The Cinemar Home Theater Construction Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 3084 Old 01-19-2010, 08:16 AM
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Mario,

Triad speakers are very highly regarded but as I said earlier it is very subjective. I would recommend that if you decide to consider replacing your M&Ks that you listen to several brands first.

I do think you would be happier with an AT screen, even if you have to sacrifice a little in screen size. My advice would be to build the screen as big as you can and add masking panels if it is too big. The difference in price isn't as much as having to buy two screens if the first one is too small!

Placing the speakers below your screen would be a bad move IMO. Since the screen floor is already so low the sound would have a difficult time reaching the back row.

Mike

Where am I with my HT build?

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post #62 of 3084 Old 01-19-2010, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys for the "sound" advice.

Moggie - I didn't even think of that. When watching 16:9 the speakers would be really off kilter.

koach - Thanks for information on past experiences. Why does the AT screen need to be 2' off the back wall? What's the big difference if it's 1'4" off the rear wall?

baum - I'm using Lightwave3D - http://www.newtek.com

In2Photo - good points. That's not a bad idea. Worst case with a bigger screen I could just use masking panels to make it smaller.

Mario


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post #63 of 3084 Old 01-19-2010, 08:20 PM
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Hey Mario,

How about a few "cents" from an old buddy.

I would definately check out Rubens (SMX) screens. I have a 10 1/2 foot 16x9 AT screen and I would not change it for anything. I have less than 2 feet behind the screen. I put 1" of acoustic treatment on the back wall, coverd it with black GOM, and then placed the speakers on wall mounted TV stands. I did the TV stands so I could move the speakers into their "perfect" positions. It really makes a big difference to hear the dialog coming from the middle of the screen. We also sit 10' from the screen/

Also check out my theater in my sig. Near the end you will see some of the sound treatments that I used. You definately want to concern yourself with acoustics BEFORE cosmetics. If the acoustics are bad you will never truely enjoy your theater. Especially if you are using a D-box. Can you image feeling the rumbling from the D-box but not hearing it because frequencies are cancelling each other out?

Also check out Ascend Acoustics speakers. I think you might like them. I am using their 340 models in a 7.1 setup.

Joe

Starting Research for new Theater. New Theater will be 24x36x12.

The link to my previous theater build :)
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post #64 of 3084 Old 01-19-2010, 08:23 PM
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Oops, one other thing I forgot to mention. I too had a metal beam running the length of the basement. One day I acidentially hit it with a hammer and it rang like a bell all across the basement. I then went to an auto store and purchased 4 cans of really thick undercoating. I sprayed every inch of that beam. When I was done you could hit it with a hammer and it was just small thud. No ringing!!! you definately want to do the same.

Starting Research for new Theater. New Theater will be 24x36x12.

The link to my previous theater build :)
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post #65 of 3084 Old 01-19-2010, 08:30 PM
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Thumbs up on the wood treads & riser trim.

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post #66 of 3084 Old 01-19-2010, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post


koach - Thanks for information on past experiences. Why does the AT screen need to be 2' off the back wall? What's the big difference if it's 1'4" off the rear wall?

Back when I was doing mine that's what everyone was recommending. I think it was a rule of thumb for speakers that are rear ported, to ensure that they are far enough away from the wall. Rear ported speakers need to be a certain distance away from the wall that is behind them. 16 inches in your case may be enough, I don't know. My speakers are 9 inches deep so having only 5 inches between the speakers and the rear wall would have been too close.

Hopefully someone who knows more than me can chime in as to the proper distance and why.


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post #67 of 3084 Old 01-19-2010, 08:44 PM
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Beautiful renders! Can't wait till it's complete. I replied to your question in my build thread.

Regarding depth of the screen wall... you basically want there to be at least 6" of space between the screen and speakers. it's all explained in an AT screen WSR article a few issues back. The rationale for this distance was to reduce/avoid comb filtering caused by the screen.


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post #68 of 3084 Old 01-19-2010, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocoloco View Post

Regarding depth of the screen wall... you basically want there to be at least 6" of space between the screen and speakers. it's all explained in an AT screen WSR article a few issues back. The rationale for this distance was to reduce/avoid comb filtering caused by the screen.

Interesting, I only heard about it in terms of the rear ports, not the proximity to the screen. My speakers are only 2 inches away from the screen right now. May have to do some testing.


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post #69 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 06:43 AM
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I took a look at the article again and it recommends 6 - 8 inches for perforated screens. For woven screens, you can be closer up. SMX says you should put them at minimum 2" - 3" from the screen all the way up to 24". So looks like you may be okay. Either way, for stage depth, you should allot for speaker depth and spacing from the wall and then adequate spacing between the speaker and the screen.


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post #70 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 06:46 AM
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One other thing to keep in mind when planning your overall behind screen depth is the thickness of your wall treatment, if you're planning any. That can be 4" or more.

Floyd

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post #71 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Joe,
Great to have you chime in. I definitely need to chat with Ruben about his SMX screens. It's been a while since I last spoke with him. I know his products are top notch and the attention to detail of his frames is incredible.

Unfortunately that I-Beam has duct work on one side and 3 miles of cable on the other.

All in all, it looks like I'm going to have compromise and give some things up for others. Size of screen, speaker placement, aspect ratios, sound proofing, acoustics, projectors, risers OH MY. Even with a nearly empty room, it's tough to get them all right.

Spaceman,
I like the wood treads & riser trim too. I think it helps to break up the theater a bit.

pocoloco,
It appears most AT screens recommend 2 - 3" from speaker baffle to back of the screen. So I guess depending on the source, you'll get different answers. I'd be going with a woven screen if I go AT to get down to the 2". I may have to place the speaker right against the wall - compromising in order to get the bigger screen.

fotto,
The back wall is part of the foundation. So I'm thinking I'll leave a small gap to the foundation, then 2x2, then DD (5/8") & GG. I'm guessing I could then put 1" linacoustic and then the speakers.

Mario


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post #72 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 09:47 AM
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I'm not sure if you have your speakers decided but you may want to consider active speakers that have built in filters that allow you more placement flexibility.

Event Opal monitors are supposedly pretty amazing and have a large set of filters to tweak placement. They will blow typical consumer speakers out of the water in terms of dynamics and resolution. If you want to go higher end, Focal and Genelec active monitors always come to mind though there are more out there.


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post #73 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Pocoloco,

I'm going to try to utilize my M&K THX speakers since they've been bought and paid for and sound great.

I did speak with Chris over at SeymourAV today and he said that I would have not any issues with placing my speakers an inch away from his woven screen.

So I think I may have a possible plan of attack. Go with a 140" wide 2.35 AT screen. Then build the front screen wall with the flexibility (if possible) to accomodate the front L/R speakers behind or on the sides of the screen in an effort to gain a foot. As I look at the Dolby speaker guide, the front L/R speakers are actually ideal outside of the screen when seated in the back row...so not sure if one would really put them there. The speakers would still be about 20" off the wall even outside of the screen. But all in all, I think I'll end up going with the speakers behind the screen just to really get the center channel into the action. Plus going with a 140" screen a little over a foot closer to the viewer probably isn't much difference than going with a 144" wide screen set back a foot.

Now back to acoustics. How does one calculate the reflection points if the room isn't built?

Mario


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post #74 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 06:45 PM
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Those are beautiful renderings. Have you tried adding some accent colors to the columns and elsewhere? They are beautiful but too subdued. Perhaps some dark wood trim at the edges or something will give it pazazz?
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post #75 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 06:45 PM
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Mario

How about some actual photo's of the space your going to be building this rendered theater in

Scott


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post #76 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qthai99 View Post

Those are beautiful renderings. Have you tried adding some accent colors to the columns and elsewhere? They are beautiful but too subdued. Perhaps some dark wood trim at the edges or something will give it pazazz?

qthai99,
Honestly I spent all of 5 minutes picking colors thus far on the theater. I saw koach's and really liked it. So I went with that scheme until I nail down some more of the bigger items and structures in the room. Initially, I always thought I would have a dark maroon themed theater. I'm not sure I'm following your suggestion for the dark wood trim and where it would go.

W00lly,
I'll try to snap a couple photos tomorrow in the daylight. It's a walkout basement so the extra light helps when taking photos. I'll admit, it's a complete mess. You've been warned.

Mario


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post #77 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a sample rendering of 1" acoustic panels hanging on the side walls with a 3/4" gap separating them from the wall. I think it would look cool if it was floating. If I wasn't worried about sound leakage, it would be cool to put rope lighting behind each panel to provide a glow. I'm thinking 4" OC703 inside all unused columns - at least until I get around to getting some professional acoustic help.

For some reason, I keep envisioning wrought iron in this room to help make the area in between the colums more visually interesting. Something like you'd see on a railing. Even something in the middle of the acoustic panels. Just thinking out loud.

I'll need to rework the stage area below the screen. Since I've pulled the screen forward to accomodate for the speakers behind I've had to move the cabinetry forward and lost the top step. This is rendered with a 140" screen. I'd likd to plan for some type of masking system. Yet another project. While I love to automate everything, I don't want to spend thousands to move black fabric around. One thought is using something like you would put on slideout drawers and just attach blackout panels. Just takes someone to slide them in/out easily by hand. Then they slide back to the sides. Another thought was a hinged approach that folds in from the side columns. Still up in the air on this one.




Mario


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post #78 of 3084 Old 01-20-2010, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's one with a picture mat effect in the acoustic panel:

Mario


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post #79 of 3084 Old 01-21-2010, 09:16 AM
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Mario,

Check out this riser calculator. You might find it useful.

http://www.theater-calc.com/

Joe

Starting Research for new Theater. New Theater will be 24x36x12.

The link to my previous theater build :)
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post #80 of 3084 Old 01-21-2010, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

... I'd likd to plan for some type of masking system. Yet another project. ...

FYI, SMX just announced a new manual masking system.

Joe

Starting Research for new Theater. New Theater will be 24x36x12.

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post #81 of 3084 Old 01-21-2010, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Joe,

I'll need to recalculate things on the risers given my screen size keeps changing. That was one of the bonuses with the 16:9 screen - it went closer to the floor. So now my viewing distance at the bottom third has shifted up with a 2.35 screen. On top of that I need/want to keep the projector tight to the dropped ceiling and possibly build it in...depending on where things land. I did some simulated field tests in the room with my wife sitting in the front row. Doesn't work well as a test when her head doesn't go above the back of the head cushion.

Considering I'm possibly going to a false floor on the bottom now, I can have a little bit of play with the rise on the steps. Bringing me to what I hope will be a good viewing angle for front and back rows.

W00lly,
As promised here are some lousy photos of the space. You'll see my make-shift simulation theater. I asked the guys who put in my well and every other construction guy to keep everything out of the theater walls. Unfortunately, I showed up and the well guys put a pipe right into the back wall. So I'm going to have to figure out how to sound proof that area and keep it tight to the wall. But I also may want to plan to have access to that area - it's a possible source for leakage.

Funny how the photos don't quite match the vision...yet.










Mario


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post #82 of 3084 Old 01-21-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

I don't want to spend thousands to move black fabric around. One thought is using something like you would put on slideout drawers and just attach blackout panels. Just takes someone to slide them in/out easily by hand. Then they slide back to the sides. Another thought was a hinged approach that folds in from the side columns. Still up in the air on this one.

Yet another project I have planned is motorized masking. I may tackle this at the same time I try out an AT screen. Here are my plans if you want to consider it. This should be possible for a fraction of the cost of manufactured solutions.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16957900
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16972989


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post #83 of 3084 Old 01-21-2010, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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pocoloco,

I did see that thread. It's awesome what's been done. But I'm pretty sure it's over my head and personal capabilities. Although I just skimmed it. I have to check out Ruben's manual masking system. I think it's just some fabric boards that hang off the top of the screen.

Looking for some opinions on the front wall now that I "think" I've decided on a 2.35 AT screen at 140" width.

Anyone have a preference of making the portion below the screen flat with GOM fabric or the curved paneled approach?

Here are two photos:

1. GOM Fabric - Flat Front


2. Curved Panel Front with GOM Inserts
1. GOM Fabric - Flat Front

Mario


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post #84 of 3084 Old 01-22-2010, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some more reworks with the Berkline seats dropped into the plan.

LOOKING AT BACK WALL - still need to add some acoustic treatment to the wall which will hopefully live'n it up. I'm thinking I could even do a different color beside black on the door wall since it won't be visible when viewers are facing the screen. Not sure how to pull off bass traps in these corners either. Not alot of room to play with. Also anyone know if the bass traps need to go all the way up to the crown moulding?



LEOPARD CARPET - I changed the carpeting just playing around and the wife actually loved it. So it could actually go that way.


REWORKED THE FRONT STAGE - The front stage bowed out panels now stretch the entire width of the newer 2.35 screen.


LOOKING AT THE BACK ROW


LOOKING THROUGH THE ROOF


WHAT THE SCREEN GETS TO LOOK AT ALL THE TIME


BEHIND BACK ROW - Still need to figure out what type of bar I'm gonna add here. Probably a panel that looks like the one on the stage with some type of bowed grainte counter top.


VIEW FROM BACK CORNER


SHOT OF THE BACK WALL - I currently have a 36" door in the back. I'm pretty sure I can get the Berklines through a 32", but I'll need to double check. Ted - is it a good idea to use a insulated steel door for better sound isolation? The media components will either be in a half rack or I may do something more dry bar-ish with a counter top. Maybe a popcorn popper - who knows. I'm also tossing around the idea of expanding the room by 1'. That would allow me to do two doors separated by 3'. I'll have to see if closing the back wall will make it to tight for the door to swing into the room.


BACK VIEWS



Mario


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post #85 of 3084 Old 01-22-2010, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, trying to figure out how to quickly adjust the speakers behind the screen without needing to call 10 friends over to help me move the screen. Was thinking about these Gas Springs as an option attached to each side of the screen frame: http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/lg_d...aster/page/300

EDIT: Stumbled on a thread where someone tried this. Piano hinge may be the route to go.

Mario


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post #86 of 3084 Old 01-22-2010, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I came up with a concept for the back bar area that appears like it could easily fit 5 overflow viewers. I also added some more acoustic panels to the back of the room.







Comments or suggestions always welcome.

Mario


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post #87 of 3084 Old 01-23-2010, 04:35 AM
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Damn this looks nice. You are REALLY making me wish my theater was bigger now


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post #88 of 3084 Old 01-23-2010, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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koach,

I'm using a pretty wide angle in order to show the room off in some renders. So it may make the room appear much bigger than it really is.

BTW, I don't think your theater build thread showed any details of how you built your speaker grills into the columns. I know you mentioned you didn't like the velcro that you were using. I stumbled onto these magnet's but I want to make sure I don't get any type of vibration.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=329-045

They also sell some push in grill guides, but they don't seem to be too sturdy according to the site reviews:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=260-367

I'm curious how you hid the drywall cutouts?

One other thought I had was to use rubber sponge tape, (Typically used to help seal windows and doors. Then by creating a snug frame...I could squeeze it in there creating a compression fit.

Here's yet another option, but I'm afraid 2x4 framing will prevent me from using them:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...number=260-450

Mario


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post #89 of 3084 Old 01-23-2010, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

koach,

I'm using a pretty wide angle in order to show the room off in some renders. So it may make the room appear much bigger than it really is.

BTW, I don't think your theater build thread showed any details of how you built your speaker grills into the columns. I know you mentioned you didn't like the velcro that you were using. I stumbled onto these magnet's but I want to make sure I don't get any type of vibration.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=329-045

They also sell some push in grill guides, but they don't seem to be too sturdy according to the site reviews:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=260-367

I'm curious how you hid the drywall cutouts?

One other thought I had was to use rubber sponge tape, (Typically used to help seal windows and doors. Then by creating a snug frame...I could squeeze it in there creating a compression fit.

Here's yet another option, but I'm afraid 2x4 framing will prevent me from using them:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...number=260-450

I would not recommend the way I did it. It hasn't worked out well and I need to redo it when time permits. The way I plan on redoing it is to rip off the trim around it, but somehow attach the pieces of the trim to each other so that the rectangular piece for each column is essentially one piece (glue the four pieces together, brackets on the back, whatever it takes to hold it together). I would then glue or staple the fabric to the back of the trim, and then use magnets or push in grill guides to attach the whole thing to the column.


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post #90 of 3084 Old 01-23-2010, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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koach,

That's kind of what I'm working on now. The trim is attached to the speaker grill.
I'm running into a few issues because I'm trying to plan for dipole/tripole speakers - so I need speaker grills on all 3 sides of some of the columns. The trim is a little tight against the walls...so I may need to make them a little deeper.

Mario


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