pages for some inspiration.

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Architectu.../dp/1423600096

I have a friend who builds only green homes, off-the-grid homes, and zen homes, and he has recommended that book to me.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.


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Originally Posted by warrenP View Post

One thought I had was that you can use plenty of wood in the room, just use the wood as diffusers. If you create a "normal" drywall construction, then use the wood on top of that, with slits (or slats depending on your cup of tea). Wood is so often used in traditional theaters (I mean like where you go to see an Orchestra or stage production, not the local mega-plex) that there has to be some good information out there on that design choice.

I bet with some careful planning you could have all the walls wood, and have the place sound great. It will be harder than the normal drywall, treatment, and fabric, no doubt, but I think it can be done. It would sure be unique...

Yes, it would be very cool. Those pics are awesome. Unfortunately I don't think I am enough at one with saw, sand, and stain to employ the precision required.

The other part of this project includes a small control room/recording space. I've come across a ton of great info regarding wood diffusers while planning that room. I'll most likely employ some of the techniques in there.

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post #42 of 428 Old 09-22-2009, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Audixium View Post

... Unfortunately I don't think I am enough at one with saw, sand, and stain to employ the precision required.

Any man secure enough to tell the world that he is one with his pole should also be one with saw, sand, and stain.

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The other part of this project includes a small control room/recording space. I've come across a ton of great info regarding wood diffusers while planning that room. I'll most likely employ some of the techniques in there.

I think the wood diffusers are a perfect match...

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post #43 of 428 Old 09-23-2009, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Audixium View Post

Follow the master and the way, learn you will...

houzz.com and google image search

houzz.com is AWESOME! Thanks!

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -Buddha

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post #44 of 428 Old 09-23-2009, 04:02 PM
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I cant wait to see how this turns out...too bad you didnt live closer or I would come offer to help. As you know I like to work with wood, so I am really looking forward to seeing how your theater turns out.
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post #45 of 428 Old 09-23-2009, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I cant wait to see how this turns out...too bad you didnt live closer or I would come offer to help. As you know I like to work with wood, so I am really looking forward to seeing how your theater turns out.

If only you and Steve worked for beer and peanuts...I'd fly you both out and get tired watching work get done like some others around here.

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post #46 of 428 Old 09-23-2009, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audixium View Post

The BIG question is to related image size and throw ratio. With a 13' throw ratio, can I achieve a 144" wide scope screen? I've been watching the Panny 3000/4000 and guess that it will be a year before I'm ready to buy the PJ. But right now with my Epson HC720 I am at full zoom to achieve a 150" diag 16:9 screen at a 16' throw distance. Sitting at 1.5x screen width (~135" x 1.5) I think the image is great. Thoughts?

From my read of the PT-AE3000 manual, it appears you cannot get 144" width at that short a throw. They show almost 16' minimum for a 138" wide screen. Anyway, be sure to check to make sure.

At a 10' seating distance, the front row gets a 60-deg image angle. As Ed Sullivan would say, that's "a really big shoo."
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post #47 of 428 Old 09-23-2009, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

From my read of the PT-AE3000 manual, it appears you cannot get 144" width at that short a throw. They show almost 16' minimum for a 138" wide screen. Anyway, be sure to check to make sure.

At a 10' seating distance, the front row gets a 60-deg image angle. As Ed Sullivan would say, that's "a really big shoo."

Roger,

LOVED your build from the first post. I specifically like your soffit access. I'm still extremely peaved they cancelled the series. It was one of my all time favorites. Too bad it cost too much to produce for HBO's tastes (just like Rome - another great production).

Thanks for chiming in on the throw ratio issue. I understand that I should not be at either end of the throw ratio limits for any given PJ (like Steve said). However, I have no problems at the max zoom with my Epson HC720. Well, except that I run in dynamic mode in order to light up that much screen (150" diag 16:9).

I need to spend more time on this. The way I understand it, for a 60" high 1.78:1 projected image I would be fine with my throw distance. However, for a 60" high 2.40:1 image I would indeed need a 16' throw. How does a lens factor into this? Aren't those numbers from the manual just for the internal zoom settings? I think in the end I'll end up with an outboard processor of some sort - leaving an anamorphic lens in place all the time...

I'm hoping others will chime in...because, my understanding is that if I can achieve a 60" high 1.78 image with my throw distance, adding a lens will "simply" stretch that width out. Of course a couple other factors come into play. Do I have this all wrong?

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post #48 of 428 Old 09-24-2009, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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The Zen of Throw Distance
I decided that I'm just going to live with whatever I can pull off given my throw distance - when it's time to actually buy a PJ for this room. I'm hoping that isn't two years from now, but given my Zen like attitude it could certainly be longer (think virtual reality projectors).

The Zen of Marriage
The wife said a GC would get this entire basement done in a month (ha!). I prepped her for reality with "the average build documented on AVS is about 2 yrs start to finish". She sees that as the biggest reason to hire everything out.

The Zen of PJs
I really like what I've read and seen online about the new Epsons (8100 and 8500UB). I'm even thinking about replacing my living room HC720 with the 8100. Surely once my basement is done I'll be able to have virtual...um, Ommmmm......

To be, or not to be - ok, it's not Zen
But, the most compelling thing I've read recently is regarding the effects of sound isolation on room acoustics. Over on the acoustics thread there has been a lot of chatter about how stiffening the walls by adding mass (DD) actually has a detrimental effect on room acoustics, requiring additional treatments and in some cases creating situations that can't reasonably be fixed.

Funny how after reading about all this stuff for two years you can still end up confused. Then, three experts all tell you something different making you even more

The Zen of Screen Size
I'm very close to making a wise decision. In almost every v1.0 HT reflection statement the builder says "I'm going bigger next time around". Since I'm at one with my pole, I decided I should ensure that I'll forever be at one with my screen size. Therefore, I am 90% sure that I'm going to build the screenwall as one huge SeymourAV AT screen. That's right, floor to ceiling AT material. Then, I'll setup a system to mask to whatever the projector of the year can muster. How you like them apples?

Zen and, well, you know...
I think you can now perceive this thread as:

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post #49 of 428 Old 09-24-2009, 07:15 PM
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To be, or not to be
Funny how after reading about all this stuff for two years you can still end up confused. Then, three experts all tell you something different making you even more

Amazing how three experts can sometimes disagree...



... albeit in a very zen-like way ...

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post #50 of 428 Old 09-24-2009, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audixium View Post

Roger,

LOVED your build from the first post. I specifically like your soffit access. I'm still extremely peaved they cancelled the series. It was one of my all time favorites. Too bad it cost too much to produce for HBO's tastes (just like Rome - another great production).

Thanks much. At least Deadwood is being re-run on DirecTV101 at the moment--great to see it on a big screen this time. Too bad they don't know how to broadcast a 5.1 program--they feed L/R only into a 5.1 encoder. Goofballs.

Quote:


I need to spend more time on this. The way I understand it, for a 60" high 1.78:1 projected image I would be fine with my throw distance. However, for a 60" high 2.40:1 image I would indeed need a 16' throw. How does a lens factor into this? Aren't those numbers from the manual just for the internal zoom settings? I think in the end I'll end up with an outboard processor of some sort - leaving an anamorphic lens in place all the time...

I'm hoping others will chime in...because, my understanding is that if I can achieve a 60" high 1.78 image with my throw distance, adding a lens will "simply" stretch that width out. Of course a couple other factors come into play. Do I have this all wrong?

Adding the lens makes all the difference for getting the wider image. I hadn't realized that was in the plan. Be careful, though, the lens gains some brightness as it uses all the PJ's pixels, but loses some as well--that's what glass does. Then there's the pincushion and chromatic aberrations, which probably both get worse as the throw distance is reduced, as the image is occupying more of the lens.

Yes, best if someone familiar with all these matters chimes in. I'll go back to the theater now.
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post #51 of 428 Old 09-25-2009, 07:33 AM
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LOL!!! if your wife actually believes the GC will have it done in 1 month, have her read QueenDVD's thread. Yes she added stuff, but all in all the GC took quite a while to get it done in between all the time he just up and dissappeared.

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post #52 of 428 Old 09-25-2009, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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LOL!!! if your wife actually believes the GC will have it done in 1 month, have her read QueenDVD's thread. Yes she added stuff, but all in all the GC took quite a while to get it done in between all the time he just up and dissappeared.

Ancient Zen saying - How sad that people ignore the near and search for truth afar.

Now, why are you posting on AVS? Get to work hanging that drywall!

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post #53 of 428 Old 09-25-2009, 09:33 AM
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they were still hauling at that time, and now the inlaws are here, so not much will be done today. Besides, I got a workout just getting up early...

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post #54 of 428 Old 09-25-2009, 01:53 PM
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I'm really interested in the wood wall treatments.

Thanks again on the Houzz tip - I've spent about 4 hours saving images.

I found some wood sound diffusors that looked great, but pricey. I bet I could make something similar.

Some Houzz pics that inspired me

Attachment 153586

Attachment 153587

Attachment 153588


Attachment 153589
LL
LL
LL
LL

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post #55 of 428 Old 09-25-2009, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

Thanks again on the Houzz tip - I've spent about 4 hours saving images.

On Houzz you should try setting up an ideabox thingy - it makes browsing, then saving the images off later easier.

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This pic above is probably the closest representation to the intended color scheme. Thanks for posting it!

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post #56 of 428 Old 09-25-2009, 02:59 PM
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What status will come after the clearing of the mind?

Clearing of the room? Or maybe stretching of the mind?

I'm curious the zen workflow. You should build a zen theater gantt chart.

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post #57 of 428 Old 09-25-2009, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenP View Post

What status will come after the clearing of the mind?

Clearing of the room? Or maybe stretching of the mind?

I'm curious the zen workflow. You should build a zen theater gantt chart.

Your mind is like water warrenP. Clearing of the room, yes, it is the next progression - thus the uncluttering.

Gantt charts are not in the tradition - even as a tool of learning. Yün-men's response applies here: Dried Shitstick.

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post #58 of 428 Old 09-26-2009, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Yet another updated design...I'm trying to get as much throw distance as possible while being at one with my immovable pole - mind like water, pole like stone. So, I may be compromising the audio but I think it will be somewhat ok.

-Now am designing based on Klipsch KL-650-THX. Over at the Klipsch forums some gurus have said it is fine to recess the cabinet in a wall. I won't go that far, but I will nestle them into the 3" acoustic foam wedges.
-Acoustic designers have said it is ok to not have right angle bass traps in the corner.
-Moved the subs out from behind the screenwall.

These three things gained some valuable throw distance (now almost at 14'3").

Also, I added some wood flooring around the perimeter of the room under the soffits. I know this kills my black hole in the front but I'm ok with that. It also probably messes up the audio, but it's ok: Matters of great concern should be treated lightly.

In the rear of the room I added the tile treatment above the sink like the first style pic in this thread. I'm thinking about doing something like the alcove with the vase, but for the sink. I think based on the tile texture and installation it may act (however poorly) as a diffuser.

The darker flooring in the rear is tile. I know this is a big no no for acoustics, but I'll throw in an area rug to try to compensate as much as possible.

The large soffit spanning the room over the front row will have an inch or two of linacoustic - or anything - to minimize reflections from the surrounds.

I plan to have a cloud hanging from the front ceiling in order to catch first reflections there. I'd love to do a star ceiling like Steve and many others but am not sure at this point if I'll have the energy when I get to that point. Luckily that can always be added after a refreshing break.

Comments, concerns?

My Zen master taught me: Make decisions in the space of seven breaths.



EDIT> #1

Colors (wood is too light, but black is mixed in, wood/tile combo, black footer of columns):


Colors & Tile treatment above sink:

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post #59 of 428 Old 09-28-2009, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Some layout updates...

A few changes have been incorporated related to the rear area (thanks Steve!) that include the following:

1) The riser will now span from the bar to the rear of the room. I was optimistically thinking folks wouldn't roll off, but after a few drinks all bets would be off.

2) I pushed the entry out to accomodate the step up. With the doors open you still have room to go straight ahead or turn right.

3) The two front columns won't be Sonotube subs, just downfiring subs in columns.

4) The front and rear soffits have been increased to match the depth of the corner columns. I'm leaving the left and right soffits at their current depth as it matches the large center columns.

5) Moved the sink over to allow more space.

6) Switched to inwalls for the surrounds.

7) Added visuals for the PJ and lens in the hushbox.




I think the overall layout is fairly firm at this point, so I started an elevation of the left wall. To cover up my pole I have it wrapped in a 6" wood column. That isn't part of the large column design, just something in the field of vision. It's hard to make out the soffits, but my plan is to use a flat piece of trim for the light tray. I haven't figured out my star ceiling/absorption yet so it's missing. I'm curious what input folks have.

Left Wall


Right Wall

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post #60 of 428 Old 09-28-2009, 08:25 PM
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