The Cinemar Home Theater Construction Thread - Page 107 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3181 of 3205 Old 02-13-2015, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
Thanks for the tip!!

Any recommendations as to what pre-conditioner to use?
I've used Zinsser and sealcoat /Bullseye on Poplar before with good results. Minwax used to make a pre-stain wood conditioner, but it's not available in some areas (CA I know for sure) due to law changes.

Charles Neil also has a good product that many people swear by. Just search his name and "blotch control"

Take a look at this: edited***

Try this, is should help. ^ Drop me a PM or reply here after you grab it so I can kill the download link. I don't want it up forever.
All you need to know.

Check out page 64
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post #3182 of 3205 Old 02-13-2015, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I've used Zinsser and sealcoat /Bullseye on Poplar before with good results. Minwax used to make a pre-stain wood conditioner, but it's not available in some areas (CA I know for sure) due to law changes.

Charles Neil also has a good product that many people swear by. Just search his name and "blotch control"

Take a look at this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uw8ev824cb...utpdf.pdf?dl=0

Try this, is should help. ^ Drop me a PM or reply here after you grab it so I can kill the download link. I don't want it up forever.
All you need to know.
Thanks. I grabbed the PDF and will have to take some time to read through it.

I have some miniwax sanding sealer - is that the same as pre-stain conditioner or are we talking about two different things?

Also, I was going to see if my father-in-law would spray on the stain. I'm assuming applying with a brush vs spraying wouldn't matter and the pre-stain conditioner would still make sense.
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post #3183 of 3205 Old 02-13-2015, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
Thanks. I grabbed the PDF and will have to take some time to read through it.

I have some miniwax sanding sealer - is that the same as pre-stain conditioner or are we talking about two different things?

Also, I was going to see if my father-in-law would spray on the stain. I'm assuming applying with a brush vs spraying wouldn't matter and the pre-stain conditioner would still make sense.
Just skip to page 64. Save yourself some trouble. Then read the rest. That guy has a massive brain dump in that book- he really just glosses over the surface of a lot of that stuff dumping insights of knowledge he's gained over many years of finishing.

As for products- something like the sealcoat or Zinnser stuff should be available just about everywhere. Shelac has long been used and is cheap and widely available.

The idea of the blotch control and sealer is just to make the wood absorb the stain at about the same rate, where as some places might not and you get dark/light patches. Depending on the wood and the stain and the desired finish this might or might not be that important.

There is some cool tricks in there like sanding to alter stain color and stuff like that too. But it might be getting too advanced for what you want to do.

Also - if you mean HVLP spray on the stain that is usually a little bit more universally even than wipe on and off, especially if you spray after sealing. If you want a universally equal stain application that might be a good idea. I always struggle with brush and and old sock method on something like you are doing, it seems like the corners, the nooks and crannies, and the end grains always come out a bit different color than the face does. Sealer is a great idea.

I think sealer and pre-stain conditioner are kind of the same thing. But the products might have different ingredients.

This stuff is usually available:
http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/...od-conditioner


If you want to step up....





More info:

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...rule-them-all/

and,

http://www.cn-woodworking.com/cn-pre-color-conditioner/


That is the higher end option.


If you want to try a DIY yourself:

Quote:
I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil’s pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.

Watching his video he said it was a water based PVA enhanced product and doing some searching here and there I found that diluted PVA white glue has been used for years to control blotching. I just couldn’t leave it alone so I started experimenting and I have come up with an alternative using Gorilla White Wood glue which I think is a polyvinyl alcohol glue and not very inexpensive ($5.97 for 18 oz shipped free to house from Home Depot).

I took 5 oz of the Gorilla White Wood Glue and mixed it with 36 oz of water and then added 2 oz of General Finishes natural water based stain. I then mainly followed the application directions for the Charles Neil blotch control only with my mix and the results were very close to the same.

After sanding with 220 use two coats pre stain conditioner as follows: Apply wet coat of pre stain conditioner (allowing short time for softwood to absorb mix) then wipe excess lightly with a dampened rag of pre stain conditioner with grain (allow coat to dry fully 2-4 hours depending on temp and humidity) and sand lightly with ROS machine 220 then by hand with 220 following grain between and after 2nd coat. Hand sand with 320 along grain as a final buff before applying stain. Brush on waterborne dye stain with foam brush letting set for short time so that it bites into pre stain conditioner wiping excess off lightly with clean rag along grain without putting too much pressure on surface of wood.

After dye stain has dried (minimum 2-4 hours depending on temp and humidity), apply spray with ½ lb cut to ¾ lb cut dewaxed shellac, two coats sanding (lightly with 220 ROS and hand 320 along grain) between coats not breaking through shellac into color.

Apply by spray thinned finish coat over everything and let dry then hand sand lightly with 320 or 400 and apply multiple full finish coats drying and sanding between coats.

Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner (Homemade)
http://lumberjocks.com/pjones46/blog/22172

That is an option on the cheap and easy ^ DIY is always fun too

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post #3184 of 3205 Old 02-16-2015, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the great info.

I also found some good information right on the mini-wax website which says not to use sanding sealer if you plan to stain the wood:
http://www.minwax.com/how-to-finish-...d-preparation/



For anyone interested, I just listed my well cared for Onkyo TX-NR3008 receiver for sale - it's looking for a good home:
FS: Onkyo TX-NR3008 Internet ready, 3D HDMI equipped 9.2 Home Theater Receiver
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post #3185 of 3205 Old 02-16-2015, 09:46 AM
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You might just shelac it and be done. It's been done that way for a hundred years and a million times.

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post #3186 of 3205 Old 02-16-2015, 10:02 PM
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Mario,
What is the thickness of that recycled denim wall layer behind the screen?
What is the distance from the inside of the wall (or from the denim wall)to the back of the screen?
Did you put a denim layer inside each red GOM panel, or just the ones in the back of the room?
Is there enough room to put Subs behind the cabinet doors in the front of the room?

Thanks
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post #3187 of 3205 Old 02-17-2015, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aakrusen View Post
Mario,
What is the thickness of that recycled denim wall layer behind the screen?
What is the distance from the inside of the wall (or from the denim wall)to the back of the screen?
Did you put a denim layer inside each red GOM panel, or just the ones in the back of the room?
Is there enough room to put Subs behind the cabinet doors in the front of the room?

Thanks
I put two layers of recycled denim on the back wall behind the screen. Each layer is 3/4" thick. So 1.5" for both.
It's been a while but I believe there is about 11 - 13" of space behind the screen. Just enough to squeeze in the speakers.
There is denim in all the red fabric panels. My plan was to strategically take some out on offsetting walls, but I never got around to that and did any room measurements.
I currently have 4 subs in the front wall behind the various cabinets.
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Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
I put two layers of recycled denim on the back wall behind the screen. Each layer is 3/4" thick. So 1.5" for both.
It's been a while but I believe there is about 11 - 13" of space behind the screen. Just enough to squeeze in the speakers.
There is denim in all the red fabric panels. My plan was to strategically take some out on offsetting walls, but I never got around to that and did any room measurements.
I currently have 4 subs in the front wall behind the various cabinets.
Is the denim layer behind the red panels 3/4" like the screen pieces?
Where did you get the denim stuff or what is it called?
Knowing what you know now, would you choose to denim again?
Did you have a side shot of the viewing angles for the three rows?
Is the 12" height difference between the 1st and 2nd row sufficient or should there be a taller gap (based on where your screen is)?
I think I read a post where you said you purchased 32 yards of the red GOM, was that enough?
Did that include the black GOM or was that separate?
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post #3189 of 3205 Old 03-02-2015, 04:50 PM
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Finally made it through the thread!

Beautiful work, and thank you for going above and beyond in this thread, it's made reading through it very informative and entertaining.

Did you ever get a chance to run through REW, and if you did, did you make any major changes based on the results, in order to fine-tune your audio?

I also have a request: that you stay in business long enough for me to use your automation software in my future home, whenever that happens.

Bravo!

"Measure twice, then measure again. Only then should you even THINK about cutting."

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post #3190 of 3205 Old Yesterday, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aakrusen View Post
Is the denim layer behind the red panels 3/4" like the screen pieces?
Where did you get the denim stuff or what is it called?
Knowing what you know now, would you choose to denim again?
Did you have a side shot of the viewing angles for the three rows?
Is the 12" height difference between the 1st and 2nd row sufficient or should there be a taller gap (based on where your screen is)?
I think I read a post where you said you purchased 32 yards of the red GOM, was that enough?
Did that include the black GOM or was that separate?
Sorry for the late response.

There is 1 layer of denim behind the red fabric panels.
It's been a while but I ordered the denim and the company name escapes me at this moment. I know it's been asked a couple times so you will definitely find it through the search on this thread for recycled denim.
Any pictures I've taken have pretty much been posted in this thread. If you want something in particular just let me know and I can take one for you.
I went with 11 1/2" if I recall and it's been perfect for height difference between the two rows.
32 yards was enough for my space including the foyer.
I think I ordered 10 yards of black fabric. You'll obviously need to measure and estimate how much you'll need and then order extra just in case.
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post #3191 of 3205 Old Yesterday, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ezcl View Post
Finally made it through the thread!

Beautiful work, and thank you for going above and beyond in this thread, it's made reading through it very informative and entertaining.

Did you ever get a chance to run through REW, and if you did, did you make any major changes based on the results, in order to fine-tune your audio?

I also have a request: that you stay in business long enough for me to use your automation software in my future home, whenever that happens.

Bravo!

Thanks for the kind words.

I did do some REW testing and ended up adding some insulation to the front of the room in the cabinets. I started tinkering around with insulation in the columns but honestly it started getting messy with all the fibers flowing throughout the room. So in the end I really haven't changed much in the space. I'm sure there could be some improvements, but I wasn't seeing major sound differences in the space with the minor things I was doing.

Upgrading to the Atmos receiver seemed to greatly improve the results of spatial sound.

Hopefully I'll still be developing our automation software for another 15 years!
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post #3192 of 3205 Old Yesterday, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's the stained pool cue rack thanks to my father-in-law:


Learned some new techniques:
He used two brushes.
One wet one to put a base coast of stain on...then a dry brush to go over it and even things out.
A finer brush was used to get into the tighter spaces.
Then he used a sprayer to light mist or fog the spray onto the surfaces.
Then after a day, the lacquer was applied.


Few things I'd do differently:
* Sand all the parts very very smooth before even assembling.
* Make sure no glue is visible on the wood...the stain doesn't like to stick to it.
* Bring a sample of the color you want to work towards from home into the shop where you are spraying. We could have gone a shade darker, but still matches the pool table, bar and seats very well.

I can see some imperfections in my routing due to hand held routing and a cheap router. I just ordered a new router table and router and am excited to work on some other projects. Just wish I would have invested long ago in some better hardware before doing the theater...could have really used it back then.
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post #3193 of 3205 Unread Today, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
I can see some imperfections in my routing due to hand held routing and a cheap router. I just ordered a new router table and router and am excited to work on some other projects. Just wish I would have invested long ago in some better hardware before doing the theater...could have really used it back then.
I'm not even going to say 'nice work' because that's just universally understood at this point, like 'the sun will come up tomorrow'....

Which router table (and router) did you end up with because I am looking at them myself at the moment and would like to borrow your research. My own looking has steered me in the direction of Kreg, but I haven't pulled the trigger on anything yet.
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post #3194 of 3205 Unread Today, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.

After doing some research, I ended up going with the following:
* Incra 27 x 43 Routing Table
* Rousseau 20 x 40 workbench stand
* Porter Cable 75182
* INCRA Mast-R-Lift II Router Lift
* INCRA LS 25 Super System

I was close to saving some money and going with the Triton TRA001 to avoid the cost of the lift, but I think the lift would be a bit easier and I wouldn't have to reach under the table to change bits. I think with the Triton you still would have to shut off the power switch to change bits. And my eventual plan will be to enclose the router for Dust collection. I've learned over the years to spend a bit more, take good care of your tools and they should last forever. My first project may be a Keurig Table for our sunroom for my wife.

It was hard to find anyone who wasn't impress with the Incra LS Super System and it's pinpoint accuracy.

I'll probably put wheels on the Rousseau stand. I believe the locking Kreg wheels should fit. BTW, if you want to order the Rousseau workbench stand, call Rousseau direct.
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Tim the Incra was that silly one I linked you when you asked. It's nice. Probably a tad higher than you need. That's how Mario rolls. I like it. There is a DIY audio forum thread called "tool talk" that's a great place to ask. I saw Ryan just bought the Triton router that comes with built in circle jig cutter. If you are using a table just about any router will do though.

I'm in the market myself.

Trying spend a few hundred. We will see how that goes

DIY Tool Talk

I'd ask there for some specific advise. Those guys know routers pretty well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
I was close to saving some money and going with the Triton TRA001 to avoid the cost of the lift, but I think the lift would be a bit easier and I wouldn't have to reach under the table to change bits. I think with the Triton you still would have to shut off the power switch to change bits.
The Triton actually can raise the collet above the table so that you can change the bit without dropping the router out of the table.
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post #3197 of 3205 Unread Today, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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The Triton actually can raise the collet above the table so that you can change the bit without dropping the router out of the table.

Yeah. That was my understanding too. But my plan was to use a remote router switch eventually:
https://www.incrementaltools.com/Pro...ctCode=JE05010

So I think since the Triton would always be left on, you'd have to have access to it to turn it all the way off to change the bit. Definitely a minor technicality for those that want to save several hundred dollars over a router that requires a lift.
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I don't want to belabor the point so I'll let it go after this, but the TRA001 has an auto safety switch shutter which locks closed in bit change mode to prevent power-on. Obviously it's still best to physically disconect the router from the power source, but I just unplug it.
Anyway I do think the Incra lift is superior, but to your point for someone on a budget this is a good option.

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post #3199 of 3205 Unread Today, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
I don't want to belabor the point so I'll let it go after this, but the TRA001 has an auto safety switch shutter which locks closed in bit change mode to prevent power-on. Obviously it's still best to physically disconect the router from the power source, but I just unplug it.
Anyway I do think the Incra lift is superior, but to your point for someone on a budget this is a good option.
Couldn't agree more. In the end, I didn't want to have any regrets and I certainly went back and forth for quite some time before finally biting the bullet.

This is my first router table - so I have no experience whatsoever in this area. So what I went with should not be used as a guideline compared to others with more experience.

When ordering the Incra table, I was able to save $45 by not ordering the plate with it and saved an additional 10% on my first order through incramentaltools.com - so that saved me on the lift and the router. This is why I justified to myself springing more for the combo I went with. Since you have to match the lift and plate with the router, it is somewhat important to get what you want right out of the gate. Otherwise, you could end up spending more in the end trying to upgrade....or at least that was my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
Couldn't agree more. In the end, I didn't want to have any regrets and I certainly went back and forth for quite some time before finally biting the bullet.

This is my first router table - so I have no experience whatsoever in this area. So what I went with should not be used as a guideline compared to others with more experience.
I'll disagree with with this. If I had the budget, I'd buy your table all day long. In fact, I'll be over on Saturday to break it in for you. You're going to be very happy with it.
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Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
Thanks for the kind words.

I did do some REW testing and ended up adding some insulation to the front of the room in the cabinets. I started tinkering around with insulation in the columns but honestly it started getting messy with all the fibers flowing throughout the room. So in the end I really haven't changed much in the space. I'm sure there could be some improvements, but I wasn't seeing major sound differences in the space with the minor things I was doing.

Upgrading to the Atmos receiver seemed to greatly improve the results of spatial sound.

Hopefully I'll still be developing our automation software for another 15 years!
Mr Mario,

I just found your project and have begun the task of reliving your multi year journey. From the start of my reading, it looks absolutely fabulous!!

I live over in Burlington and am beginning research (and space creation) for a theater of my own. I can get a real sense of what I'm up against based on your incredible documentation. May I ask if I could impose for a few minutes of your time to hear the M&K Setup?

I appreciation any consideration,

Jeff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
The Triton actually can raise the collet above the table so that you can change the bit without dropping the router out of the table.
Hugely underrated feature is how easy it is to change bits and collets. Mine has two of those thin sheet metal wrenches you use, it's a PITA if you are doing something like raising panels or something where you keep changing bits.

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post #3203 of 3205 Unread Today, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Hugely underrated feature is how easy it is to change bits and collets. Mine has two of those thin sheet metal wrenches you use, it's a PITA if you are doing something like raising panels or something where you keep changing bits.
No experience with this product, but I've heard great things about the MuscleChuck for quick changing bits:
http://musclechuck.com/shop.html
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Originally Posted by jlcichocki View Post
Mr Mario,

I just found your project and have begun the task of reliving your multi year journey. From the start of my reading, it looks absolutely fabulous!!

I live over in Burlington and am beginning research (and space creation) for a theater of my own. I can get a real sense of what I'm up against based on your incredible documentation. May I ask if I could impose for a few minutes of your time to hear the M&K Setup?

I appreciation any consideration,

Jeff
Hi Jeff.

Thanks. I'll shoot you a PM and see if we can coordinate a time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post
Hi Jeff.

Thanks. I'll shoot you a PM and see if we can coordinate a time.

That would be fantastic!! I just called in sick for the next two weeks so I should be free to fit into your schedule

I'll look forward to the PM.

Thanks
Jeff
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