The blackest, most flat paint. Period. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 165 Old 01-17-2010, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Though this was briefly mentioned in a thread in the DIY screen section, I thought I would share my experience here, since no one commented on actually using it.

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Rosco Supersaturated Velour Black ( # 6003 ).

First, I have tried numerous paints from several manufacturers ( Benjamin Moore, Behr, Glidden, Kilz, and a few others). I specifically requested the blackest formulations possible. At best, they were a chaulky black, with varying levels of sheen.

This paint is substantially different from the others. It is designed for, and has an excellent reputation in, theatrical and television production. What seperates it from the consumer brands is the type and amount of pigment. There is an extraordinary amount of artist grade pigment mixed into the binder. So much so that using the paint without dilution is a mistake. Rosco recommends a minimum dilution of 1:1, though my painter settled on a little less than that after the first coat, more like 3/4 gallon water to 1 gallon of paint.

The painter was initially skeptical because the paint seemed so thin after being diluted, but when he started cutting in he commented on how the paint obliterated the grey primer underneath on the first pass of the brush. I've done a bit of painting in my time, and I know how hard it is to paint dark colors, even over a grey primer. Clearly, the amount of solids in this paint was much higher than 'normal' paints.

We put on 3 coats, not because of coverage issues, but because brush marks contrasted very slightly against the areas rolled on. It was minor, and I would've been fine with it, but the painter was looking for perfection.

The end result was a true 'black hole'. All paint has some degree of reflectance, but I've never come across a paint as flat as this. It's like the room is coated in coal dust.

I don't know how to quantify just how black and flat this paint is, but when looking at the wall, with a bare 60 watt light bulb 8 feet from the wall ( bulb behind me), the wall is nearly pitch black. It's like a light sponge. It's as if the wall is covered in very dark black fabric (thought not quite black velvet). When the light is off, with early evening light coming through multiple windows, the walls and ceiling disappear.

With the shades drawn, even with some minor sources of light in the room from various electronics, and a light colored carpet, it's like standing in space.

So, to sum this up, here's my take on those looking for the blackest, least reflective paint you can find:

1) Use a dark primer (we used Glidden Gripper, in grey).

2) For ceiling and soffets this is a no brainer. It doesn't get any better than this.

3) For walls, it depends. I don't have kids or unruly guests, nor is the room 'multipurpose'. I'm not too concerned about what the room looks like in full light, though it looks great right after painting, even in full sunlight, but that will change as the scuffing that all very flat paint is prone to builds up. In anything but full light however, scuffs disappear into the inky blackness. Also, I've discovered that the wall can be gently wiped with a black t-shirt with no scuffing, and in fact removes scuff marks.

4) If you can spray, you'll get away with using much less paint (1 coat is not out of the question), since multiple coats won't be needed to hide roller and brush marks.

5) Despite the $45 per gallon price, bear in mind that you have to dilute it, making the real price closer to $25 per gallon.

I considered using a 'dead flat varnish' to protect the walls from scuffing, but my understanding is that dark colors may become milky, so I passed. I'm done experimenting for now (I'll leave it to someone else). Frankly, it will cost me less than $125 including paint to have another coat put on the walls(the ceiling won't need it), and I'm willing to have that done every year if necessary. The light control, complete elimination of reflections, and improvement is the projected image make it worth it to me, though perhaps not for everyone.

I hope someone out there will be able to benefit from my experience with this stuff.
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post #2 of 165 Old 01-17-2010, 03:24 PM
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Thanks for the write up GlowingGhoul. I know they're subjective, but do you have any pics you could post, possibly comparison shots to other brands you mentioned for reference? Also, how about a link back to the DIY Screens thread you mentioned?

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post #3 of 165 Old 01-17-2010, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I just noticed that it's blacker than the black border around my 120" Elite Cinetension2 screen. I'd say that's pretty black!
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post #4 of 165 Old 01-17-2010, 05:05 PM
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Is this something that HD or Lowes carries?
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post #5 of 165 Old 01-17-2010, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterkit View Post

Is this something that HD or Lowes carries?

Look here: http://www.rosco.com/US/retail/index.asp
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post #6 of 165 Old 01-17-2010, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I ordered mine online at www.bmisupply.com . $46.11 per gallon. 3 gallons cost $25 to ship (to NY) and got it the next day. Actually, I'm not sure you can order directly from the site, I called the 800 number.

The closest retailers to me didn't have it in stock, so make sure to call.

Oh, and one other thing, 2 of the 3 cans were labled 'Deep Color', which is a different line of Rosco paint, but the paint code ( 6003 ) and name (Velour Black) were the same. I checked with Rosco, and they said it was just an error in labeling from the manufacturer. As long as the paint code is 6003 it is the correct 'Supersaturated' type.
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post #7 of 165 Old 01-17-2010, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlowingGhoul View Post

I ordered mine online at www.bmisupply.com . $46.11 per gallon. 3 gallons cost $25 to ship (to NY) and got it the next day. Actually, I'm not sure you can order directly from the site, I called the 800 number.

The closest retailers to me didn't have it in stock, so make sure to call.

Oh, and one other thing, 2 of the 3 cans were labled 'Deep Color', which is a different line of Rosco paint, but the paint code ( 6003 ) and name (Velour Black) were the same. I checked with Rosco, and they said it was just an error in labeling from the manufacturer. As long as the paint code is 6003 it is the correct 'Supersaturated' type.

How timely... Thanks GlowingGhoul! We just finished up drywall and it's time to start some painting. I am only using it on the ceiling. I think I am going to spray.... especially since it's diluted. My sprayer works better when it's not thick. Overspray at this point won't hurt anything. I'll let you know how it looks...

I just ordered mine from Rose Brand http://www.rosebrand.com/product815/...2%2bTest%2bKit
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post #8 of 165 Old 01-18-2010, 02:01 PM
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Thanks OP! I bought a gallon and quart to repaint my screen wall and ceiling. Looking forward to the results!!

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post #9 of 165 Old 01-18-2010, 03:12 PM
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Awesome! I was looking for a black paint for my doors and trim. I just ordered a gallon.
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post #10 of 165 Old 01-19-2010, 04:03 AM
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With a 1:1 ratio, how many square feet is a gallon covering? Assuming a gray primer...
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post #11 of 165 Old 01-19-2010, 09:30 AM
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Anyone else have any opinions on this paint besides the OP?


I'm hoping to paint my ceiling, half of my side walls (front half) and the front wall with the stuff. I'd probably need 3-4 gallons for good coverage, so I'd rather not drop the $150 unless I knew it was the best.

--Drew


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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1243820

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post #12 of 165 Old 01-19-2010, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew_V View Post

Anyone else have any opinions on this paint besides the OP?


I'm hoping to paint my ceiling, half of my side walls (front half) and the front wall with the stuff. I'd probably need 3-4 gallons for good coverage, so I'd rather not drop the $150 unless I knew it was the best.

My paint should arrive next week. I'll won't be painting till the last weekend in January. I'll be happy to report back at that time.

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post #14 of 165 Old 01-21-2010, 08:01 PM
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I've been buying/trying a lot of different dark flat paints lately and what I thought was the best was Benjamin Moore Collection F215-80 Flat Black, which is a factory tinted black using powder. This gives it a deeper shade of black than liquid tinted @ stores. However, it still has that "Chalky" look to it that everyone refers to, but the level of reflectivity is great (very very flat paint). I was also about to try BM's "Ulti-Matte" paint next. Then I came across this thread....

I'm thinking about giving Rosco's paint a try, but the fact you have to dilute it worries me. That and I'd be rolling the paint myself. I'm curious to know how easy/difficult this stuff is to work with, and how well it covers imperfections? How does the final finish compare to more expensive "high-end" paints like Benjamin Moore Collection? I absolutely loved working with BM Collection paint, and the end result is fantastic in terms of finish.

As for diluting, where would I have this done? Would the supplier be able to dilute when I pick it up? It would be very very helpful if you could post some pictures of your room with the Rosco paint, and a comparison shot would be even better (but unlikely I know).

Thanks.

*EDIT* I see in another thread it's mentioned that the Rosco Supersaturated Black Velour has a reflectivity rating of 2.69%. Benjamin Moore Ulti-Matte is supposedly 0% (but again, won't be as 'inky' as Rosco from what I've gathered in these threads). Any insight on this? Has anyone tried both? OP? Also, the type of light I'm looking to have absorbed is from a direct-view flat panel (PRO-141FD), does this change anything? I'd imagine an FPJ would fling far less light on the side walls? *EDIT*

Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.

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post #15 of 165 Old 01-22-2010, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I've used BM F215-80 Flat Black, and it's not as dark as the Rosco. I didn't bother trying Benjamin Moore Ulti-Matte after the paint dealer painted a sample on a card for me, and I could see it wasn't as black as the 215-80. As to the difficulty applying, I didn't do it, but the painter didn't complain (though he did a third coat to elliminate the differences between the cut and rolled areas). He felt the initial 2 coats at 1:1 dilution made it too thin, and reduced the ratio for the third. We used a large bucket and tap water for dilluting, it's nothing special or difficult. Just mix well.

As to the finish. It has a very nice rich fabric like look to it, really quite different from other flats I've used. *HOWEVER - it scuffs very easily* (though touch ups are easy and look good, keep a small roller handy). In terms of hiding wall defects, I had a lot of holes in the sheetrock for wiring, which were spackled, and there is no sign of them. Flats are good at hiding in general, and this paint is no exception.

I'll try to get some photos, but it's too late for 1 on 1 comparisons since the painting is complete, and I hadn't really thought of it at the time.

The edges of the 120" screen are within 3 feet of the side walls, and the HD80 is a light cannon. I no longer have any reflections from the walls. I don't know how your flat panel campares in light output.
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post #16 of 165 Old 01-22-2010, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterkit View Post

With a 1:1 ratio, how many square feet is a gallon covering? Assuming a gray primer...

1 gallon at 1:1 is about 900 Sq ft. Normal paint is 450 Sq ft. to the gallon. Assuming a 50/50 it's 2x.
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post #17 of 165 Old 01-22-2010, 03:17 PM
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Just got back from picking up 2 Gallons of the Rosco SuperSat Black Velour.
Thanks to everyone for the info in this thread, specifically GlowingGhoul, I'd have never even found out about this paint were it not for you!

Now... with regards to prepping... I've already got a flat "Black Bean Soup" color (very very dark brown-ish) on 2 of the walls I'll be painting, and then a single wall with flat Black F215 80 from BM. Ceiling is flat Charcoal/Grey.

Is it okay to just paint over these surfaces with the Rosco Supersat? I have some left-over Black F215 80 that I might use to paint all surfaces black in preparation for the Rosco Supersat, that way it should be the absolute blackest it can be. Were your walls previously painted GlowingGhoul? Or were you working from bare/primed drywall?

The guy @ Rosco tried to sell me some of their special black primer, but @ $40/gal for primer, I passed (that and I have a crapload of the SuperSat for the amount I'm painting, so I can do 3-4 coats at least). Plus my walls are already very dark.

Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.

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post #18 of 165 Old 01-22-2010, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I primed because the the room was 'builder beige' on all but one wall, which was a checkerboard of black samples.

Since you're not trying to cover light colors, and what you've got is already darker than the grey primer, I would just go for it. Even though you have different colors on the walls, by the 2nd coat I don't think the underlying color will make a difference.

Good luck!

PS: Go easy with the dilution, since you can't undilute, but can always add more water.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlowingGhoul View Post

I primed because the the room was 'builder beige' on all but one wall, which was a checkerboard of black samples.

Since you're not trying to cover light colors, and what you've got is already darker than the grey primer, I would just go for it. Even though you have different colors on the walls, by the 2nd coat I don't think the underlying color will make a difference.

Good luck!

PS: Go easy with the dilution, since you can't undilute, bit can always add more water.

Well they are different colors right now, but I'm going to use up the rest of that F215 80 Flat Black from Benjamin Moore to act as a sort of "primer" to get a very dark base coat to work with on all surfaces, I have it laying around, I might as well put it to use!

I meant to ask you, what did your painter use as a dilution ratio for the final coat? Was it 0.75:1? I'll most likely use whatever he used on your final coat, and I'll test diluting in small quantities first to make sure it's good.

Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.

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post #20 of 165 Old 01-22-2010, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it was approximately 1/2 to 3/4 gallon water to 1 gallon paint (I wasn't watching closely).
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post #21 of 165 Old 01-22-2010, 11:01 PM
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After a very quick "test-spot" on my F215 80 wall, I think I may not dilute the SuperSat at all if possible . It's not as dramatic a difference as I was expecting, but keep in mind this is just one coat done with a small paint brush and only about 2.5"x2.5". I would imagine with all walls done with 3-4 coats the difference would be pretty huge.

Does diluting it lessen the depth of black, or the the flatness (lack of reflectivity)? If I do end up diluting it, I don't think I'll do it much, 1/4:1... maybe 1/2:1.

I see what you mean about the look of the paint though, it's crazy how much this looks like real velour . There is literally zero reflectivity as far as I can see!

Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.

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post #22 of 165 Old 01-23-2010, 01:26 AM
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I just ordered a quart. I'm putting up a star ceiling, 10X13. The panels will be PEPP, expanded plastic, recommended by Bryan Pape. They come in a dark charcoal, and I've tried spray painting them flat black. I wasn't too happy with the sheen, so I'll give this a try. I'm guessing I'll mount the panels on the ceiling with short fibers sticking out and roller the whole ceiling, then cut the fibers back. Any opinions on this plan? I'll try to give an update when I do this.
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post #23 of 165 Old 01-23-2010, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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The F215 80 was the second most black/low reflectance flat paint I tried, BTW.

The 'velour' effect of the Rosco is pretty dramatic when the entire room is painted with it. Frankly, it's the first room I've seen painted flat black that doesn't look like some crappy goth dorm room when daylight is coming in through the windows.
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post #24 of 165 Old 01-23-2010, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepsky4565 View Post

I just ordered a quart. I'm putting up a star ceiling, 10X13. The panels will be PEPP, expanded plastic, recommended by Bryan Pape. They come in a dark charcoal, and I've tried spray painting them flat black. I wasn't too happy with the sheen, so I'll give this a try. I'm guessing I'll mount the panels on the ceiling with short fibers sticking out and roller the whole ceiling, then cut the fibers back. Any opinions on this plan? I'll try to give an update when I do this.

Be careful if you roll over the fiber-optic fibers! Hard bends damage them and they don't transmit light as well or they break off alltogether.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black banshee View Post

be careful if you roll over the fiber-optic fibers! Hard bends damage them and they don't transmit light as well or they break off alltogether.

+1

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post #26 of 165 Old 01-24-2010, 04:31 PM
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Thanks for the heads up. I was planning on just 3/8" sticking out with a soft roller. Will this be OK, or should I rethink? Thanks.
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post #27 of 165 Old 02-01-2010, 06:39 PM
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Just started trimming my ceiling with the Rosco SuperSat Velour Black. I must say... I'm kind of disappointed so far. It's definitely not darker than the Benjamin Moore F215 80 Flat Black, and might actually be lighter in some cases. This is with only 1 quart water to 1 gallon paint.

I'm still getting the chalky, ashy look. So for now... kinda disappointed. Will post with more impressions once I've rolled the entire ceiling. If the ceiling doesn't turn out right I'm not even going to bother rolling the walls with this stuff.

Cheers!

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post #28 of 165 Old 02-01-2010, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepsky4565 View Post

Thanks for the heads up. I was planning on just 3/8" sticking out with a soft roller. Will this be OK, or should I rethink? Thanks.

Should be fine, just be very gentle

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post #29 of 165 Old 02-01-2010, 07:11 PM
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Thanks for the continued updates. I'm planning to use the Rosco paint as well, so this thread is very interesting to me.

I have a local Benjamin Moore retailer nearby, so I might stop in to get a sample can of the F215-80. My guess is that even though it might not be coal-black, it might be 99% of the way there and would probably be good enough. Besides, I love their paints and it might be better getting it locally with less hassle if it's even CLOSE to the Rosco.

--Drew


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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1243820

Started: 2/20/10
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post #30 of 165 Old 02-01-2010, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew_V View Post

Thanks for the continued updates. I'm planning to use the Rosco paint as well, so this thread is very interesting to me.

I have a local Benjamin Moore retailer nearby, so I might stop in to get a sample can of the F215-80. My guess is that even though it might not be coal-black, it might be 99% of the way there and would probably be good enough. Besides, I love their paints and it might be better getting it locally with less hassle if it's even CLOSE to the Rosco.

If you do get a sample, try to make sure it's not Enamel. I was buying quarts and gallons and the quart cans were Enamel, the gallon cans were apparently a newer, revised mix. The Enamel quart cans were labeled "Black F215 80 Interior 100% Acrylic Enamel" and the gallon cans were labeled "Black 215 80 Interior Acrylic Latex Paint.".

The guy @ Benjamin Moore told me the newer mix is better and is also more "green" with the VOC etc. I ended up having to mix them together for one coat of my ceiling, which was okay, it worked fine.

I compared both finishes... couldn't really distinguish a difference between the two. The Latex might have been just a HINT darker.

From what I could tell the Enamel was slightly lighter in tone and thicker than the Acrylic Latex (in liquid form in the can). According to the cans, seems the Enamel dries quicker and from what I was told @ the store, enamel can tend to be slightly more durable. Perhaps you can inquire more about this when/if you go if any of this matters to you. I wouldn't read too much into it though, the differences were pretty negligible.

One thing you may want to consider is the price. The BM will be more expensive and you'll most likely need more of it than you would of the Rosco due to diluting it (also would depend how much you plan on diluting). From what I can tell so far, the BM is an easier paint to work with and covers imperfections better. I will post more impressions once I've actually rolled an entire surface.

Until then.... Good Luck!

Why let facts or common sense get in the way of your opinions.

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