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post #31 of 148 Old 03-30-2010, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

If you attach the wall framing to the joists above with RSIC 04 clips then it does seem that there is a very small added benefit of using clips and channel on the walls facing exterior foundation walls.

This picture shows how the RSIC-DC04 clips are used. Does providing a gap between the walls and the ceiling not allow a direct pathway for sound into and out of the theater?
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post #32 of 148 Old 03-30-2010, 08:26 PM
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You are building an air tight double layer drywall aquarium, gaps in the framing are irrelevant and in fact interrupt mechanical transfer of vibrational energy.
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post #33 of 148 Old 03-30-2010, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Thanks. Which of these Roxul products do you recommend?

The least dense one your inspector will accept.
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post #34 of 148 Old 03-30-2010, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

What does a dedicated mini-split cost?

This one is ~$1,600 for materials. Labor would be about that or double that. My existing unit is large enough to handle the cooling needs for the entire basement. The only question is - is it worth spending the extra $3,000+ for a dedicated zone+thermostat?

A contractor suggested that i consider metal studs for the basement. Any soundproofing/acoustic issues with going metallic vice wood?

He also suggested DB3 by United Plastics, National Gypsum Sound Break, and Quite Rock. I am just getting familiar with these products. Any thoughts, anyone?
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post #35 of 148 Old 03-31-2010, 05:50 AM
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Quiet rock is basically drywall with a viseo-elastic dampening compound built in (e.g. Green glue). They have a bunch of models that can run up to $100 a sheet. Much cheaper, especially when you consider 10% waste to use $5-10 sheets of drywall and a few hundred bucks of GG. Don't know about the other products. I am guessing its something similar.

Metal vs wood - doesn't seem to matter too much. In many installs the spacing of the studs at 24" OC vs 16" OC is better for isolation (less points of contact), although I am not sure that matters if you are doing clips on the wall. If you do staggered studs or double walls to decouple then stud spacing may matter more. In addition increasing the wall cavity depth is a positive thing (though tough to do for many who are space constrained).
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post #36 of 148 Old 04-01-2010, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidluke2 View Post

I cant say much about other products but I have used quietrock which is a sound damping drywall which costs about 40$ (4x8 ft) for the 510 model. With Quietglue it will work way better than using many sheets of drywall. And with quietrock clips aren't necessary this should help quietsolution.com/QRock510_dsheet.pdf

Welcome to the forum. I am glad the quietrock was a good solution for you. But its mass and damping ability do nothing to address decoupling. Remember there are four core elements to sound isolation - 1. mass; 2. damping; 3. absorbtion (insulate your wall/ceiling cavities); 4. decoupling - I suppose a fifth would be sealing the room and addressing flanking paths. A good plan addresses all these points. Quietrock or double drywall and gg (or QG) address the first two. You can decouple with framing techniques (staggered stud or double wall) if clips are not practical.
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post #37 of 148 Old 04-05-2010, 02:15 AM
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with the distance you got there I would recommend, 5-11 foot in depth for height so you can add some staged seating with that distance 5-7 rows would be do-able..

though you need more than 7foot in height to do it..
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post #38 of 148 Old 04-05-2010, 04:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystic_sniper28 View Post

with the distance you got there I would recommend, 5-11 foot in depth for height so you can add some staged seating with that distance 5-7 rows would be do-able..

though you need more than 7foot in height to do it..

Mystic:
For the planned screen size, the shortest possible viewing distance is 10.3 feet. Any closer, and you will not be able to see the corners of the screen while looking at the center. I also planned for at least 7 feet between rows (for stretching legs or recliners). That limits the number of rows to two (four wide). Thanks
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post #39 of 148 Old 04-05-2010, 03:35 PM
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well I only suggested it, though given the length and width you had I would of gone with a 25-30 seat theatre, comfort is nice to have though if you want to more than 8 people at a time you have limited height which to put extra rows in..
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post #40 of 148 Old 12-01-2010, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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My drywall is up. I want to thank the following individuals who gave me invaluable advice:

John Hile of the Soundproofing Company - he shared key construction details for soundproofing and gave a very good price on supplies

Dennis Erskine, Erskine Group - he gave me very useful practical advice on sizing and locating HVAC registers
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post #41 of 148 Old 12-01-2010, 09:59 AM
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That's great! Let's see some pics?

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post #42 of 148 Old 01-23-2011, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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OK. I have some progress to report. Ted, sorry for the delay in responding to your request. I was busy with electrical, painting, etc. and did not visit AVS for a while.

Most of last year I was busy with permits, getting framing, electrical, drywall, painting, etc. done. I have posted some pictures to share as well. Just a few modifications since I posted my floor plan: I decided to wall-in the curved space and use that area for my equipment rack. This serves two purposes: makes it easier to deal with acoustics - curved walls will present a focusing lens for sound. This was suggested to me by Auralex. The rack in a separate room also allows noise/heat to be in a different room.

My screen wall is now 215" wide and 102" high. I plan on a 2.40 screen that is 65" high (acoustically transparent). Researching materials right now. Leaning towards Seymour Center Stage XD.

I used whisper clips and channels/green glue/double drywall (5/8") and double studs as suggested by the Soundproofing Company on all the walls+ceiling. I got good prices from them. John Hile was a great help throughout the process. No 'holes' for lights in the ceiling. 'Pink stuff' insulation from Home Depot in the walls and ceiling.

Dennis Erskine suggested that I use bar type registers (diffusers pointed downwards) for supply and return and have them installed near the ceiling. I used 4 4x48 bar type registers (see photo). Supply is near the screen and returns are at the back wall. You can see them in the pictures. Two for supply and two for return. I used insulated 8" flex ducts for supply and return. My HVAC contractor did the final design according to my specs for max. air velocity at the registers. I have it installed so that it can be easily upgraded to a separate zone in the future if needed. The HVAC contractor calculated a required air flow of 340 CFM based on a 10 person occupancy and equipment.

I did all the electrical+low voltage myself. I am including a picture of the low-voltage rough-in for my rack which will be in a utility space. I am also including a picture of the adjacent rec room that shows the door (on the left) to the theater.

I am finishing the rest of the basement as well (all told, 1800 sq. ft+). So, progress is slow. Now, my goal is to keep the rest of the basement moving forward so that I can get it inspected. I want to get the entire project to a point that it passes final inspection. Screen walls, speaker columns, etc. are not necessary for the inspection.
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post #43 of 148 Old 01-23-2011, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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More photos showing my future equipment rack location and a view of the entrance to the theater (left door opening) from the adjacent recreation room. Rack is going to be VERY BASIC - it is hidden away in a utility space. I have a noisy TIVO. I don't want any constantly buzzing sounds in the theater. Not to mention the heat generated.
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post #44 of 148 Old 01-23-2011, 05:43 PM
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Great progress! It is interesting that you used both double studs as well as isolation clips/hat channel to hang the double drywall. I bet the sound isolation is very good. What is your impression of the sound isolation for the room so far?

I really like your room space and size. I think you will be very happy with your decision to go ahead with the false wall and AT screen. Keep us posted!

- Scott
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post #45 of 148 Old 01-24-2011, 03:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

Great progress! It is interesting that you used both double studs as well as isolation clips/hat channel to hang the double drywall. I bet the sound isolation is very good. What is your impression of the sound isolation for the room so far?

I really like your room space and size. I think you will be very happy with your decision to go ahead with the false wall and AT screen. Keep us posted!

- Scott

Scott:
I have not yet installed the doors/or speakers. So, I not know how good the sound isolation will be. I put pink fiberglass insulation in the walls and the ceiling as well. I hope that it will be good enough to keep the Boss satisfied. Upstais I have to watch TV with TV Ears! Thanks.
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post #46 of 148 Old 01-24-2011, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Updated plan. This is what the final drywall dimensions look like (attached). I am experimenting with screen sizes and seating distances.
What's the best way to hide speakers (surrounds)? My double drywall is up and I have 3' ft of speaker wire stuffed inside gang boxes. I could go floor standing, but would be nice to learn how to be able to mount and hide them, too.

 

Punch Design.pdf 10.7978515625k . file
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post #47 of 148 Old 01-25-2011, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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After going back and forth with Chris of Seymour AV on the 'Official Seymour Center Stage XD', I am leaning towards a 2.40 screen (with anamorphic lens) using XD Center Stage screen with the following dimensions: 163"W x 68"H, 24" from floor, 10" below ceiling. Dark burgundy flat wall and ceiling paint.
First row=16.5' away (to maintain at most 45 degree viewing angle for front row)
Second row = 23.5 ' away
Distance to wall behind second row= 2.5 ft.

Using BenQ W6000 in a light controlled room, that is capable of 1050 calibrated lumens, the screen brightness at 1.1 gain (conservative) will be = 15 ft. lamberts. This seems to be more than adequate for a fully light controlled room. Many folks seem to think that 15 ft-lamberts in a light controlled room are adequate. Many get way with less than 12. I'd have liked 16+, but that means '000s more for a PJ. I'd rather put that money towards a good anamorphic lens. (ISCO dreams). The XD fabric is a very affordable fabric too and Chris thinks that at those distances gives better image than the much more expensive EN4K.

Thoughts anyone?
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post #48 of 148 Old 01-25-2011, 04:54 PM
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My two cents - I'd move both rows forward a couple feet, and reduce the screen size. Same level of immersion, and more headroom as far as projector light output. Also would give the back row a little breathing room from the rear surrounds, which should help.
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post #49 of 148 Old 01-25-2011, 05:30 PM
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I share Brad's thoughts. That is a really big screen. I haven't seen one that big in any of the local HTs. I would be inclined to do two rows of seating and a back sit at bar facing the screen for a total of 3 rows. With 28+ feet of room length you can make it happen.
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post #50 of 148 Old 01-25-2011, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

My two cents - I'd move both rows forward a couple feet, and reduce the screen size. Same level of immersion, and more headroom as far as projector light output. Also would give the back row a little breathing room from the rear surrounds, which should help.

Brad, BigMouth, that's useful input. Thanks. I am just sooo tempted with a big screen that I recognize that I might be overdoing it.

I made some exact measurements: My room is 340 inches deep. Allowing for 24" behind false screen wall and 3.5" for the false wall itself, leaves me with 312.5 inches (26'-0.5") to play with. Question: Is 24" (2') behind false wall enough?

If I go for a 2.4 150" wide screen, I can be seated at 15' for a 45 degree viewing angle. Allow 7' for seat gap. This will leave me a shade over 4' behind the rear seat. The screen brightness should now be nearly 18 ft-lamberts.

How's that? Reasonable?
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post #51 of 148 Old 01-25-2011, 08:28 PM
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The 45 degree viewing angle is obviously on the "full immersion" end of the spectrum, so just be sure that that's what you want before committing. You can do that either by visiting someone's HT near you and watching from a distance that gives you that angle, or do the same at a local movie theater, march off the screen width and distance and sit in the seat that approximates 45 degrees. Watch a whole movie, make sure you don't get fatigued after a little while.

Then, buy and mount the projector, and shoot a picture of that size on a hanging bed sheet or whatever, make sure it feels right to you.

As far as brightness calculations - keep in mind that the bulb will dim over its lifetime, and it happens early on - if its 18 at the start, it could get to 10 or less at the end of the bulb's life - still probably OK. Also keep in mind that using the zoom method on a 2.35:1 screen, you're not using 100% of the panel (part of it is shooting blanks... I mean black), so you aren't getting 100% of the light output - so take away maybe 1/4 on the lumens.

4' from the back sounds pretty good. I might add an extra 3-6" behind the screen wall - I wish I had a couple more inches (ahem).
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post #52 of 148 Old 01-26-2011, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

The 45 degree viewing angle is obviously on the "full immersion" end of the spectrum, so just be sure that that's what you want before committing. You can do that either by visiting someone's HT near you and watching from a distance that gives you that angle, or do the same at a local movie theater, march off the screen width and distance and sit in the seat that approximates 45 degrees. Watch a whole movie, make sure you don't get fatigued after a little while.

Brad, I saw a 126" diagonal, 2.40 screen from 16' away at a local showroom (33 deg. viewing angle?). While the picture was great (Stewart screen, Runco LED PJ, ISCO lens), it was not immersive enough for me. And this was using 2.40 content. For 16:9, from 16' I will definitely be underwhelmed by the picture on the same screen. If the front row is too much, I can always sit in the back row OR use masking (that I intend to build) and make the screen smaller. I can't do the reverse easily. Hence, I am inclined to go for a bigger screen.
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post #53 of 148 Old 01-26-2011, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

I am leaning towards a 2.40 screen (with anamorphic lens) using XD Center Stage screen with the following dimensions: 163"W x 68"H.....First row=16.5' away

In this plan you will be sitting 1.21 screen widths away from the screen.

I sit 130 inches from my 116 inch screen or 1.12 screen widths away, closer than your plan.

I think most of my concerns are about the quality of the image on a 13.5 ft wide screen. However, I have not seen the performance of the projector you are considering.

I'm sure you have seen this:

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post #54 of 148 Old 01-26-2011, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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BigMouth:

My seating distance for the revised 150"W screen is now 181" (i.e. 1.21 ratio '20th Century Fox Ideal' according to your chart and relatively farther than your seating distance.) I had seen the chart earlier but thanks for reposting because it helps tweak ratios. Do you think that your seats are too close for your 48 degree viewing angle (assuming your screen is 116" wide vice diagonal)? If not, then I might be able to move mine a bit closer as well. Chris Seymour thinks 45 degrees tops.

I have no experience with the projector (BenQ W6000, about $2k) but reviews seem reasonable. It's not the best for black levels, but color is apparently great. It also is the brightest PJ in the <$10k range. My problem is going to be getting the picture to be bright enough.

I am hoping that brighter PJs will get affordable in the future. But right now, that's the brightest for that price. It will give ~18 foot-lamberts on the XD screen. Many people on the Official Seymour Center Stage XD thread think that that is good enough for a completely light controlled room.

The 126" Stewart screen with a Runco LED PJ that I saw in the showroom was producing less than 16 ft-lamberts (perhaps as low as 12), and the picture looked bright enough in a light-controlled room.

Granted, the BenQ is no Runco, but the picture should be bright enough. It produces 1060 lumens in 'best' mode with 'brilliant color' on. As for quality (resolution?) I think that the larger the screen gets, the less the risk of moire. Carlton Bale has an excellent calculator that can also be used. I think that I am close enough at 15' to be able to appreciate 1080P, but far enough to not get dizzy.
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post #55 of 148 Old 01-26-2011, 07:34 PM
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DIY,
My 2 cents...

FALSE WALL: I have exactly 24" behind my false wall. This space is in addition to the fact that I have acoustical absorption on my entire front wall, which takes up another couple of inches. I have 24" of actual space from the face of the acoustical panels on the front wall to the back of the false wall. 24" of floor space is adequate but definitely tight. There are some subwoofers that would be too deep for only 24" of floor space. If you could spare another 6 inches behind the false wall, it wouldn't hurt.

SCREEN SIZE: I sit 138" from my 120" wide scope screen (ratio = 1.15). Sometimes I wish my screen was a little bigger. Since you are planning on 4-way masking, my suggestion is to go with the absolute biggest screen you can get by with. If you find it is too big, it will be easy for you to mask down to a smaller size. On the other hand, if you go with a smaller screen and decide you want bigger, you won't have any good options. In other words, a huge screen with 4-way masking gives you the most flexibility for the long term.

SEATING DISTANCE: I would also suggest that you move your front row a little closer. I find that I like more than a 45 degree viewing angle because I love to be totally immersed in the movie. This is personal preference though. With your room, you have a lot of flexibility with where you place your seating and you can play with seating distance until you find what suits your preference.

- Scott
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post #56 of 148 Old 01-26-2011, 08:35 PM
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Here's another data point. My front row is 138" from my 130" wide 2.38:1 screen. My second row is 216" from the screen. My ratios are:

Front row: 1.06
Back row: 1.66

Sitting in the front row is really intense for 2.35 content. I like it! I normally sit in the back row for 2.35 content and the front for 16:9. My kids, however, LOVE the front row for everything!

Follow my build here: Harvest Ridge Theater
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post #57 of 148 Old 01-27-2011, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

DIY,
My 2 cents...

FALSE WALL:... If you could spare another 6 inches behind the false wall, it wouldn't hurt.

SCREEN SIZE: ... In other words, a huge screen with 4-way masking gives you the most flexibility for the long term.

SEATING DISTANCE: I would also suggest that you move your front row a little closer. I find that I like more than a 45 degree viewing angle because I love to be totally immersed in the movie.

- Scott

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboranadum View Post

Here's another data point. My front row is 138" from my 130" wide 2.38:1 screen. My second row is 216" from the screen. My ratios are:

Front row: 1.06
Back row: 1.66

Sitting in the front row is really intense for 2.35 content. I like it! I normally sit in the back row for 2.35 content and the front for 16:9. My kids, however, LOVE the front row for everything!

Scott, Carboranadum:

Thanks. So now I have yours and Big's inputs that exceeding the 45 degrees viewing angle is acceptable. Accordingly, I will aim for the larger screen and, as Scott mentioned, use masking if it gets to be too big.

I am settling on these dimensions:
  1. 30" behind false wall
  1. Revert to 163"W 2.40 screen (Scott, if you get a chance please run my numbers for allowance for your masking system as shown below. Thanks)
  1. First row will be 181" away from screen (48 degree viewing angle). Shall I move it even closer?
  1. Second row, 7' behind first, leaving 41" behind rear seat


Scott, I intend to follow your lead for the ingenious 4-way masking system you developed. My calculations for space allowance to calculate maximum possible screen size are as follows (trying to follow your diagrams as best I could):
  • Screen wall width (drywall to drywall)=215"
  • Screen wall height (slab to drywall ceiling)=102"
  • Two 18"W doors on either side of screen. (I'll have to breathe out to get through, but wont have to do it too often)
  • 3" for each door frame (I intend to frame using single studs since this door does not need to very sturdy. Should I double up?)
  • Allowance for vertical masking system on each side = 5"
  • No allowance for horizontal masking systems since they can fit into the space above and below the screen
  • Screen edges located 24" above slab and 10" below ceiling. The 10" space, I assume, will be sufficient for the masking system roller installation

Using the above dimensions, my maximum screen width possible=

=215-2*(18+3+5)"
=163"

Scott, will that work?
Thank you.
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post #58 of 148 Old 01-27-2011, 06:39 AM
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Probably the most critical element in the amount of room to leave behind the screen wall is the choice of speakers. It is the sub woofers that can really chew up space. I have about 24 inches behind my screen. There are some interesting sub woofers that are much bigger than that.
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post #59 of 148 Old 01-27-2011, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I measured my B&W ASW800 and it fits in the 30" depth. That's a big sub that i intend to reuse. Thanks
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post #60 of 148 Old 01-27-2011, 06:51 AM
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Scott! How have you been? It's been a while!

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