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post #91 of 840 Old 01-12-2010, 07:13 AM
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As long as the rigid metal components are shielded by decoupled mass of ceiling, you won't need to. The actual supply and return for the theater would be flex, etc following best practices of soffit construction.

The soffit acting as a muffler.

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post #92 of 840 Old 01-12-2010, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Design change !!! Let me know what you think compared to my last mock up.


I like this idea as it adds the corridor onto the existing room and I dont lose any space depth wise. It does however put my rear row right under the soffit with my HVAC which makes it only 6'8" and I will have to be creative with my riser design. It may cost a few hundred more but I am ok with that due to the re dry walling and design changes in the adjacent rooms. This also makes my first row 3 feet further away from the screen making the first row 13' instead of 10' and if anyone needs bean bags in front of that it makes it easier to watch.

Ted,
My main concern with this design is how to properly seal this room for sound transfer to the others. I was going to make that back wall a stagger wall but if both sides are going to be subject to sound how does that work and does it need to be dd+gg? Also should the new hallway suggestion be dd+gg as well and a staggered wall?

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post #93 of 840 Old 01-12-2010, 06:20 PM
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Short story. Pressure valve burst on the hot water heater. Stupid Whirlpool and Lowes. Well I guess my plan for a tankless water heater just stepped up a notch. Company said it may be around $2700
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Just because the T&P valve blew off does not mean you need a new water heater {however if it is 5 years old or older it is not a bad idea} The pressure valve is designed to release water if pressure or temperature gets too high. First check incoming water pressure anything over 80PSI incoming is too high and should be remedied with a pressure reducer. Secondly If the thermostats stuck, temperature overheats and the pressure relief will blow. Thirdly thermal expansion could be the culprit, in which case an expansion tank should be installed.

Now with all that said Tankless water heaters are wonderful, at least the gas ones. Rinnai makes the best IMNHAAO (in my not humble at all opinion), you can go to their website at
www.foreverhotwater.com
Don't let them sell you one that draws its combustion air from inside the house.. $2700 installed for a Rinnai R75 or R94 is not a bad price at all.
Big investment ask questions and do not get pressured into anything.
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post #94 of 840 Old 01-12-2010, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the tankless info. I got the valve replaced for now and will do some more info on the tankless unit.

OK, If you thought I was crazy for tearing apart my theater here is theater 1.0.

This shows the electric screen down

This is what I originally built and when I got the 2.35 bug I covered it up for a bigger screen and better audio performance.

Here is all of my equipment that was behind the curtains before if your interested.



Some of you might be saying. Adam. Where the heck did you put all of that stuff. Well my wife now hates me and is ALL behind getting me to get the theater done as it is all jammed into her craft area



Tomorrow almost all of the drywall is to be removed and I really need assistance on the final plans as I hope to have this up and running in a little over a month. I am probably extending my neck on this one but I hope to get alot of help on this one. TICK TOC

Tonight I also need to decide on rear row seats and hope they make it on time, find columns, decide on carpet, and mainly if I want to make the entry hallway in the existing room or make it on the front of it. Please take a look at the earlier post with the layout.

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post #95 of 840 Old 01-13-2010, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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If you look at my previous post that is actually my theater v1.0 which I had done theater v2.0 for CIH. Now this is version3.0. What is wrong with me

Anyways I just ordered 4 Def Tech Studio Monitor 450s. I will call up John at SPC and hopefully get everything I need.

Then I need to figure out my carpet and rear row of seats. Those will take the longest to get.

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post #96 of 840 Old 01-13-2010, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
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Ted,
My main concern with this design is how to properly seal this room for sound transfer to the others. I was going to make that back wall a stagger wall but if both sides are going to be subject to sound how does that work and does it need to be dd+gg? Also should the new hallway suggestion be dd+gg as well and a staggered wall?

You mean the back area with the rack? Not completely following. Sorry.

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post #97 of 840 Old 01-13-2010, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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What I am concerned about is the fact that if I do this the load bearing wall will be exposed to sound on the front and back side of it along with the ceiling for the entry hall. This is the area I am concerned about and I would have the rack installed in that hall.

What I figured the solution was is to make almost a double stagger studded wall where the main 2x6s wouldnt touch drywall and I would frame in 2x4s on each side that do not touch each other and I wasnt sure if this was needed and if I would need to install clips and rails on the ceiling. That advice would greatly help me in determining what I need to order.

Thanks,
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post #98 of 840 Old 01-14-2010, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Demo began. Should have all drywall and the side wall studs taken down by tomorrow.

Still have not decided whether it is a better idea to add on the hallway to the back of the room yet.

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post #99 of 840 Old 01-14-2010, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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i have the majority of the demo done and have run into a question that I am hoping that someone can help with. My house is about 18 years old and has regular floor joist that are not the newer I-beam joist and because of the size of the theater room I get alot of movement from them when they are heavily walked on on the main floor or if someone runs or stomps. I don't plan to mount my drywall to the floor joists. I actually plan on taking 2x4s and going in between the joists and using whisperclips and the metal hat channel making the drywall about 1/2" below the joist but I figure if the joists are still moving I will still get the same transfer once the drywall is up. I am hoping there are easy methods to beef up the joists so they do not move as much. I was thinking of putting cross braces in between the joists to tie them together more.

PLEASE if you have experience with this let me know how to correct this.

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post #100 of 840 Old 01-14-2010, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post

PLEASE if you have experience with this let me know how to correct this.

I don't have experience with this, but it sounds like it would be worth the money to hire a structural engineer if you are seeing movement in your joists. Just my two cents...

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post #101 of 840 Old 01-14-2010, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post

i have the majority of the demo done and have run into a question that I am hoping that someone can help with. My house is about 18 years old and has regular floor joist that are not the newer I-beam joist and because of the size of the theater room I get alot of movement from them when they are heavily walked on on the main floor or if someone runs or stomps. I don't plan to mount my drywall to the floor joists. I actually plan on taking 2x4s and going in between the joists and using whisperclips and the metal hat channel making the drywall about 1/2" below the joist but I figure if the joists are still moving I will still get the same transfer once the drywall is up. I am hoping there are easy methods to beef up the joists so they do not move as much. I was thinking of putting cross braces in between the joists to tie them together more.

PLEASE if you have experience with this let me know how to correct this.

One way to strengthen the joists is to laminate them to another joist. Basically you are doubling up the existing joist. Be aware though that if you have any sagging a nice new straight beam may not line up so well with the old one.

That being said, if you are building new walls and using new ceiling joists attached to the top of the new walls you shouldn't need clips. Instead build the walls shorter than the existing joists. That should give you the space you need to stay away from the existing floor joists.

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post #102 of 840 Old 01-14-2010, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I wish it was that easy. I dont have any way to get a board that size into my basement as I dont have any windows although I wish I would have thought of that sooner as that may have lead to a possible solution. HMMMMMMMppphhhhh?!?!?!

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post #103 of 840 Old 01-14-2010, 08:54 PM
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adamm, you have a very nice room, try and post pics of the progress of your sound proof project, it will greatly help others in the community as well. My room is very similar to yours, especially the entry using the double (or french doors, whatever they're called). Unless sound isolation to adjacent rooms are not important to you, I'd say that you'd have to change the entry way to a different solution as well. I've thought about changing my doors to a sliding door that will give a better seal when closed. Seems like you're more concerned with the sound escaping to the rooms above.
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post #104 of 840 Old 01-14-2010, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Blazemaster, I am concerned of sound leakage all together. The doors are a concern to me as they are right by the stairs that go to my living room and the stairs are completely open so it is a concern to me although the doors to me are an easier change than everything I am going through right now.

Back on the floor joist movement. I did some research and think that if I can bringe the floor joists with some simple Lowes or HD bridging parts than this should reduce my bounce quite a bit rather than having to do some major items. It would probably help to sister some boards on but I think that the work it would take to get those in my basement would be too much.

Now back to the sound leaking. I was thinking that on the hallway I am most likely adding(still not final) that I would possible mount a none latching door that swings both ways to create almost a enclosure before leaving the theater rather than just leaving an entry opening. What does everyone think about this?

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post #105 of 840 Old 01-15-2010, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
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The theater is roughly 23x19. I will take exact measurements as I do an overhead floor plan.
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Adam.. throw some additional photos up of the floor system when you get the drywall removed..

Based on limited info so far.. your room is 23 ft long.. and the information I can gather from the picture above is that they ran the joists parallel to the length...(although it does look like they sistered the joists)

Its hard to believe that they would have built it this way because this exceeds the defelction limits for nearly all dimensional lumber by more than just a small margin. (using machine graded 2x12 on 12" centers could have gotton "Close" to the 360 deflection limits)

Did they head off the joists (shown in the picture above) at a beam in the ceiling somewhere, Then change the direction of the floor system to run perpendicular to the room length? The soffit down the left side in the picture below suggests the joists are headed off at the right side of the fireplace otherwise the mechanicals would likely have been in the joist cavity....

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.

Bridging can help.. you can also be selective on sistering additional supports without needing to get 20' lumber in your basement. (particullarly in areas where they cut to run mechanicals)

Throw up some additional pictures of your exposed floor system, its hard to "guess" whats going on up there..and difficult to help with suggestions...

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post #106 of 840 Old 01-15-2010, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Can do. I will put up some pics tonight to show my concerns. The joists do run from back of the theater to the front and I would really like a solution that does not involve sistering boards as I am inexperienced and it will be hard to get anything longer than 8 maybe ten feet long as I can only get 8 feet drywall down there due to my stairs and lack of a window. The back wall is load bearing if that helps. I didnt see any areas that they cut for mechanicals that stood out but I havent inspected it extensively yet. Yesterday was a rough day for me Thanks for everyones help so far.

If I am going to bridge the joists I think I will use boards rather than metal straps as I think the straps only work for 16 oc studs or greater and I am thinking that the wood bridges may help to reduce my floor squeks.

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post #107 of 840 Old 01-15-2010, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
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The joists do run from back of the theater to the front

Hard to believe it would have passed with the 23ft span.. and no other beams front to back.
Does it appear that a previous owner might have take out a support beam, or bearing wall, somewhere in the room length when the basement was finished? Possibly turning 2 smaller rooms into a larger room?

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post #108 of 840 Old 01-15-2010, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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It doesnt look like that is the case. It is more like 21.5' though if that makes any difference. I'll take some measurements and some better pics. I always knew it flexed some as I could tell from the living room above but it seemed like alot more than it should when I got the drywall done. I highly doubt that it did not pass the requirements due to the edition it is in but wierder things have happened. Maybe I'm better off running some 10' long boards and sistering them into the center 10 or so joists along with bridging them.

Would it be beneficial to sister a 2x6 onto a 2x12 or should I move up to a 2x8 or even a 2x10?

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post #109 of 840 Old 01-15-2010, 11:45 AM
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I'm no engineer, but I'd say either go with full 2x12's, attaching them with deck screws, then two lag bolts every 5ft or so depending on the length of boards you can get into the room, then attach the ends to the outer wall for more support. OR put a beam in the middle of the room going across the joists, with support polls at each end. I would think the latter is closer to code, but it might screw up projector placement.
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post #110 of 840 Old 01-15-2010, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, Here are two pics of the exposed joists. The guy helping me told me 12oc but it is actually 16oc but varies it seems from joist to joist. They are actually already sistered and are dimensionally 1.5"x11" and joined together as one joist. So that would lead me to think that I should just bridge them together. The entire basement runs the same direction and they do not change direction. This also shows how they ran lines for the living room. I think I may change these metal ducts for the flexible ducts while its open. Any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I think that if I run bridge boards every 3' down the entire run with 2x8s or maybe 2x6 lumber. Any suggestions other than this. I was thinking that since they are already sistered that doing another board would probably not help as much.



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post #111 of 840 Old 01-15-2010, 07:34 PM
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I caught an episode of Holmes on Homes tonight. They had a similar problem to yours with regards to the floor. Mike added 3/4" plywood to each side of the joist and glued and screwed them together, overlapping seams on opposite sides. He said that this made the joists approximately 5 times stronger.

Now in your case you already have the joists laminated so I think I might try the bridge method as well.

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post #112 of 840 Old 01-15-2010, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Any ideas for bridging around the air ducts? I was thinking of making almost an I-beam bridge to go around the ducts and still keep its strength. Maybe thats crazy.

On a side note I have received several items in the past two days. Thanks to Ted and John at Sound Proofing Company as I got my remaining shipment of GG and clips in less than 24 hours. I also got the Def Tech studio monitors in along with my rack pull out rail extensions and a rear electrical plug strip that runs almost the entire length of the rack.

This weekend I hope to finish the demo and do a temp move of my equipment. I would just tear it down but it actually runs every tv in my house and I think my wife went through shock when I told her she would have to use more than one remote if I set the stuff upstairs. LOL (Since I use Control4 for all of my controls). I am also hoping to pick out the carpet and possibly pick up some lumber and start up some framing. If I dont start framing I am going to tear up the tile that will be in the new hallway in front of the theater. I also had an idea to have a domed ceiling in this hallway with rope lighting and a cloud mural on it. I should be able to do this with ease LOL

Keep the help and suggestions coming as it really helps my creative juices flow.

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post #113 of 840 Old 01-15-2010, 09:41 PM
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When you say the joists "move", are they moving on the horizontal axis(side-to-side) or the vertical axis(up & down)?
If they're moving in the horizontal, you need to put bracing between them.
The most solid would be dimensional lumber, not cross bracing.
Make sure they do not contact the subfloor above as this could induce new squeaks.
Make them flush with the bottom of the joist and as an extra aid, put Liquid Nails on the ends that get nailed\\screwed.
If your getting flex in the vertical axis, do as someone mentioned above, glue and screw\
ail plywood to one side of the joists to stiffen them up.
Use screws or nails long enough to go through all of the lumber.
Personally, I would also replace the metal ducts with well insulated, good quality flex ducting.
Those metal ducts pick up vibration and act as a conduit for sound.

 

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post #114 of 840 Old 01-16-2010, 08:01 AM
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Adam.. Looks like you have plenty of room to work, the lack of mechanicals will make any modifications far eaiser. I'll echo some of the suggestions already made for improving the performance of your floor system, and throw in a couple of other options... Just depends on what lengths you want to go to..

Many of the same principals for soundproofing also apply to improvements in your floor and the "Bounce" you feel.. like mass, dampening and stiffness.

Ill throw this out quick before talking about your joists, just for something to keep in mind for the future..If you ever decide to change the flooring above this room, and you can stand and additional 3/4 inch, I would throw down an additional layer of T&G perpendicular to the original decking with a layer of GG in between.. this will help tremendously in further reducing "Bounce" and any impact noises in or sound out of the theater.

Although deflection and bounce are 2 different things, stiffness of the members impact both. So the goal is to increase the stiffness and deflection is a means of measuring this.. If I was looking at this, I would check to see the amount of deflection the joists have settled into under the current static load.. Eaisly done by pulling a string along the bottom side of the joists and measuring the deflection or "Sag" at midspan. the minimum IRC codes for living areas is L/360 and this would allow ~ .75 max, but in the real world this could still be a very bouncy floor and meet all codes. So assume we want a stiffer floor and go with an L/480 for deflection. This means we would want to keep the the "sag at midspan" under .5375 or basically a 1/2".

If the measurements were more than this 1/2" (particullarly on the spans down the middle of the room). Then I would seriously consider Supporting or "Jacking" up the joists close to midspan before doing any retrofitting..
Im not advocating a permanant post and beam(although a definate fix to the bounce issue) becasue I understand you are already concerned with height, but this is temporary while you make the improvements to your floor.

Note: depending on the amount of deflection your seeing and how much the joists have taken a "Set" this may need to be done over a period of time.. ie jack them a little at a time and let them set, then jack a little more.. let them set.. etc.. etc.. how much you move them at a time and how long they set will again be a function of how severe they are sagging now.. you'll need to make that call as you go.. you can continue to use the string along the bottom cord to see when your where you want to be. (I would reevaluate this if i had a tile floor above)

Now assuming we removed most or all of any sag that is present.. the first thing i see is (or dont see) in your pictures is that when they put the double joists in they didnt nail them in any manner that would be considered "Sistering" by normal standards.. this is typically done by nailing either 2 or 3 rows of 12-16D nails on 6-8" centers (typically 3 rows for 2x10 or wider) for the length of the joist. Even 2 rows on 12" centers would be an improvement .. If this is already done, and I just dont see them in the photos then disregard.

this lack of fastners probably contributes a signifigant amount to the squeaking you hear as the joists flex and move against each other..
(Ideally you would have also put construction adhesive between the joists)

As long as I was going through and adding the nail pattern to the joists, I would rip down some 3/4" Plywood just shy of the current joist depth and glue and nail it to the sides of the joist as IN2 mentioned. The minimal cost of the ply makes this an attractive retrofit.. you dont need to do this the full lenght of the joist but I would consider the middle 12ft as a min.. (alternating a 4' and 8' pc) you also dont need to do every joist, but the more the merrier.. every thing you do will add mass help stiffen your floor and reduce bounce.

Next I would use solid block Bridging at a minimun of the 1/3 span points, I would cut these from 2x10's with the goal of getting them to fit as tightly as possible within reason Try to avoid lumber with much moisture because you dont want shrinkage later to cause squeaks, it will be harder to nail but keeping the blocking in a straight line is better than staggering them, you can use construction adhesive as Milt said to help keep future squeaks to a min. This will help stiffen by transfering some of the loads to neighboring joists.

Another technique to stiffen the floor is to use metal strapping on the joists.
if you do this you want to do it before the blocking/bridging and while your floor is supported with the temporary jacks.. I looked today but couldnt find a picture of what I'm describing.. Using strapping like the simpson strong tie CS18 or CS20 you basically start the strap on an "Upper" end of the joist.. this strap then wraps down around the joist crossing the bottom at mid span and back up to the Upper opposite side of the joist at the other end.. critical factors when applying the strapping would be the size/type of fastners and making sure to keep the strapping tight aganist the joist as you go. What this does is help transfer some of the tension loading from the bottom and middle to the top and ends of the joists..

Sorry about the ramble ... you have alot of options to choose from.. some or many may consider it over kill, but probably what I would do hope this helps.

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post #115 of 840 Old 01-16-2010, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I am going to go with somw plywood ripped down to size and glue,screw, and bolt them together. Then add a solid bridge to them also. What I dont know how to do is to bridge and still allow the duct work to make it through the joists. Any suggestions?

Would bridging alone help much at all?

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post #116 of 840 Old 01-16-2010, 05:49 PM
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What I dont know how to do is to bridge and still allow the duct work to make it through the joists. Any suggestions?

in the spaces with the ducts, just fit what you can above and below even if its just a 2x4
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Would bridging alone help much at all?

Sure it will help.. but Its hard for anyone to tell if the bridging alone will solve the issue.. how bad is the "Bounce" does it rattle things on the tables when you walk by or vibrate pictures on the wall? If it has bothered you in the past, now is the time to fix it before you put up your new ceiling. Maybe somone will chime in on an eaiser option.

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post #117 of 840 Old 01-16-2010, 06:18 PM
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Maybe somone will chime in on an eaiser option.

Well....if you could get a structural engineer to come over and peek at it I bet the visit fee would be worth the advice. It ends speculation, provides a direct correction path, and most importantly you gain peace of mind for you and your entire family (including the wife ), not to mention any future owners of the property.

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post #118 of 840 Old 01-16-2010, 06:54 PM
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bridging helps a lot!

by locking the joists together you allow both joists to pick up the dynamic load of walking. Instead of bearing down on one joist at a time it is transfered to all connected joists. if you bridge the entire floor, all (even if just a small amt) of the load is spread accross all connected joists.

sister some 3/4" ply to one side and bridge with solid members every 4'.

to avoid the squeek on the floor caused by bridging add a bead of subfloor glue to the top of each bridge before hammering it home.

for the area's where you have duct work, you could bridge using engineered wooden i-beams with holes cut in the centere (allowed as per manufacturer).

also, a double drywall ceiling helps as well, as this further connects them all together. My living room floors were pretty bouncy until we finished the basement. we only did a single layer of Drywall on the basement ceiling but the bounce is just about all gone now.

good luck.
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post #119 of 840 Old 01-16-2010, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Whew!!!! What a long night. I got all of the components transfered to the rack that run the rest of the house. My wife should be quite happy to wake up and be able to watch a movie or watch tv. All of my tvs run of this area with a video switcher and control4 setup. Everything is running great except I riped out a hard wired rs232 for one of my dvd changers so I need to figure out how that goes back in. I am too tired to hook the camera up and load pics so Ill leave that for tomorrow. I forgot how much it sucks to hook up all of those wires to the video switcher. I wish I could do what I do with component with hdmi. It sure would simplify things.

On the floor joist. Upon further inspection these joists that look sistered are not. They are just next to eachother. I think it would be in my best interest to nail,screw, and bolt these puppies together and see where that gets me. Im not sure why they did it that way.

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post #120 of 840 Old 01-17-2010, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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OK here are some pics. First up is the framing of the rack enclosure with the rack in it. Even though they send directions with this thing it took longer and it was harder than expected. You can also see the rail extensions. I wish I had the extensions before I framed the rack as I wanted in down lower and could have except the instructions say no lower than 3". I have it 3" and can put a 2x4 at the end of the extension and it is almost exactly level.


This is all of the old wiring that I had to decipher and put into the new rack. What a mess and how did I ever keep that straight let alone install it originally.


Here is the sloppy but functional rack setup. Had a few wiring snafus but I'll get them corrected.


Lastly I went with my wife and kids yesterday to look for some carpet possibilities. We really like the second one however the carpet place told me it would be $5200 plus tax for install. This is not even considering the rear riser. Am I that cheap or does anyone else think that spending over $5k for one room of carpet is absolutely ridiculous. There was another one there that was almost like this one but not as nice to me and thought it would be an alternative but it was a few dollars more per square foot than this one. I think I will take the name around and see how much it is at other places. The others are only going to be around 2k. Man I really like the others



What I dont like about options 1 and 3 is the fact that they are pretty rough in my opinion.

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