The Cinemar Home Theater Construction Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 5Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 3081 Old 01-24-2010, 01:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
Air Supply's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ballwin, Missouri
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Someone has probably asked already, but what are you using to build these renderings?

Add your favorite bass-heavy movies here; http://lfemovies.pbworks.com/
Air Supply is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 3081 Old 01-24-2010, 01:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
Air Supply's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ballwin, Missouri
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Nevemind

Add your favorite bass-heavy movies here; http://lfemovies.pbworks.com/
Air Supply is offline  
post #93 of 3081 Old 01-25-2010, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
The software is Lightwave3D by Newtek for those that don't want to search back.
mcascio is offline  
post #94 of 3081 Old 01-25-2010, 09:46 AM
Member
 
aiden_is's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just curious if you use this software outside of your hobby, or if you have learned as you go with this project? I've used spacial rendering programs in the past, and the learning curve is usually pretty steep.
aiden_is is offline  
post #95 of 3081 Old 01-25-2010, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
aiden_is,

I've been using it for quite some time. All the way back to the days of the Amiga computer. Hate to date myself, but maybe around 15 years or so. I started using it for logo animations for commercials and fx. I know it's used in a lot of major films and commercials like the M&Ms and Dodge spots. It's certainly not for the hobbiest.

I use it a little for graphical work here and there, but the last big project I used it on was over 5 years ago when I designed my home with it. Really takes all the guess work and surprises out of building and it's about as close as you can get to the real thing. Was key in helping me place windows, decide on siding/brick, look of the deck, builtins, placement of tvs, kitchen layout, etc.

Here are some early renderings I did for the house:










mcascio is offline  
post #96 of 3081 Old 01-25-2010, 11:12 AM
Member
 
aiden_is's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Awesome. That's what I thought regarding your prior experience. I worked for a small builder a few years ago and used a program called Softplan, and it was a real bear to get going. Nice house btw, and I agree it is the only way to truly properly plan a construction project. Blueprints just aren't enough.
aiden_is is offline  
post #97 of 3081 Old 01-25-2010, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
I'm considering eliminating two columns from each side of the room. It's getting a little tight between one of the columns and the back row seating. Although, I still need to talk to an acoustic expert, because they could still house OC703 to help the room.

With that said, I'm trying to determine where the ideal speaker placement is. I'm assuming I should just use the location between both rows as the ideal listening environment. Although when you sit it either the front row or back row, the speakers aren't always ideal.

Any advice?

Here's a diagram of Dolby's chart centered between the two rows.


The columns are equally spaced.
mcascio is offline  
post #98 of 3081 Old 01-26-2010, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
To add to my confusion...given the larger 2.35 screen, the back row is visually the sweet spot. But as it pertains to audio, it appears the current speaker configuration is more ideal in the front row.
mcascio is offline  
post #99 of 3081 Old 01-26-2010, 12:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
mike2060's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 803
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
How wide is the screen now? And how far back is the seating?
mike2060 is offline  
post #100 of 3081 Old 01-26-2010, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
The current proposed screen width is 140"

Distance from front row viewing to screen is 10'4".
Distance from back row viewing to screen is 16'1".

All seats recline - so I think I gain a few more inches when laying down.
mcascio is offline  
post #101 of 3081 Old 01-26-2010, 01:13 PM
Advanced Member
 
mike2060's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 803
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think you are fine with your screen size and speaker distance. There isn't too much you can do as the only way to have it perfect is to put a row in the spot where the screen size and speaker separation is perfect and then decide on the rest.

The second row is close to the 38% the length away from the back wall so you will get the best bass response there (about 14' away from the screen would be nearly 38%.
mike2060 is offline  
post #102 of 3081 Old 01-26-2010, 11:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

I'm trying to determine where the ideal speaker placement is. I'm assuming I should just use the location between both rows as the ideal listening environment. Although when you sit it either the front row or back row, the speakers aren't always ideal.

Any advice?

Between the Madagascar screen shot, and the fabulous 3D modeling, I'm hooked in this thread. Great design and planning.

A few ideas to offer, having just finished my first 7.1 room with two rows, I've come to some conclusions.

a) The most serious/critical listening or watching happens solo. In the money seat--front/center. When others join, the concerns over "template perfection" are relaxed. So I attached a diagram with the Dolby template shifted to the prime seat.

b) Having had the opportunity to do some serious seat time in both rows, I've come to appreciate the extra envelopment in the rear. As a result, if I had the chance, I'd move the surrounds from their current locations, 90-deg to the front row ears, to maybe 6"-12" forward.

c) The 140" screen width gives a 60-deg viewing angle. Serious widescreen effect. In that case, I'd recommend considering a 2.40 screen so that 16x9 images don't overwhelm. Unless maybe you're an Imax fan, then go for it!

This calculator spreadsheet is real useful for checking the math. It shows that a smaller screen can also work, but then you run into the issue of the frame blocking the L/R speakers. I made my screen small enough to fit between the speakers, so it's a 42-deg view.

d) Looks like several walls/floor are concrete, which are good at keeping bass inside the room. Should enhance the room modes. My prediction is that you’ll need and want more subs. Partly for peak output, but more for improved uniformity across the seats. Might consider planning for a total of 4 subs near the 4 corners. Have a look at Fig 19 of this paper by Dr. Toole. Could consider either something like in-wall Triad subs, or whatever powered subs would fit—and pre-wire accordingly. I had rather severe bass nulls in my room, and multiple “subs” and a BassQ processor fixed it. I didn’t try multiple subs until I had the BassQ, so can’t say if I could have gotten away with just the multiple subs used alone.
LL
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #103 of 3081 Old 01-27-2010, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
mike2060,
Thanks for the reassurance. I think you're right. There are going to be compromises unless there is just 1 seat in the theater.

Roger,
Thanks for chiming in. I just had a chance to check out your theater...great build! I'll need to dive in and read the entire thread. It looks like based on your diagram I'm within the Dolby recommendation for the front row. Although tight to one side. My understanding is that those guidelines from Dolby are actually center of the speaker. I'm assuming centering within that range would be ideal - but that puts the speakers in the corners of the room - which I thought also wasn't a good idea. The fact that they offer dipole/tripole might weigh in to this as well. By keeping them where I have them I think it will help the back rows get closer to better sound as well.

I think shifting the front row speaker columns forward to 90 degrees might not be a bad idea. Then I'm still planning to run speaker wires to the columns in the back row. Allowing me to add speakers there as well and possibly run both or just one set at a time depending on whether after watching enough movies I have a preference of where my sweet spot might be and/or whether the D-Box is in use for that particular movie.

Thanks for the resources. I'm planning to run cabling/electric to all four corners of the room for possible sub placement. That should future proof me if I need to add another sub. Although, I had the M&K sub cranked yesterday and the whole house was rattling! I sure hope my decoupling of the walls solves this problem!
mcascio is offline  
post #104 of 3081 Old 01-27-2010, 10:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

It looks like based on your diagram I'm within the Dolby recommendation for the front row. Although tight to one side. My understanding is that those guidelines from Dolby are actually center of the speaker. I'm assuming centering within that range would be ideal - but that puts the speakers in the corners of the room - which I thought also wasn't a good idea.

Last point first. You may be right that dipole/tripole speakers ought not go in the room corners. So where they are currently positioned is just fine. (Mine are direct radiators, in the corners, angled into the room, and they sound as good as the side wall units.)

When I created those "speaker wedges" diagrams at Dolby, it was an attempt to allay concerns from folks who thought that the surrounds must be exactly at 110-deg, or the fronts exactly at 30-deg, no tolerance. Also, we also wanted to avoid giving the idea that if you switched between 5.1 and 7.1 playback mode, you'd need to physically move the surround speakers a foot forward. Lastly, we needed to accommodate THX, which likes dipoles at 90-deg, even for a 5.1 setup. So we stopped saying "this is the precisely optimal angle." The center of the speaker can go anywhere within the wedge and give decent results.

Having said that, there is no doubt in my mind that 90-deg is better for surrounds in a 7.1 system than 100 or 110 deg. That's been the consensus since 7.1 was introduced. As originally drawn, the surrounds in your room were slightly further back than optimal for the front row listeners.

Quote:
The fact that they offer dipole/tripole might weigh in to this as well. By keeping them where I have them I think it will help the back rows get closer to better sound as well.

The change I suggest will be immaterial to the back row. We're talking subtleties here, in the grand scheme, and once the D-Box is humming, no one will care! It's only an issue for your "solo flights."

Looks like you're well set for future subwoofer options!
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #105 of 3081 Old 01-27-2010, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Thanks Roger.

I'll move the columns around a bit to create that 90 degree's to the listeners ear.
mcascio is offline  
post #106 of 3081 Old 01-28-2010, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
I'm wondering if anyone has any experiences with GOM fabric and someone brushing up against it. I'm thinking with a 3 year old and drunk friends, that fabric below the chair rail might be a recipe for disaster. Seems like it would be easy for someones clothing to get caught on it. I'm mostly concerned with areas were it gets a little tight in the back of the room.
mcascio is offline  
post #107 of 3081 Old 01-28-2010, 07:39 PM
Advanced Member
 
koach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

I'm wondering if anyone has any experiences with GOM fabric and someone brushing up against it. I'm thinking with a 3 year old and drunk friends, that fabric below the chair rail might be a recipe for disaster. Seems like it would be easy for someones clothing to get caught on it. I'm mostly concerned with areas were it gets a little tight in the back of the room.

Before I gutted my theater and redid it last year, I had several close calls with the GOM below the chair rail. So when I redesigned it i knew there was no way I was going to give myself that anxiety again. Having a 3 year old and a relatively small dark room was a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
koach is offline  
post #108 of 3081 Old 01-29-2010, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Thanks koach.

What constitutes a "close" call?

Like you mentioned, it seems that the best place for acoustical treatment height-wise would be at ear level - which falls right near the chair rail. I'm guessing people try to make the acoustic panels somewhat removable for these scenarios. Although I may be in a very similar boat with black paint. I've got a couple dark maroon walls in the house that reveal scuffs pretty easily.

BTW, this may benefit others during the build phase. As I find more theaters and construction photos that pertain to me, I'll save them to my hard drive, then using the comment field in the photos properties, I'll copy/paste the url from which it came...which is typically the AVSForum. This makes a nice way to track down the entire thread build for reference.
mcascio is offline  
post #109 of 3081 Old 01-29-2010, 07:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
koach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Thanks koach.

What constitutes a "close" call?

Like you mentioned, it seems that the best place for acoustical treatment height-wise would be at ear level - which falls right near the chair rail. I'm guessing people try to make the acoustic panels somewhat removable for these scenarios. Although I may be in a very similar boat with black paint. I've got a couple dark maroon walls in the house that reveal scuffs pretty easily.

BTW, this may benefit others during the build phase. As I find more theaters and construction photos that pertain to me, I'll save them to my hard drive, then using the comment field in the photos properties, I'll copy/paste the url from which it came...which is typically the AVSForum. This makes a nice way to track down the entire thread build for reference.

I had fabric both below and above the chair rail, now I only have it below. The close calls were my son coming in the room with a black marker, people walking by and grazing the fabric with some object in their hands, etc.

IMO just do fabric above the chair rail. And stick to satin or eggshell paint. There's a lot of die hard purists on here that say you should only use flat paint, but I don't like the way it looks (it looks chalky and dull), and it's just not practical (if you look at it too hard it scuffs). I used a satin paint and it makes it look more like real wood and look better, and it is much more practical and durable.
koach is offline  
post #110 of 3081 Old 01-29-2010, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Thanks koach,

I guess if I go with GOM below, I'll plan for black. Yeah - I'm pretty sure I won't like a flat black paint.

I probably have more chance though of someone bumping the columns than the wall - since they stick out the furthest. So maybe that will keep them to the inside lane. My luck, they'll get caught on the leather berkline and rip that instead.
mcascio is offline  
post #111 of 3081 Old 01-30-2010, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Well - here's an attempt at trying to add 1" OC703 below the chair rail with Black GOM Fabric. It runs above the chair rail by about 1'4". Then I have the option of the tan square acoustic panel above that could either be 1" or 2".

I still prefer the look of the paneled walls over the fabric. I'm also concerned that the black drywall and GOM fabric may not play nicely together. A better look would be to stop the fabric at the chair and risk not having as good of sound.

mcascio is offline  
post #112 of 3081 Old 01-30-2010, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Here's another concept.

Went back to drywall and just acoustic panels on the walls. Added a picture frame grill to the panels to add some life to them.
mcascio is offline  
post #113 of 3081 Old 01-30-2010, 07:19 PM
Member
 
misugrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: W Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mario -
your renderings look great. The picture frame on panels are a great detail add and overall looks much better. What kind of sub(s) are you planning for?

Mike
Started the build...Theater With A View
misugrad is offline  
post #114 of 3081 Old 01-30-2010, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Thanks Mike!

I think they may seem a little too wide. They are about 3' wide so I may bring them in a bit and try 2'.

I've got an M&K MX-350 sub already that I plan to drop in the theater. Then add something else if needed.
mcascio is offline  
post #115 of 3081 Old 02-01-2010, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Can anyone confirm that first replection points on the side walls are vertically the same height as the speakers?
mcascio is offline  
post #116 of 3081 Old 02-01-2010, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
I'm still not happy with the way the acoustic treatments are foiling my original plan. So here are some works in progress.

Any votes for any of these?

CONCEPT A - Full length Acoustic Panels going through Chair Rail


CONCEPT B - Large Panel and 2 smaller below


CONCEPT C - Two panels joined at Chair rail


CONCEPT D - One inch OC703 below chair rail and black GOM Fabric with Wood Moulding. Drywall above chair rail with 1" Acoustic Panel Frames.


CONCEPT E - One inch OC703 below chair rail and black GOM Fabric with Wood Moulding. Drywall above chair rail with 1" Acoustic Panel Frames with trim.


One other theory, if I hit the first reflection point pretty good, I'm wondering if I could just get away with 1" acoustic framed panels above the chair rail and drywall below. The chair rail falls at about ear level for the back row seating. The front row is below the chair rail.
mcascio is offline  
post #117 of 3081 Old 02-01-2010, 04:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
koach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I like your renders from the previous page, but I'm biased since it looks like my HT.

I vote for the acoustical panels above chair rail only.
koach is offline  
post #118 of 3081 Old 02-01-2010, 04:59 PM
Member
 
misugrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: W Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think aesthetically concept D size w/the window pane dividers.

Mike
Started the build...Theater With A View
misugrad is offline  
post #119 of 3081 Old 02-01-2010, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
mcascio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kenosha, WI USA
Posts: 3,780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Guys - I added a concept E which is what Mike was referencing.

koach,
I'm still with you on this one. Looks-wise I love the one that looks like yours.

I may have to order some Black GOM fabric to see how well it would integrate with wood moulding on top of it. I just don't think it will have the same look as drywall.

I had another idea which may allow me to keep the original look I like - which is all drywall with panel moulding. How about a sliding (or hinged) acoustic panel? Essentially two 1" acoustic panels stacked on top of each other with a sliding mechanism to lower the front one bringing it down below the chair rail for ideal acoustic positioning. This would give me the look of the room I want with the ability to tweak acoustics of the room on the fly. Thoughts? Has anyone else attempted this?

Here's a sample of what I'm talking about where one of the panels is slid down. You essentialy end up with some 2" OC703 and 1" OC703 on the top and bottom.

mcascio is offline  
post #120 of 3081 Old 02-01-2010, 06:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post

Can anyone confirm that first reflection points on the side walls are vertically the same height as the speakers?

They are, if the listeners' ears are not higher than the speakers. Otherwise, the reflection points are somewhat higher. But you want some overlap anyway--treat an area larger than the precise reflection spot.
Roger Dressler is offline  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

Tags
Speaker Systems

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off