How to sound proof home theater room ceiling - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 77 Old 10-03-2009, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Steve*MH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am looking to insulate/sound proof my new construction home theater room (basement). I am using R-19 for the two exterior walls, R-13 for the other two walls. I am wondering how to handle the ceiling. I was planning to use R-19 in the ceiling; attaching the batts to the subfloor - above the bottom of the floor trusses. Is this a good approach? I realize there are probably much more expensive ways to sound proof the room; however, I am looking for economical and effective ways to sound proof the room; in particular, the ceiling in this case and if attaching the insulation in this way to the "ceiling" is an effective approach. Thanks.
Steve*MH is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 77 Old 10-04-2009, 03:46 AM
Senior Member
 
whumpf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 250
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You need insulation, but insulation is not really soundproofing. I would start by reading the soundproofing articles at http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/library/
whumpf is offline  
post #3 of 77 Old 10-04-2009, 05:33 AM
HOME THEATER CONTRACTOR
 
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 20,645
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Liked: 569
You need to soundproof the room not the just the ceiling. Sound does not just travel in a straight path.

Fiberglass will not put a dent in the sub-woofer rumble of a Home theater and if you want to avoid someone standing at the top of the stairs and yelling at you to turn it down you should read the library of articles mentioned.
BIGmouthinDC is offline  
post #4 of 77 Old 10-04-2009, 07:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...cles/flanking/

This is what Big is referring to

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #5 of 77 Old 10-05-2009, 07:25 AM
Member
 
PyroNoel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't want to hijack your thread Steve, but some questions I've been wondering might fit your needs as well.... I've read the articles at soundproofingcompany.com

In my house, I converted the attached garage into 2 bedrooms for the kids. The floor was built up to the level of the house by basically building a deck, with R19 insulation in the floor. The floor joists were attached to the exterior wall, and then to the band board of the house. The wall that they share with the upstairs is insulated with R13. And I put solid core doors on their rooms as well. That entire side of the house that they share the wall with is kitchen/dining room --- That has 3/4 Subfloor, grouted in hardi-board, then ceramic tile.

When I build the basement theater, soundproofing is going to be very hard with my low ceilings. A room in a room ceiling is out of the question with the way my floor joists are setup with cross supports inside them. The way it is right now, when in their rooms, they hear NOTHING from the basement. I wonder how well this setup will block the bass.
PyroNoel is offline  
post #6 of 77 Old 10-05-2009, 07:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Pyro. Most here can attest to the need / desire for very tall ceilings. Many threads and posts.

In a nutshell, if you can't look at this as an aquarium you're building, there will be compromises. Low frequency bass will require decoupling, mass, absorption and damping to get the results you'd like.

The ceiling is generally the biggest surface that requires your attention. You can insert Clips + channel up in the joist space a bit, dropping the finished ceiling height to 1.75" below the bottom of the existing joists, assuming you don't have a great deal of pipes and ducts below the joists.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #7 of 77 Old 10-06-2009, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Steve*MH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
For clarification sake; it seems from the articles on the website mentioned, that the main elements of soundproofing doesn't involve any special materials such as MLV or "special" insulation; but basically multiple layers of drywall and green glue. Regarding the ceiling; it looked like R-19 insulation is involved in all the scenarios mentioned, so I am good to go there. It seems the choice now is whether to put multiple layers of drywall inside the floor joists and on the subfloor itself (seems difficult) or add multiple layers in a traditional method attached to the bottom of the floor joists. I have 9' ceilings; so perhaps I can give up a couple of inches for additional drywall. To take it to the next level would involve channels and clips; not decided if I need that level of proofing and the differences it would make over just three layers of drywall and green glue. What I am considering now is applying the R-19 to the subfloor (inbetween the floor joists) - which would "compress" the R-19 and add to is sound diffusing nature - right? Then leave the option for multiple layers of drywall and green glue to sound proof the ceiling. This would leave a "gap between the ceiling and the insulation/subfloor for fishing wires etc. down the road. How does this sound - OK? Thanks for any input.
Steve*MH is offline  
post #8 of 77 Old 10-06-2009, 03:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cuzed2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago Area
Posts: 4,404
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Steve*MH,

I filled my ceilings with the fluffy stuff and do not have regrets; at least not for my needs, and expectations.

HOWEVER: Please keep in mind what others are saying about LFE isolation:
No amount of fiberglass insulation will keep the Low frequencies from being heard (and felt) in the living area directly above. If I would have had your ceiling height to work with >> I would have gone with double drywall and GG...

Cuzed2
Check out a video of my theater here
CuznEddy Cinema
Officially Hanesamatized on 8/1/09

cuzed2 is offline  
post #9 of 77 Old 10-06-2009, 03:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Steve the biggest gain in decoupled framing (clips on ceiling) is much better low frequency isolation. Your three sheets of drywall would perform much better for you, as would the insulation. Both are more efficient in a decoupled scenario.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #10 of 77 Old 10-06-2009, 04:51 PM
Senior Member
 
yourtoys7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
R20 and 2 layers of drywall. Didn't want to spend alot but it stops enuph for my needs.

EluneVision 106" Reference Studio 4K Tab-tensioned - 1.0 Gain, Benq 1070, psb T6, Rotel, OPPO, Velodine (Now),
135" AT screen, JVC-X35, 3x RF82, 3x Emotiva XPA100, Velodine, Rotel, OPPO (Sold with house).
yourtoys7 is offline  
post #11 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 06:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 31
We did drop tiles (not even acoustic ones) with just R19 faced insulation between the joist spaces for our HT. We can not hear any mid/high range in the livingroom directly above the theater. We can hear bass rumble and boom, but it is muffled. It is hard to convey something that is subjective via internet, but I have been explaining it that a person watching TV in the livingroom wouldn't think twice about it. Someone trying to read a book in the livingroom would probably want to go up to one of the bedrooms.

The bedrooms on the second floor are fine. Doesn't wake my son and doesn't preclude my wife from falling asleep.

Ymmv. Obviously if you have plans to line the front wall of your theater with SVS's, you'll want to think harder about more dedicated soundproofing build techniques.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #12 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 06:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Yes, YMMV and everyone has different needs and building structures. Not everyone needs or wants significant sound isolation.

As a general rule, if you are needing/wanting to use a dropped ceiling, please don't waste your time and funds on soundproofing materials on the walls or above the tiles. Insulation is fine, obviously (R19) but I'd encourage you to say "no thanks" when considering MLV squares up on top of the tiles, etc.

The lack of isolation in the ceiling will forever define the system despite what you do to walls, doors and ventilation.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #13 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 07:31 AM
Senior Member
 
yourtoys7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Ceiling was my biggest isue, that why we dd. on drywall with R20, the wall got one layer of drywall and ext.metal door (decent sealled).
I find with everybuild you add more and more, this is my 2nd. I'm sure I'll do room with in a room one day :>

EluneVision 106" Reference Studio 4K Tab-tensioned - 1.0 Gain, Benq 1070, psb T6, Rotel, OPPO, Velodine (Now),
135" AT screen, JVC-X35, 3x RF82, 3x Emotiva XPA100, Velodine, Rotel, OPPO (Sold with house).
yourtoys7 is offline  
post #14 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 07:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
Dradius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

We did drop tiles (not even acoustic ones) with just R19 faced insulation between the joist spaces for our HT. We can not hear any mid/high range in the livingroom directly above the theater.

I've read/talked to several people who say the same thing. There are lots of variables of course, but drop ceiling tiles and insulation does make a significant difference for lots of people.
Dradius is offline  
post #15 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 08:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Yes, YMMV and everyone has different needs and building structures. Not everyone needs or wants significant sound isolation.

As a general rule, if you are needing/wanting to use a dropped ceiling, please don't waste your time and funds on soundproofing materials on the walls or above the tiles. Insulation is fine, obviously (R19) but I'd encourage you to say "no thanks" when considering MLV squares up on top of the tiles, etc.

The lack of isolation in the ceiling will forever define the system despite what you do to walls, doors and ventilation.

I don't think I would paint it as such a bleak pass/fail scenario. It isn't really the case where building with all the recommended techniques results in pin drop silence right outside the theater and anything less than this results in having deafening theater sounds reverberating throughout the entire house.

I wouldn't disagree with any of the specific recommendations, I just don't agree with making such blanket statements without putting a little more effort into contextualizing them. Sometimes, when people use comments like don't waste your time or Not everyone needs or wants significant sound isolation or will forever define it paints a picture that it is all or nothing, and that really isn't the case. Perhaps adding a little bit of relativism to the response to help people judge what the impact would actually mean to them instead of just making rather undefined comments like significant sound isolation.

Further, these discussions always seem to treat sound as if it is just one entity, usually the bass. It is understandable as the bass is usually the most difficult to contain. Fair enough, as such it should get the lion's share of the discussion. However, I would point out that for me personally (and I assume others feel similar) If I am trying to do something outside of the theater room (I have a computer nook right outside the theater doors) I'd much rather hear a distant boom, boom every so often during the explosion scenes than I want to hear just enough of the dialog track to constantly be distracted with trying to make out what they are saying. Making blanket comments that suggest you shouldn't waste time with doors or walls if you are going to forever destine your build to failure with a drop ceiling can give people the wrong impression about sound attenuation.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #16 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 08:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
I say these things because I've been saying them here since 1999. If you want significant sound isolation you cannot depend on a dropped ceiling. Another blanket statement because it's true.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #17 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 09:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
Dradius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Ted, I take it from your signature you own a sound proofing company?
Dradius is offline  
post #18 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 09:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Yes sir.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #19 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 09:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
queendvd2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

I say these things because I've been saying them here since 1999. If you want significant sound isolation you cannot depend on a dropped ceiling. Another blanket statement because it's true.

I, for one, appreciate Ted's candor. When I was deep in the middle of my build I was planning on doing the drop ceiling with DD+GG walls. Even though the soundproofing company would have lost my GG purchase, Ted instructed me that I'd be wasting my $ since my sound would ultimately leak through my drop ceiling. In the end, I switched to a drywall ceiling since sound containment was a very important issue for me. But I agree, it's all very subjective and obviously everyone has different needs.
queendvd2 is offline  
post #20 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 09:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

I say these things because I've been saying them here since 1999.

In all those years, have you ever stopped to explain in quantitative terms, or qualitative terms, what you mean when you say "significant sound isolation?" Fair enough if you have a standing rule for what "significant" is to you, I'd actually be interested to hear about it.

I'm not trying to be a dink here. I was just pointing out that terms like "significant" and "wasting" are not universal to all people.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #21 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 10:47 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Dennis Erskine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Near an airport
Posts: 9,138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 46
When one has nothing constructive to add to a discussion, one tends to move the debate to non-substantive matters such as mincing words and semantics.

In this case, Mr. Suntan, you are being a "dink" (to quote), and it is clear your understanding of sound isolation, methods, techniques, failure modes, and needs would relegate your commentary to the "no value added" bucket.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
Architectural Acoustics
Subject Matter Expert
Certified Home Theater Designer
CEDIA Board of Directors
www.erskine-group.com
www.CinemaForte.net
Dennis Erskine is offline  
post #22 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 11:07 AM
Advanced Member
 
Dradius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I value Suntan's comments. Personally I like to hear everyone's opinions and thoughts, not just the self-proclaimed experts.
Dradius is offline  
post #23 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 11:26 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
dc_pilgrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Central... PA
Posts: 4,617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Let's not insult our experts and their credentials. There is nothing self proclaimed about the decades of experience they bring to the table. If you want a drop ceiling, go for it, pre-warned that LFE is going to be an issue. Not everyone gets advanced warning on that point. You can thank Dennis and Ted for making sure that the regulars on AVS are informed well enough to point this out for you.
dc_pilgrim is offline  
post #24 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 11:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

When one has nothing constructive to add to a discussion, one tends to move the debate to non-substantive matters such as mincing words and semantics.

In this case, Mr. Suntan, you are being a "dink" (to quote), and it is clear your understanding of sound isolation, methods, techniques, failure modes, and needs would relegate your commentary to the "no value added" bucket.

Right back at ya Dennis for your constructive attributes to this thread. Sorry if you think I am picking on “one of the good old boys” of the forum here in this thread, as that was not my intention and I have gone out of my way to express it. I happen to value Ted’s opinions on things a good deal myself. I know you hold the view that I ruffled your feathers in some previous post, but I am here to discuss the topic at hand, not get snarky with you.

As for my qualifications in this regard, it is true that I have not spent any time designing rooms for people (Other than myself.) However, I do have advanced engineering degrees in thermodynamics, heat & mass transfer (exceedingly similar to sound propagation in their fundamental ways) and I have spent a good number of years dealing with NVH issues (including vibration in the audible frequencies) on powered equipment that I design. Mostly dealing with the noise and vibrations directly, but some to do with attenuating them after the fact. No doubt it will not be good enough for you, but then this is a free forum and anyone is free to come in and give their 2 cents. As you’ve shown.

Do you, Dennis, have a metric for what you consider “significant sound isolation?”

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
post #25 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 11:39 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
dc_pilgrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Central... PA
Posts: 4,617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
You can read the library of test reports here:

http://www.greengluecompany.com/tran...nLossTests.php

Nothing for dropped ceilings though.
dc_pilgrim is offline  
post #26 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 11:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
cuzed2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago Area
Posts: 4,404
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 63
OK - can we all play nice now :-)

And appreciate the free advice that is offered at N/C by professionals,
-AND-
The practical opinions, based on just HT build experience offered by others.

It's all good; and a good cause > for educating all readers.

Cuzed2
Check out a video of my theater here
CuznEddy Cinema
Officially Hanesamatized on 8/1/09

cuzed2 is offline  
post #27 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 12:05 PM
Member
 
PyroNoel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
One STC measurement I didn't seem able to find to compare on the sound company's website...

If I were to take my basement ceiling, DD/GG, how much would that change from just securing that directly to the floor joist, vrs decoupeling with channel? From the test results published, I see in the bass fq range, the GG dampening is of BIG importance.
-So just how much does the decoupling of the ceiling make?
PyroNoel is offline  
post #28 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 12:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ted White's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Midland, MI USA
Posts: 8,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
You don't find much formal testing on this because the entire phenomenon occurs below the 125Hz cutoff for STC calculations.

This topic is covered in some detail here: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...e_leaf_effect/

Essentially you want to build a wall, ceiling or floor with as low a resonance point as possible. Why? because we can't stop much vibration below that partition's resonance point. Above the resonance point we have the ability to reduce vibration. At and below the resonance point we are simply mass/stiffness defined. We get no help from decoupling, insulation, Green Glue, crucifixes or crossed fingers.

So if a wall has a resonance point at 100Hz, it will start to bleed sound as we approach 100Hz during music playback. At 150Hz, you can feel the wall start to vibrate. At 120Hz, much more vibration. At 100Hz, it's vibrating like crazy, and not stopping much sound at that frequency. Below 100Hz, things aren't very pretty, either. We'd therefore like that resonance point as low as possible.

How do we lower that resonance point? The #1 thing you can do is to decouple the wall surface. Decoupling will move a wall's resonance point down considerably. What else can we do? Add absorption (insulation) to drop even further. Then make the wall as heavy as possible with drywall. Lastly, we make the wall cavity as deep as we can. Each of these things will progressively march that resonance point down, down, down.

So decoupling becomes a fantastic weapon against low frequency. Without first decoupling, the benefits of mass, insulation and cavity depth are not fully realized.

__________________

Ted



The Soundproofing Company
Ted White is offline  
post #29 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 12:46 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Dennis Erskine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Near an airport
Posts: 9,138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:


Right back at ya Denise

That would be Dennis.
Quote:


“one of the good old boys”

So Ted is nothing more than Bubba, one of the good ol' boys? I see you truly respect his knowledge and are willing to point that out.
Quote:


I know you hold the view that I ruffled your feathers in some previous post

You know what? How do you know this interesting fact? You spoke to me about this? You seem to have knowledge I do not have.

Your approach to Ted (as it has been with others) has been confrontational and challenging. Not at all in the vein of a collegial effort to define a common base line.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
Architectural Acoustics
Subject Matter Expert
Certified Home Theater Designer
CEDIA Board of Directors
www.erskine-group.com
www.CinemaForte.net
Dennis Erskine is offline  
post #30 of 77 Old 10-07-2009, 01:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Apologies about the name, that was not intentional and I have updated it.

As for the rest of your comments, you win. I'm out.

-Suntan
Suntan is offline  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off