Dedicated Home Theater - Network... for dummies - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 02-09-2010, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so you can swing a hammer, run electrical, low voltage, plumbing (on a good day), drywall, trim, paint, buy lots of equipment, and sit on your rear when it is all said and done and enjoy.

What is with the home theater networking stuff???

I have read hundreds if not thousands of threads and I just don't get all the networking stuff and what is needed/desired for a dedicated home theater. I have seen many discussions but they tend to get over my head quickly.

Let's agree to some base assumptions to keep this focused.

1. For those of us with a dedicated room, the "Primary" computer of the house is not located in the theater and the original source of high speed (cable, DSL etc) is connected to that computer that is somewhere else in the house.

2. We either have the ability to run additional wiring from our theater equipment to the primary home computer or we don't and need to do it wirelessly. (I have the ability to run the wire but I will assume that many don't.)

3. Most homes will have at least one lap top with the ability to pick up the internet off their wireless network. (Ie the primary computer of the house will be hooked up directly to the internet source and the wireless router will give the owner the ability to pick up that internet source within a reasonable range in and around the home.) Remember... this is the "dummies" verision and I am one of them dummies.

4. We are not looking to add the network necessary to land a 747 in our back yard. I applaud those of you with complete home automation but I don't think the majority of those reading this need to start the water running in their shower and close the blinds in their master bath upstairs with the push of a button on their theater remote as the movie ends.

So, can we share some of the basics.

What type of communicaiton do we want to plan for or add to our theater equipment and why (and possibly even how).

Streaming video souces. Netflix etc.
Home theater PC... why, what can it do for you.
basic automation like lights,
what about some motorized curtains.
IR vs radio frequentcy.
Gaming.

Don't try to answer it all on one post. Maybe just pick one topic and we will build from there.

I think most here will understand the basics of a receiver, a VCR... oh scratch that... make that DVD... no scratch that... a Blu-ray, and some speakers. Let's build from there. What does some of the other stuff give us and what does hooking it up to a network or to the web allow us to do?

This is a "dummies" course so please define terms as you use them. A "bridge" to me is something that connects the Upper and Lower peninsula of Michigan. If you mean it to be something else, please explain.

Thanks.

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post #2 of 45 Old 02-09-2010, 10:45 AM
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While I do not have a dedicated theater room, I do have 5 components in my A/V gear that are hooked into my network; X-Box 360, Samsung 46LN640 LCD, Samsung BP1600 bluray player, WDTV Live, and a Wii. Those components are all hard-wired to the network with the exception of the Wii, which is wireless. While I could have ran 4 ethernet cables from my router to the A/V location (completely separate rooms), the most logical way was to run one ethernet cable from the router to the A/V location and tie it into an ethernet switch.

Since you want detailed explanations, think of an ethernet switch like a power strip. By plugging it into one power source, you are now given 5+ outlets to direct that power. Same goes for the ethernet switch. The cable from the router is plugged into the switch and then all of the hard-wired components can share the connection by being hooked into this switch as well. The switch I am using gives me an additional 7 ethernet ports right there at all of my A/V gear.

As for what being tied to the network can give you, in my case:
1 - Allows me to use the X-Box 360 as a media center extender and pull content from my desktop (or any other shared computer tied to the network), use X-Box Live, etc
2 - Keep the firmware on my LCD up-to-date. Also pulls stock quotes, weather information, and basic news from the net. Don't really ever use this feature, but it's there.
3 - Stream Netflix (some content in HD), Pandora, YouTube, and Blockbuster movies through the bluray player as well as keeping it's firmware in check.
4 - Stream content to the WDTV Live from my networked PCs (and/or NAS whenever I get one), use PlayOn media server to access additional online content like Revision3, Hulu, etc.

I could continue on a bit, but that is the just of it. From what I have seen, the primary use for networking in the home theater area is for HTPC and/or media player (Popcorn Hour, WDTV, Dune, etc) use. But, as illustrated above, it can certainly be used for more than just that, especially if you have a TV or bluray player that supports network connection.
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post #3 of 45 Old 02-09-2010, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4fit? View Post

Since you want detailed explanations, think of an ethernet switch like a power strip. By plugging it into one power source, you are now given 5+ outlets to direct that power. Same goes for the ethernet switch. The cable from the router is plugged into the switch and then all of the hard-wired components can share the connection by being hooked into this switch as well. The switch I am using gives me an additional 7 ethernet ports right there at all of my A/V gear.

Great analogy. My dad would understand that and that is what I am looking for. Thanks. I know there are wireless options as well so maybe someone else will chime in with that.

As for the 1-4, "media center extender", "x-box live", "firmware up to date".. etc. I don't think my dad would understand that. Maybe just one topic per post (or maybe not) but explain in layman's terms what these are.

What are the advantages of hooking up the x-box to the network. I would answer but other than on-line gaming, I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4fit? View Post

2 - Keep the firmware on my LCD up-to-date. Also pulls stock quotes, weather information, and basic news from the net. Don't really ever use this feature, but it's there.

The last line of this is good as well. Nice to know what is possible but also what doesn't get used.

thanks 4fit

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post #4 of 45 Old 02-09-2010, 05:33 PM
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I'm in the building stages of my basement and have yet to really dig into my theater, but I am planning on networking my house. My game plan is to have an ethernet connection (physical connection) in every room of the house. Why? Well, it'll give me the ability to stream all the media from 1 central location at a faster rate then wireless is capable of.

The media server. So say I have one massive computer that's job is to serve/deliver music, pictures, and videos to the rest of the house. Everything else would pretty much be a client or extender of that media server. They would contact the media server for those files and in turn play them through the network.

When we say the Xbox 360 is a media center extender, we mean that it has version of Windows Media Center built into it. It can access pictures, music, videos from the media server(s) just like any other client computer would over the network. Right now I use my Xbox 360 to watch digital copies of my movies and tv shows across my network on my tv.
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post #5 of 45 Old 02-09-2010, 07:03 PM
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Aloha,

I'm not quite yet following what it is you want from this thread... I'll be happy to help, I've actually written textbooks on this stuff. I wasn't quite sure where your boat is heading and before I jump in and swim I want to know I'm paddling in the right direction.

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post #6 of 45 Old 02-09-2010, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenP View Post

Aloha,

I'm not quite yet following what it is you want from this thread... I'll be happy to help, I've actually written textbooks on this stuff. I wasn't quite sure where you're boat is heading and before I jump in and swim I want to know I'm paddling in the right direction.

Lots of people building dedicated theaters that don't fully (or even partially) understand what is needed or desired in the network capability.

Example. I watch movies off a blu ray player and I watch TV of a sat receiver. That's it. What else is possible. What are advantages of wired vs wireless.... speed? How much.

Looking for a "dummies" guide to push those of us fairly good with a hammer down the "what else is possible" in my theater.

Man, that took longer than I thought it would...

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post #7 of 45 Old 02-09-2010, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPh Drew View Post

Lots of people building dedicated theaters that don't fully (or even partially) understand what is needed or desired in the network capability.

Example. I watch movies off a blu ray player and I watch TV of a sat receiver. That's it. What else is possible. What are advantages of wired vs wireless.... speed? How much.

Looking for a "dummies" guide to push those of us fairly good with a hammer down the "what else is possible" in my theater.

Gotcha, so basically a "Why bother with networking in the theater?" guide. With a bit of the technical stuff throw in as a tasty treat. Does that sound about right?

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post #8 of 45 Old 02-09-2010, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenP View Post

Gotcha, so basically a "Why bother with networking in the theater?" guide. With a bit of the technical stuff throw in as a tasty treat. Does that sound about right?

Yep. With a side order of "how ya do dat".

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post #9 of 45 Old 02-09-2010, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RPh Drew View Post

Yep. With a side order of "how ya do da".

I am on it! I'm actually working on something like this anyway, and I shall post it here when finished.

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post #10 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 08:49 AM
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I've been wondering all this too. I have a dedicated media room (upstairs) for BR/Xbox/Sat with no ethernet in the room. The desktop (upstairs) is wirelessly connected to the router (downstairs) so the signal is too weak for the xbox to stream music from the pc.

I put a lowes dimmer on the wall for the sconces.


I see people with lighting zones/themes controlled by universal remote, media servers, HTPC's, which look cool but how did you do it and why?
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post #11 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPh Drew View Post

As for the 1-4, "media center extender", "x-box live", "firmware up to date".. etc. I don't think my dad would understand that. Maybe just one topic per post (or maybe not) but explain in layman's terms what these are.

I know you said one topic per post, but just easier to list these all here.

A media-center extender is a device that has support for Windows Media Center, whether it be VMC (Vista Media Center), Windows 7 Media Center, etc. This allows you to access information (stream) such as pictures, videos, music, etc from the Windows computers tied to your network. Media center also has tons of plugins (small 3rd party applications that add to the feature set of media center) available for download, many of which are free. Things like MyMovies and Netflix support for example. Installing these on your media center PC will also make them available on the media-center extender.

The main benefit of X-Box live is to play online gaming, of course. However, being attached to X-Box live also enables you to download game demos, trailers, etc. I have also used X-Box Live to setup private parties (where you invite people to join you in chat, games, etc) and talk to friends and relatives from across the nation. X-Box live also has support for social networks Facebook and Twitter, if you are into that sort of thing.

Think of firmware updates sorta like service packs for Windows or something along those lines. Manufacturers frequently (well, some more frequently than others) release new firmware that include bug fixes and/or add new features to your equipment. Probably easiest to just head over to Wilipedia or something like that for a more detailed explanation of firmware.
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post #12 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 10:22 AM
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Wireless isn't good at streaming high-bit technologies, like HD video for instance. This is why wired is preferred for the extenders. Even wireless-N stuff has a helluva time keeping up. Wired is just all-around better. Not to mention if you have a file server in the house storing all your stuff, those big files getting schlepped around via gig-E vs 54mbit is a huge difference.

Also wireless is a HUB technology, whereas ethernet is switched. (wireless has 54mb for ALL clients connected, and it's shared, whereas wired is 100mbit PER port)
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post #13 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 12:29 PM
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[quote=goobenet;18108638]Wireless isn't good at streaming high-bit technologies, like HD video for instance.

I've heard this too and would prefer hardwired ethernet, however my house doesn't have it so, I've been using Panasonic's Power Line ethernet which uses the house wiring. It works great for surfing, downloading, U-tube, etc. but, I haven't tried streaming a movie.

My cable connection is not in the area where my theater is being built but, I plan to move it there when I install the equipment rack and then use power line ethernet for the rest of the house.

Dale
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post #14 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 01:00 PM
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When I built my HT, I ran two Cat6 wires into the back of the rack. These two originate in my office on another floor where my router, wireless, and main computer reside. The two are plugged into the router in the office, which gives them access to my home network and the internet. I didn't think too much about them at the time of construction.

The Bluray machine I purchased has an ethernet port used for updating firmware, and streaming Netflix. So, initially I used one cat6 for this application.

Then I was introduced to the world of streaming Bluray's off of a hard drive. My second cat6 was used to network my new Popcorn Hour A-110 on to my home's network. This allows the PCH to catalog and play any of the blurays that reside on the main computer in my office. I have become a bit obsessive about this (Nooo - you say!), and my current collection is roughly 450 Bluray titles, plus some HD television content.

I have moved to the PCH method more or less solely. I still have the Bluray player, but I haven't spun a disc in 6 months. My point is simply drop a few ethernet connections to your rack if you possibly can. I didn't plan on using either cable immediately, and now they are both utilized within less than one year. The nice thing about ethernet cabling is that to expand my capacity (number of devices connected) all I need to do is install another small hub or switch in the rack and I'm all set.

In a nutshell -- if you can drop ethernet lines into your rack during construction, do it!!
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post #15 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 03:41 PM
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"mscott said: I have become a bit obsessive about this (Nooo - you say!), and my current collection is roughly 450 Bluray titles, plus some HD television content."

Wow...450, I don't think obsessive is strong enough! You have been busy and I for one am envious of such a large collection.

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post #16 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 04:15 PM
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Doesn't just about every device have an ethernet port these days?
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post #17 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 08:31 PM
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here's a good site with information that can help you with the jargon you'll see in this thread and how it pertains to home theater, automation, etc....

http://www.hometheaternetwork.com/
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post #18 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 05:43 AM
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I recently upgraded my wireless network to wireless-N and it's been doing great (including streaming netflix and video files.).

Upstairs, we have our two PC's and a NAS (network attached storage - basically a file server). These are all wired into my D-Link DIR-655 wireless N router.

In the basement theater, I have a D-Link DAP-1522 bridge with built in gigE switch. My PS3, bluray player and HTPC are all wired into the DAP-1522 just like all the computers upstairs are plugged into the router.

We then have a bunch of wireless devices that also connect wirelessly (iphones, laptops, etc).

The router and bridge talk over the wifi to each other, essentially connecting the two wired networks (bridging) over the air. The bridge essentially replaces a wire going from the router upstairs to a plain hub/switch in the basement.

The wireless N link is fast enough to stream video without any problems and wireless networking is only going to get faster and longer range. I didn't feel it was worth the hassle of running ethernet cables.
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post #19 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 05:45 AM
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Wow! I think I need to rethink 16 ports as plenty.

They missed a D-box controller.
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post #20 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 07:12 AM
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Hopefully this provides some basic useful info....

Why would we want to add networking to our home theater?

The main reasons:

1) Steaming TV shows/Movies/Music
2) Online/LAN Gaming
3) Home Automation

Do I want to stream TV shows/Movies/Music from another computer in the house or the internet?

Basically streaming from the internet (Netflix) is easier, streaming from a computer requires more work and capital investment in computer hardware (which tends to become obsolete quickly). The advantages of streaming from a computer in house: all your content is immediately available, you can organize and store it as you wish, etc. However, this requires you to pay attention to your computers from time to time.

What do I need to stream TV shows/Movies/Music from a computer or the internet?

Conveniently, they are similar setups hardware wise. So you have that little black box (router) that your ISP (internet service provider) gave you when they set up your internet service, right? Well, you can run just one long ethernet cable (cat5e is fine, cat6 if you want to future proof), from the router your ISP gave you, to another router in your home theater such as:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/NewPro...-190-_-Product

You can now add up to four devices to that router. If you need more, you can daisy chain routers or buy a router with more ports. All devices connected to the router in your home theater will be able to access the internet and other computers on the network. (Assuming you leave permissions and such open)
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post #21 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamis View Post

I recently upgraded my wireless network to wireless-N and it's been doing great (including streaming netflix and video files.).

Upstairs, we have our two PC's and a NAS (network attached storage - basically a file server). These are all wired into my D-Link DIR-655 wireless N router.

In the basement theater, I have a D-Link DAP-1522 bridge with built in gigE switch. My PS3, bluray player and HTPC are all wired into the DAP-1522 just like all the computers upstairs are plugged into the router.

We then have a bunch of wireless devices that also connect wirelessly (iphones, laptops, etc).

The router and bridge talk over the wifi to each other, essentially connecting the two wired networks (bridging) over the air. The bridge essentially replaces a wire going from the router upstairs to a plain hub/switch in the basement.

The wireless N link is fast enough to stream video without any problems and wireless networking is only going to get faster and longer range. I didn't feel it was worth the hassle of running ethernet cables.

Wireless is good too; especially 802.11n. However some people may have issues using wireless in their home theaters as home theaters tend to be in basements with multiple layers of drywall and all sorts of RF signals bouncing around, which depending on the severity will cause packet loss. Wireless may work great for some, but for others YMMV.
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post #22 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockedude View Post

Wireless is good too; especially 802.11n. However some people may have issues using wireless in their home theaters as home theaters tend to be in basements with multiple layers of drywall and all sorts of RF signals bouncing around, which depending on the severity will cause packet loss. Wireless may work great for some, but for others YMMV.


My router is on the second floor of the house and the theater is in the basement. YMMV is definitely the case. I was actually surprised that mine worked as well as it did. When I was originally configuring the bridge, I had it in the same room as the router. I was able to get a full '300Mbps connection' between the two (real world sustained rates of around ~8MB/sec).

In the basement, the connection is usually around 108Mbps (3-4MB/sec sustained). That is with the bridge stuffed in my equipment closet under my HVAC ducting and right next to my rack full of equipment.

There are also options for high gain antennas or futzing with placement of each device to maximize connectivity. For example, I might get another bridge and move the router to the first floor.

Since the router and and bridge both have gigE switches built in, the transfer rates are very good on each of the segments. For example, I can get 30-35MB/sec from my PC to the NAS.
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post #23 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamis View Post

Since the router and and bridge both have gigE switches built in, the transfer rates are very good on each of the segments. For example, I can get 30-35MB/sec from my PC to the NAS.

Not too shabby!
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post #24 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 08:53 AM
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I'm curious what a typical bitrate is for streaming HD content on your N networks. I've heard many a problem with HD content + HD audio streams combined. I'd love to hear that there would be no issue streaming a Bluray w/ say Dolby True HD. I think that would convince me to finally rip out my G router.
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post #25 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mscott View Post

I'm curious what a typical bitrate is for streaming HD content on your N networks. I've heard many a problem with HD content + HD audio streams combined. I'd love to hear that there would be no issue streaming a Bluray w/ say Dolby True HD. I think that would convince me to finally rip out my G router.

I don't have a whole lot of experience using wireless N to stream HD content so bear with me....

I don't think there is a typical bitrate required that applies to all HD content. It all depends on the file that is being downloaded; which dictates the file size, which dictates the download speed required to watch the video without waiting for the video to buffer.

You could watch HD content over wireless b/g; it just takes longer than n. I think the part that people may have issues with when streaming HD content over wifi is that their equipment does not have the "wireless HDMI" spec, which would cause issues because the video/audio signal doesn't satisfy HDCP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-ba...ent_Protection

This is just my theory. If anyone else knows more feel free to chime in!
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post #26 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 12:27 PM
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Posting to 'subscribe' to this thread.

This is EXACTLY the type of info I have been looking for. Currently there are large plumes of smoke rolling out of my ear holes, LOL, trying to reasearch this on my own.

A question I have regarding media streaming whether from online sources or local files on Windows Media Center etc..... is an on-screen graphical user interface or menu. How do you select or navigate through all of the possibilities of this networked system? Can you see album covers etc? How do you navigate internet choices like internet radio, pandora or see what Netflix has to offer? Is it interactive or do you have to have favorites or something residing on your main (home) PC?

More please!!!!! GREAT THREAD!!!!
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post #27 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by diy_darryl View Post

Posting to 'subscribe' to this thread.

This is EXACTLY the type of info I have been looking for. Currently there are large plumes of smoke rolling out of my ear holes, LOL, trying to reasearch this on my own.

A question I have regarding media streaming whether from online sources or local files on Windows Media Center etc..... is an on-screen graphical user interface or menu. How do you select or navigate through all of the possibilities of this networked system? Can you see album covers etc? How do you navigate internet choices like internet radio, pandora or see what Netflix has to offer? Is it interactive or do you have to have favorites or something residing on your main (home) PC?

More please!!!!! GREAT THREAD!!!!

Suppose you have a computer in your home theater and a media server located elsewhere. To use Windows Media Center to browse the files on the other computer (media server) you have to specify the file path (it's real easy to do WMC prompts you to set this up when you first launch it). WMC does a pretty good job downloading album art, etc. For details on this sort of thing just check out the home theater computer sub-forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26
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post #28 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 01:02 PM
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The way a file is viewed and played is dependent on the type of box you are trying to stream from. Windows, Linux, XBox, PS3, Bluray, PCH all have different interfaces, but each seemingly has fairly easy GUI solution.

To reference the PCH (which I own), it has a way out of the box (firmware) which will allow you to browse network & file structures. It also has a few other software/skin solutions which are much more comprehensive and create a GUI interface and collects all the album art, summaries, etc. These are developed by individuals - not manufacturers - and are constantly being refined.

I am absolutely no expert on this subject, so perhaps we'll hear from others with lengthier experience than my massive 6 months+.
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post #29 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 01:45 PM
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This is a good thread.

I think this may have been covered, but I wanted to touch on wired vs wireless and some options you might have. This has been covered in parts throughout this thread, but I think since we are trying to say it so everyone can understand sometimes a few different view points can help someone less "in the know" make sense of it.

Wired vs Wireless
Wired technology is very mature and provides a few benefits:

1. It provides a larger pipeline for data. CAT6e should provide more than enough bandwidth to stream whatever you might want (for the time being).

2. Wired is a very stable and reliable connection. Wireless can be flaky at times and can be impacted by factors such as the hardware you choose (of course) as well as other people who live near you using wifi as well (this is a bigger issue in condos and townhomes). Wired doesn't really suffer from these issues. Of course you need to buy decent hardware with wired networking too, but the good stuff is still pretty inexpensive.

3. Wired networks are more secure. A wireless network can be breached. For most people this isn't a big deal, but someone could see your shared files (family photos, etc). This is just something to be mindful of, but isn't really a major concern if proper precautions are taken when configuring your network.

Wireless isn't all bad tho, some of the upsides are:

1. No need to run wires. This is pretty obvious and doesn't really need further discussion.

2. You can upgrade more easily as technology evolves. Once you run a wired network and put up your drywall you are fairly stuck with it. Granted CAT6e has a lot of headroom, but there is no question that the future will bring us more and more bandwidth-hungry uses for our networks. With wireless you just buy some new hardware and you are off to the races.

I think that covers the wired vs wireless thing.

One other thing I wanted to touch on were some alternatives to conventional ethernet cables:

1. Powerline networking is available as an option. Some houses power systems do better with this than others. It was a fairly popular idea before wireless became so affordable. I don't think this really gets too much development attention and I suspect will sooner or later fade away.

2. MOCA/NIM Devices allow you to network via the coax that is in your walls. It requires a "NIM" device in each location you want to access this form of networking. The devices were originally used by Comcast, Verizon, etc and could be had on ebay. They are now becoming available in standard retail stores. I have used the ebay versions before (made by Motorola) and they work fairly well but do need an occasional reboot. A negative I did observe was that it messed up my On-Screen guide when using FiOS.

A note with either of these options is that depending on how your neighborhood is wired you may end up extending your network beyond your home so just something important to keep in mind.

I hope this helps and isn't too confusing. There are a lot of options out there, but I think in the wired vs wireless question there is really no compelling reason to not run wired networking if you have a chance.

How about touching on Why any of this matters:

I think the question a lot of people who are less into computer/tech stuff wonder is why do any of this. I think there are a few good reasons both near term and looking ahead:

1. Resale value. This is an easy one to understand. To a lot of home buyers (especially younger ones) there is value to having a "wired" home. We just had a house built and spent a fair bit of money having connectivity things installed.

2. Online gaming. This really depends on your hobbies, but systems like the Xbox360, PS3, and Wii offer a ton of online gaming options and this will only continue to grow and become more prevalent as a form of entertainment.

3. Streaming digital content. You can store all your movies, pictures, and music in a central location and access it using a Home Theater PC (HTPC), AppleTV, PopCornHour, etc. This makes it easier to enjoy these types of media anywhere in the house.

4. The future is internet-based. That may sound dramatic, but I think we'll see more and more content delivered via the internet. I suspect Cable and FiOS provides will begin to blur the line between TV content and the internet service they provide so having a "wired" home allows you to take advantage of that. As a side note to this, I think the merging of TV and internet will spell out the end of satellite TV, but that is a different thread.

I hope this helps some and doesn't just make you (or anyone else) more confused. I think a strayed a bit from the dummies guide concept (sorry about that).
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post #30 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope this helps some and doesn't just make you (or anyone else) more confused. I think a strayed a bit from the dummies guide concept (sorry about that).

I don't think you strayed much at all. Thanks.

Man, that took longer than I thought it would...

Loganed 4/6/08 Logan's Hero 5/1/08

RPh Drew's INDEXED Thread - Logan's Hero... for now...

2010 - The year of the Shed
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