question about a design with floor-standing speakers within a recessed wall cavity... - AVS Forum
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Despite the objections of some, I've decided to locate my two front floor-standing speakers and the center-channel speaker within "wall cavities," hidden behind framed GOM/fabric panels. They will be front-firing speakers.

My question is this, as I have no clue about audio/acoustics -- does anyone have an recommendations as to how might be best to build these "cavities?" Should the cavities be built just large enough to house the speakers, or larger? If larger, how much larger? Should I build/line these "cavities" or "boxes" with drywall? MDF? A sound-absorbing material? Thoughts?

Thanks so much,

Steve
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Old 01-02-2010, 02:07 PM
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If you start researching "baffel walls", I think you'll get all of the answers you're looking for and more. What you are describing is not without it's design challenges, but you should be able to work around these.

Rob

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Old 01-02-2010, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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OK Rob, I'll check that out. Thanks for the info...

Steve
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, it's over 2 1/2 years later, but I'm finally moving forward on my project again -- and nearing completion. Drywall is done, now doing trim carpentry and painting, then carpeting -- and then it will be time to buy furniture and equipment.

However, this question is still on my mind. My speakers are going to sit in small in-wall enclosures. They will be floor-standing speakers, but instead of sitting visibly, in the room, beside the screen, they will be sitting hidden in this "cavity" or "enclosure" within the wall next to the screen -- with the enclosure covered by GOM fabric. Right now, the enclosure has a wooden "floor," but I haven't "walled it off" on the sides or top -- there is just fiberglass insulation surrounding the space where the speakers will sit.

I did read a bit about the baffle wall thing, but it's pretty complex and would take alot of research on my part to figure it all out. One thing I did gather is that the distance a floor-standing speaker is sitting from the wall behind it matters, because reflected sound off the wall behind a speaker can be "out of phase," so to speak, with the sound traveling directly to the listener (i.e., sound that did NOT reflect off the wall behind the speaker before traveling to the listener). Given this, it would seem to me that one way to prevent this "out-of-phase sound reflection" issue, is for me to go ahead and keep just the fiberglass insulation in the cavity surrounding the speaker (with no "wall" material, just the fiberglass). That way, only the sound traveling out of the speaker and heading directly toward the listener would be heard, for the most part, with little "reflected" sound making it out into the room (but instead absorbed by, or passing through, the surrounding fiberglass and into the open attic behind).

Does this make sense, or am I missing something?

Steve
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:57 AM
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no expert, but worked for one for 5 years, and sounds like you are on the right general path. The approach we took in these situations was to use a custom fitted layer of acoustical foam around the perimeter of the speaker, out to the wall of the recessed area to further prevent reflected sound from making it back to the listeners ears. The distance this baffle sits from the front face of the speaker may involve some experimentation. we would lay out 2'x4' pieces of acoustical foam, cut to fit inside recess, lay speakers, face down on foam, ( shim as needed to protect drivers, mark speaker positions on the floor before moving to insure exact placement) trace outline, cut slightly small to create a bit of tension. usually didn't have that big of gap to fill, so no sub frame was needed.
Sorry I can't give details on materials we used. It was a 1" thick bilayer foam 3/4" foam rubber type, 1/4" denser blacker rubber with a clear plastic membrane over the outer surface. this was the "back' side. smooth finish front and back.

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Old 08-15-2012, 05:50 AM
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Steve proceed with your plan and avoid hard surface enclosures.
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveg66 View Post

Given this, it would seem to me that one way to prevent this "out-of-phase sound reflection" issue, is for me to go ahead and keep just the fiberglass insulation in the cavity surrounding the speaker (with no "wall" material, just the fiberglass).

It sounds like you intend to use the fiberglass that is already in the wall and simply eliminate the drywall within the cavity? Is this correct or are you adding additional insulation to the cavity post-drywall. If the cavity is large enough, I would opt for the latter since any missing drywall will compromise the fire rating in that room. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that lining the cavity with a 1" layer of Linacoustic post-drywall would help reduce reflected sound.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:32 AM
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:01 PM
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Gonna throw a curve ball here...what about reflected sound along the boundary adjacent to the speaker and not just behind the speaker? Keep in mind the frequencies which have a tendency to wrap behind the speaker.

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Old 08-15-2012, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Everyone --

Thanks for the comments...this helps.

Overall -- combining the comments from the three of you, it sounds like the idea of "deadening" any sound WITHIN the cavity (to keep any "reflected" sound from making it into the room) should be my focus.

Spaceman, you are correct -- I was talking about the insulation within the stud spaces of the "cavity," or "enclosure," and just leaving it "un-drywalled" inside the enclosure. If you can picture this -- there is open attic behind my screen wall. So, what I did is I went around behind the screen wall, in the attic, and framed large "boxes" out of 2x4s, to serve as the "speaker enclosure." I installed R-13 insulation within the stud cavities of the framed "enclosure," and then on the outside of the enclosure, facing into the attic, I lined it with 1/2" foam board. Thus, from the attic side, all you see are "boxes" protruding into the attic from the back of the screen wall, enclosed by foam board and the seams sealed with expanding foam.

From INSIDE the theater room, you see a screen wall with open cavities on either side of the future screen location, and one centered above the future screen location. There is a "floor" or "base" in the cavity made of plywood, for the speaker to sit on, and then all you see looking into the cavities is the "kraft face" of the R-13 fiberglass insulation that is installed in the stud cavities.

I am not worried about "fire rating," from an "inspection" perspective, since here, in my state, the work I've done does not require permits or inspections. So, if the only reason to put any drywall in the cavities would be to "pass an inspection," I don't think it's a concern. From the feedback given, I'm leaning toward just leaving the speaker "cavities" un-drywalled, and proceeding -- as BIGmouth suggested. I could easily place more fiberglass insulation within the cavities, once I have set the speakers in -- if necessary.

Any additional thoughts?

(I will gladly take a few pics and post them, BIGmouth, if it's still not clear after my above description...)

Steve
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:21 PM
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If you haven't finished these cavities you should just rip them out, then drywall the room and start over. Build a fabric skinned skelital frame to hide all your speakers, BritinVA's build thread docments such an approcah.

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Old 08-15-2012, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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BIGmouth -- I can't do what is suggested in your pics above, due to the design of my room. If you look at the first attached image below, you can probably see where if I were to build "speaker enclosures" OUTSIDE of the walls, then the enclosure on the right-hand side of the screen (as you face the screen) would intrude out from the wall too far -- such that a person walking down the hallway toward the "doorway" into the main theater area would be looking right at the side of a speaker enclosure (as the enclosure would extend well out from the wall and into the "line of sight" as you walk down the hall). This is part of why I decided on a "flush" design for the screen wall -- with the speakers recessed into the screen wall, as opposed to enclosures extending into the room. (This room design is also why I decided NOT ONLY on not having enclosures extending into the room, but ALSO decided against floor-standing speakers sitting on the floor in front of the screen wall). Again, for aesthetic reasons, given that the right-hand wall of the hallway becomes, as it shifts into the main room, my screen wall, I felt a flush design to be preferred.

theater.jpg 56k .jpg file

GIVEN this, I'm faced with trying to do the best I can, sound-wise, with speakers inside these "cavities" embedded within the screen wall.

Here's an example of the look I'm going for (though mine will not have a stage, but instead a screen on the same "plane" as the rest of the wall, as my floor plan picture shows).

IMG_1964-vi[1].jpg 27k .jpg file

Steve
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:47 PM
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I wasn't really thinking of passing an inspection. It was more of a safety concern. I just know I would be nervous if I had missing drywall between a finished room and an unfinished attic space, since drywall plays an important role in slowing the spread of fire. If it were me, I would drywall it and address the acoustics on the finished side of the drywall. Also, be aware that standard kraft facing is flammable and should not be left exposed. You might even see such a warning right on the facing.

Also, If your goal is to reduce reflections, wouldn't you want unfaced insulation?
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Spaceman --

Unfaced insulation would be better, I agree...hadn't thought that through completely.

It would be relatively easy to go on the attic side of the wall, and install drywall around the outside of the existing foam board shell of the enclosures. I will think about what you are saying about fire danger, and consider doing that. This would also have limited effect on "sound reflection. I will also install another layer of un-faced insulation in the enclosures. Seems like this should handle the two concerns you raise...thanks MUCH for your input.

Steve
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:05 PM
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Maybe I missed it... what are your specific speakers? That information may make a big difference in optimal approach.

Some things to consider.... Placing a speaker designed for free space or semi-free space response into a cavity is going to alter the response of that speaker. Unavoidable, for a variety of reasons. Now, what I think you are asking is how yo minimize that alteration. There are three primary effects such a placement will create: diffraction effects, cavity resonances, and response shift from moving a free space design into a half space environment. This last one you simply can't avoid.

So lets consider the other two. The first is diffraction effects. That is, any hard edge near the sides of the speaker, and especially if they are even with or ahead of the front plane of the speaker, will create a diffraction of the sound which mixes with the direct sound of the speaker. This is a distortion that can't be practically be corrected. Fiberglass on such surfaces/edges will largely prevent high frequency diffraction but not perfectly, and the treatment may not extend low enough in frequency to sufficiently suppress all audible diffractions.

The second is cavity resonances. You've essentially created a complex enclosure with you speaker cabinet acting as a driver, with at least one resonance something akin to a port resonance. Likely many such resonances. Again, you might fill the cavity with fiberglass and suppress some of these resonances. Perhaps not all, perhaps not completely.

There is another alternative to stuffing the cavity... simply don't have one. This is what the baffle idea is all about. If your speaker has a flat front face (big if, but many do), build a rigid baffle that surrounds the speaker and is both in contact and flush with the speaker face, and in contact and flush with the wall. i.e., make the speaker front face become part of the wall, flush with it. The answer to "how big of a cavity" then becomes simple... doesn't matter, but as small as will fit the speaker is fine.

What affect is then left on the speaker response? Diffraction effects are eliminated, likely improved over the original design even. Cavity resonance is eliminated. You are left with the response alteration from placing a free space speaker design into half space. This results in a simple bump in low end response which is smooth and easily corrected with shelving high pass eq (or probably a broad low q parametric eq filter or two if you must). It would also be an alteration in response easily corrected by any modern automated room correction or room eq processing. Diffraction and cavity resonance, not so much.

Obviously my suggestion then is if your speaker has a flat front face, mount it flush with and integral with the wall. This would require the cloth frame to be mounted on the wall, picture frame style, instead of recessed (and preferably far from the speaker edge). Better yet, if you are clever you can create a recess only for the frame which exactly fills the recess, leaving the cloth essentially flush with the wall, but that only works if the speaker drivers are themselves flush mounted in the speaker.

If your speaker has a face design that doesn't make this possible, I would still suggest mounting the speakers flush with the wall to minimize diffraction (don't recess them back into the opening), and stuffing the cavity completely to further minimize unwanted effects. You'll still be left with half space changes, which are dealt with the same in either case.

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Old 08-16-2012, 12:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Bigus -- what a great response. Very technical, but not completely over my head. What you say makes sense. I will have to think on this. A "half solution," which it seems like would be stuffing the space with sound-deadening material (helping with the resonance issue), and then placing the speaker face as close to the "enclosure opening" in the wall as possible -- i.e., setting the speakers as far forward as I can in the opening...these things, I can do. There is no reason the speakers themselves cannot be right next to, or even touching, the GOM cloth which will cover "cavity opening" in the wood columns. It looks like, from the speakers I've considered buying, that this would be possible (they do have a flat front face FWIW). This would still place the front of the speakers themselves just a bit "behind" the wood trim pieces on the columns, but not by much. I guess this would somewhat minimize the diffraction issue, but not totally.

As for what speakers...here are the type I've considered, until I can afford something higher-end...

http://www.fluance.com/fluance-avhtb-avsssingle-2pack-7-0-system.html

Plus, this...

http://www.fluance.com/fldbposu.html

Steve
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:02 AM
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If you haven't bought the speakers why aren't you considering those designed for in wall use?
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:05 AM
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And I now wonder what is below the unfinished attic space that the speakers will be backed into. Sounds to me like there is a real possibility of turning that attic space into an infinite baffle and shaking the crap out of the rest of the house. I would DEFINITELY recommend drywalling (if not DOUBLE drywalling) those cavities.

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Old 08-16-2012, 09:35 AM
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Steve, those fluance speakers would certainly be amenable to the flush baffle mounting I suggested. But as noted above, if you don't already have speakers why not consider those specifically designed for inwall use? Avoids the half space issues and any concerns about cavity effects. You could still do a faux column in GOM fabric if you don't like the look of a factory flush grille.

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Old 08-16-2012, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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tlogan --

I didn't put my subwoofer on that wall, for that reason (sound leakage), but I hear your point...double layer of drywall it shall be, on the back of the cavities.

BIGmouth and bigus --

Please forgive the ignorance, but wasn't aware that there were speakers specifically designed for in-wall use (I KNOW there are speakers you MOUNT in the wall, but I recall back when I was designing the room, and asking questions here on the forum, that I was advised NOT to use in-wall-mounted speakers, though I can't recall the reason right now...)

Sounds like there are a specific type of speakers that are designed for my situation (sitting in a wall cavity)? Are there any that are "affordable" for someone on a budget? I'll be able to afford to upgrade stuff in the future, but for now -- the cost of finishing construction, and then the purchase of furniture, all the electronics, etc. is going to have me looking for ways to keep the cost down on some of the components/furniture, initially...

Steve
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:18 PM
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http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/iwb4lcr.html

start praying for a set of these or their big brothers on the 'bay

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Old 08-17-2012, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Weasel --

I looked at these, and I can see that there is an "in-wall" option, which could be mounted in my faux columns. Hmm...

The question now is, do I consider a re-do here, and allow for in-wall front and center-channel speakers, mounted in my faux columns, or go with the original idea, but bring someone in to help me with a "baffle wall" for those Fluance speakers...

Steve
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Old 08-18-2012, 06:37 AM
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That's one of the beauties of the Triad speaker line. Most speakers are available in both in wall and free standing styles, with designs specifically for both to yield matching sonic characteristics between the different enclosures. Don't know how much time you spent poking around the Triad site, but their surrounds are also very nice and also come in some clever in wall driver arrangements to maximize a low profile install.
It's up to you to measure your time and materials for a baffle wall plus speakers versus more of a drop in solution.
PS The Triads sound very good.

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Old 08-18-2012, 12:09 PM
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My front wall has 2" of acoustic treatments on it and the back wall has 4", so I built small boxes to bring my in-wall speakers flush with or slightly proud of the acoustic treatments (sort of turning them into on-wall speakers).

Box to house rear surrounds (Triad Bronze in-wall)
IMG_0708.jpg
IMG_0710.jpg
IMG_0717.jpg
IMG_0730.jpg

Similar box to house front LCRs (Atlantic Technology 727 in-walls)
IMG_0376.jpg
IMG_0377.jpg
IMG_0380.jpg
IMG_0384.jpg
IMG_0386.jpg

Also used the same box to hold the side surrounds inside each column
IMG_0763.jpg
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Old 08-18-2012, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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spaceman...very interesting how you did all that. Most cool. I could POSSIBLY do something similar; only problem is, those speakers may be too wide for my columns (and the columns are already "framed" and drywalled around.) Hard to tell; I may be able to accomodate the size of the L and R, not sure, but using that same speaker as a center channel speaker, not sure...I don't think I could fit it...

I'll have to check some measurements of those "surrounds" or "frames" and see what I'm looking at...hopefully I can find that at the website.

Let me ask this question (though I'm sure I can find this on the website also, I don't know enough about "matching" speakers, from an "acoustics" perspective, to feel comfortable)...if I did three of those in-wall speakers, L, center, R, I would NOT need in-walls for my rears. I planned to wall-mount the four rear speakers. Does Triad offer a small, wall-mounted "rear" speaker that would appropriately "match" (from a sound/acoustical perspective) this set of front speakers?

Steve
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Old 08-18-2012, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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weasel -- why did you say "start praying" for a set of those speakers on eBay? Are they too expensive for me to buy them from a dealer?

Steve
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:16 PM
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one speaker will run you more than that entire Fluance setup.
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh...

Thanks, BIGmouth...guess that solves that issue. Back to the original plan... frown.gif

Steve
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