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post #91 of 148 Old 03-23-2011, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post


My understanding is that you can connect 11 speakers but only 9 of them will have an audio signal. Onkyo allows you to select which set of 9 will have a signal.

Mark

Ok. So, I should be able to drive the LCRs, wides and surrounds with the pre outs/external amp and the rears from the Onkyo inboard amp, right?
Thanks
I'd be interested in the Denon if it had XT32 and THX Ultra2
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post #92 of 148 Old 03-23-2011, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Ok. So, I should be able to drive the LCRs, wides and surrounds with the pre outs/external amp and the rears from the Onkyo inboard amp, right?
Thanks
I'd be interested in the Denon if it had XT32 and THX Ultra2

Yes with regard to the Onkyo.

The Denon 4311 has XT32 and can do all 11 channels. Frankly, I don't care very much about the THX certification. I have a video processor which is THX-certified and it was defective from the very beginning.

By the way, I've gone through your thread and I've noticed that you plan to paint your walls a dark burgundy. I think that's fine, provided that the area directly around your screen should have a neutral color or, even better, black. My walls are dark burgundy and my ceiling is wood. I decided to change the color of the walls and ceiling around the screen to black. The improvement in the apparent contrast ratio was pretty substantial.

Mark
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post #93 of 148 Old 03-24-2011, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post


Yes with regard to the Onkyo.

The Denon 4311 has XT32 and can do all 11 channels. Frankly, I don't care very much about the THX certification. I have a video processor which is THX-certified and it was defective from the very beginning.

By the way, I've gone through your thread and I've noticed that you plan to paint your walls a dark burgundy. I think that's fine, provided that the area directly around your screen should have a neutral color or, even better, black. My walls are dark burgundy and my ceiling is wood. I decided to change the color of the walls and ceiling around the screen to black. The improvement in the apparent contrast ratio was pretty substantial.

Mark

Mark
Thanks. Will paint black around screen
My speakers are THX Ultra2 certified. I don't precisely recall the reason why a preamp should be certified so as well, but recall reading that it should be to reproduce 'reference levels' or something similar

While I can wire for wides, placing heights in the ceiling sounds unappealing because I've gone to great lengths to soundproof the room. I don't want to cut holes in double dry wall
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post #94 of 148 Old 03-24-2011, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Mark
Thanks. Will paint black around screen
My speakers are THX Ultra2 certified. I don't precisely recall the reason why a preamp should be certified so as well, but recall reading that it should be to reproduce 'reference levels' or something similar

While I can wire for wides, placing highs in the ceiling sounds unappealing because I've gone to great lengths to soundproof the room. I don't want to cut holes in double dry wall

"Reference level" is, in layman's terms, just plain LOUD - that refers to the power amp and not the preamp. The best way to achieve that is through an external power amp. Your room is big but it's not that big in terms of volume. Your speakers are reasonably efficient and you say that you don't listen at very loud levels anyhow. Therefore, you should have no problem with your Emotiva. Furthermore, make sure that your speakers are set to "Small" with a crossover of typically 80 Hz or higher. This will send the heavy bass signals to the subwoofer and increase the headroom for your other speakers.

Regarding Height speakers, I fully agree with you not to punch holes in the ceiling. However, you might still want to experiment with Height speakers on the wall, just as high as they can go. Borrow some speakers and then try it out with a temporary rig. If you don't like it, all you've lost is the cost of some conduits.

Mark
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post #95 of 148 Old 03-24-2011, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Craig:
Any thoughts about how critical the THX Ultra2 specification is for a preamplifier?
Thanks
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post #96 of 148 Old 03-24-2011, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

My speakers are THX Ultra2 certified. I don't precisely recall the reason why a preamp should be certified so as well, but recall reading that it should be to reproduce 'reference levels' or something similar.

(****I will preface my comments by stating this is for informational purposes only, that one can achieve stellar performance *without* THX certification, and that THX certification is not required to have an excellent sounding HT. I am not recommending THX to you, nor do I want your thread to devolve into a debate about the relative merits of THX certification, which can certainly happen very quickly on this forum.)

With the above preface, if one is using THX certified speakers, one could consider THX certification of the receiver or pre/pro for several reasons:

1. To be certain of having the capability to achieve "Reference Level" in the specifically sized room, and at the specific listening distances described in the THX spec. For THX Ultra2, that means 85 dB average levels with 20 dB of headroom:
http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-tech...ference-level/
in a room of 3,000 cubic feet and at a listening distance of 12 feet.
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-ent...ce-categories/
Your room is bigger than that, and your listening distances will be greater than that, so THX RL may not quite be achievable in your system. However, RL is *very* loud, and few people can listen at full RL for extended periods. I usually listen at -6 to -8 dB below RL.

2. To be able to mate THX speakers and subs with the THX crossover. The speakers, subs and the crossover work as a system. When the "system" is design from the start to work together, the ideal crossover can be achieved. The THX crossover is designed specifically to work with the roll-off characteristics of THX speakers. The result is the ideal Linkwitz-Riley, dual 4th order crossover, which is free from phase shift. Many non-THX receivers use the same crossover points and slopes as the THX crossover. However, it is not *required* in a non-THX receiver/pre/pro.

3. To be able to use the THX processing modes. Some people find benefit in the THX processing modes:
http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-tech...iver-features/
These processing modes are only available in THX certified receivers or pre/pros.

THX is a certification process which enables the consumer to be assured that the product carrying the certification meets a specific set of performance criteria, and that any THX certified product will work with any other THX certified product to achieve the prescribed levels of performance. Whether it has value to any one consumer is up to that consumer.

Again, it is certainly *possible* to put together a non-THX system that performs as well or better than a THX system. It's just up to the consumer to ensure everything works together as required.

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #97 of 148 Old 03-24-2011, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

(****I will preface my comments by stating this is for informational purposes only, that one can achieve stellar performance *without* THX certification, and that THX certification is not required to have an excellent sounding HT. I am not recommending THX to you, nor do I want your thread to devolve into a debate about the relative merits of THX certification, which can certainly happen very quickly on this forum.)

With the above preface, if one is using THX certified speakers, one could consider THX certification of the receiver or pre/pro for several reasons:

Thanks for summarizing succinctly what I was struggling with.


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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

2. To be able to mate THX speakers and subs with the THX crossover. The speakers, subs and the crossover work as a system. When the "system" is design from the start to work together, the ideal crossover can be achieved. The THX crossover is designed specifically to work with the roll-off characteristics of THX speakers. The result is the ideal Linkwitz-Riley, dual 4th order crossover, which is free from phase shift. Many non-THX receivers use the same crossover points and slopes as the THX crossover. However, it is not *required* in a non-THX receiver/pre/pro.

Craig

I just checked the specs. on my Atlantic Technology IWTS 8e Subs (THX Ultra) and they are 20-100Hz +/-3dB. Isn't 100 Hz too low for the upper limit for a good (let alone ideal) crossover? Many subs go up to 200 Hz with a near flat response.

No receiver/preamp will work 11.2+THX+XT32, though. XT32 is critical. So, it is a toss-up between THX and 11.2. Not sure how to handle this trade. ( With a 7-channel separate amp, one should be able to obtain near reference level loudness, but may lose out on other features that you mentioned above)

Thanks
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post #98 of 148 Old 03-24-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Thanks for summarizing succinctly what I was struggling with.

I just checked the specs. on my Atlantic Technology IWTS 8e Subs (THX Ultra) and they are 20-100Hz +/-3dB. Isn't 100 Hz too low for the upper limit for a good (let alone ideal) crossover? Many subs go up to 200 Hz with a near flat response.

The THX crossover is 80 Hz with a 24 dB/octave slope above that. There is no benefit to a sub with upper extension to 200 Hz if you low pass filter it at 80 Hz with a steep slope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

No receiver/preamp will work 11.2+THX+XT32, though. XT32 is critical. So, it is a toss-up between THX and 11.2. Not sure how to handle this trade. ( With a 7-channel separate amp, one should be able to obtain near reference level loudness, but may lose out on other features that you mentioned above)

Thanks

My suggestion is to find out if the Denon uses a 12 dB high pass on the speakers and a 24 dB low pass on the subwoofer for its' 80 Hz crossover. If it does, then it mimics the THX crossover and it will work just as well as a THX receiver/pre/pro for that aspect. Since you are using external amplification, RL is not an issue. Since you will be using Audyssey, and Audyssey performs something similar to most of the THX processing modes, that also becomes a moot point.

Bottom line, if the Denon uses the THX crossover algorithm, and 11.2 is important to you, it will do everything you want.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #99 of 148 Old 03-25-2011, 06:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

My suggestion is to find out if the Denon uses a 12 dB high pass on the speakers and a 24 dB low pass on the subwoofer for its' 80 Hz crossover. If it does, then it mimics the THX crossover and it will work just as well as a THX receiver/pre/pro for that aspect. Since you are using external amplification, RL is not an issue. Since you will be using Audyssey, and Audyssey performs something similar to most of the THX processing modes, that also becomes a moot point.

Bottom line, if the Denon uses the THX crossover algorithm, and 11.2 is important to you, it will do everything you want.

Craig

From Denon's website for the 4311CI . Click on the tab for 'Detailed Specifications' and then expand the 'Component Technology' branch:

"​Variable High/Low Pass Crossover Points (12/24dB) 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 / 150 / 200 / 250"

I think that this will meet the specs you mentioned. Only difference being that THX products are 3rd party tested but this model would not be, so you'd have to be willing to believe the manufacturer's specs. I think that that's not such a big deal.

I am also getting lots of feedback from Steve Feinstein of Atlantic Technology on speaker placement. He has many good ideas. I will share them here in a summary form. Thanks for putting me in touch with him.
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post #100 of 148 Old 03-25-2011, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

From Denon's website for the 4311CI . Click on the tab for 'Detailed Specifications' and then expand the 'Component Technology' branch:

"​Variable High/Low Pass Crossover Points (12/24dB) 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 / 150 / 200 / 250"

I think that this will meet the specs you mentioned. Only difference being that THX products are 3rd party tested but this model would not be, so you'd have to be willing to believe the manufacturer's specs. I think that that's not such a big deal.

I think you found your receiver! Denon used to have a lot of their receivers THX certified, so I'm sure they're aware of the spec's. I have no doubt the 80 Hz crossover would be an exact implementation of the THX crossover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

I am also getting lots of feedback from Steve Feinstein of Atlantic Technology on speaker placement. He has many good ideas. I will share them here in a summary form. Thanks for putting me in touch with him.

Steve is a great guy and extremely helpful. He'll give you excellent advice. Tell him I said "Hi".

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #101 of 148 Old 03-25-2011, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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This post summarizes the recommendations received from Steve Feinstein, Director of Marketing and Product Development at Atlantic Technology. Steve was most helpful in helping me looking at this topic from a fresh perspective. Revised speaker layout attached. Briefly:
  1. Move the seats forward about two feet, especially the front sofa. That’s the “money” sofa, where you sit and you paid the money! It’s a little too far back in the room—it’s predominantly in what we call the reverberant field, where the sound is made up mostly of the reverberations and reflections off the floor, ceiling and sidewalls, with relatively little direct sound from the front LCR speakers reaching your ears. You want a better mix of direct and reverberant sound. Move a bit closer. You get more detail, more impact, more immediacy, without losing the sense of space and three-dimensionality. If you were to go too close, the Direct sound would dominate, and you’d lose the feeling of space and environment

    This also solves the problem of seats #5 and #8 being too close to rear surrounds. I'll have to make the screen proportionately smaller. My fixation on going with the biggest screen possible was blinding me to the acoustic pitfalls. Would also make my picture brighter, since I already had concerns about finding a projector bright enough for a reasonable price.
  2. Your LB and RB speakers are a little too far apart. Move them inwards about a foot each, to let the sound from the speakers “breath” a little before it hits the nearby side wall.
  3. Your front L and R speakers are too far apart, too close to the side wall, too much distance between them and the C speaker. Move them in about a foot or two each. This will give you a sharper, more focused front sound stage.
  4. Location of L/R surrounds: This depends on whether you want to optimize the sound for both rows or for the ‘money’ row. How often will that second row be used? All the time? 10% of the time? If it were me, I’d optimize it for where I’m going to sit. Better to give yourself an ‘A+’ and the other row a ‘B’ than to give both rows a ‘B+.’
    I chose to optimize for the front row. Hence the surrounds are at 90 degrees to the front row now.
  5. I’d suggest you look at our model 1400 SR-z for the height speaker, which was specifically developed for that role in cooperation with Dolby. It works great with 8200e L-C-R speakers. I’d suggest high-passing it around 120 Hz. It’s about 5 ½” deep, which is considerably shallower than the 2400 SR or 4400 SR.
    http://www.atlantictechnology.com/de...asp?NodeId=145

    I will install these on the front wall. These will be hidden better and although the vertical angle will be less than 45 degrees, I think the result will be acceptable.
  6. Place Surrounds and Heights “Comfortably above seated ear level,” anywhere from 5-7 feet above the floor...Do not become obsessed with Dolby’s angle guidelines for the speakers. Use them as good approximations only, which is what they are. Keep your goal on the overall system performance, not on maintaining any one arbitrary detail. The same goes for Audyssey or any other rule, EQ system or set-up recommendation. They’re guidelines, not “laws.”
  7. Do not toe-in your subs. The front LRs can be towed in very slightly, and the angle will not affect the sound transmission through the screen.

So, folks, I think that this is going to be it. I hope this helps others as well. AVS is a great resource - amazing people and knowledge out there. Newbies like me can learn a thing or two.

 

DIYTheater.pdf 14.12109375k . file
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post #102 of 148 Old 03-25-2011, 07:00 PM
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1. My biggest concern is with the height speakers. I think their location has been determined mainly by your desire to place them behind the screen. The problem is that if they are placed there, they will not be functioning properly when used as Audyssey DSX Height speakers. One of the important concepts of the Wide and Height speakers is that they fill the gap between the front and surround speakers. In your diagram, you can see that the Wide speaker is nicely filling in part of that void between the surrounds and the fronts. The Height speakers, however, are also meant to fill in the gap between the Wides and Fronts. This is why the recommended angles are 30, 45 and 60 for Fronts, Heights and Wides. In your diagram however, the Heights are located, not between the Fronts and the Wides but between the 2 Fronts. The bottom-line is that I would much prefer to locate the Heights on the side walls, close to its top corner with the false front wall. I think that would be a better compromise.

2. If the surrounds will be at 90 degrees from the main listening position, they should ideally be dipoles.

Other than these 2 comments, I think the lay-out is fine and should sound great.

Mark
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post #103 of 148 Old 03-26-2011, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

1. My biggest concern is with the height speakers. I think their location has been determined mainly by your desire to place them behind the screen. The problem is that if they are placed there, they will not be functioning properly when used as Audyssey DSX Height speakers. One of the important concepts of the Wide and Height speakers is that they fill the gap between the front and surround speakers. In your diagram, you can see that the Wide speaker is nicely filling in part of that void between the surrounds and the fronts. The Height speakers, however, are also meant to fill in the gap between the Wides and Fronts. This is why the recommended angles are 30, 45 and 60 for Fronts, Heights and Wides. In your diagram however, the Heights are located, not between the Fronts and the Wides but between the 2 Fronts. The bottom-line is that I would much prefer to locate the Heights on the side walls, close to its top corner with the false front wall. I think that would be a better compromise.

Mark:
I had the same concerns as you about the location of the heights, and never having done this before, I had to rely on someone who is knowledgeable and has listened to height configurations. You will recall that my previous plan called for the Heights to be in the ceiling.

However, that would have meant placing them only 5' away from the listening position (My ceilings are only 8'-6" high). At that short a distance, there is a chance that the heights would be distinguishable from the fronts since the latter will be about 15' away. That runs counter to the notion of having an acoustically seamless front stage. I think that the 45 degree angle works best if the ceilings are higher and the heights can be a further distance away.

Steve F. has experience with only wall mounted heights in the testing they did with Dolby and Onkyo. I was hoping that they had ceiling mounted results as well so that a fair comparison could have been done. He thinks that wall mounted heights perform very well. I did ask him about my concerns about wall mounting vice ceiling mounting. I was erroneously under the impression that by mounting on the wall the heights will be indistinguishable from the fronts and hence not serve a useful purpose. Ceiling mounting would have 'fixed' that 'problem'. His response was, "Yes, they (Dolby and Onky) both used the front wall. The difference will be "distinguishable," because the front L/Rs will be handling a different signal than the Heights. When Dolby did their Heights on-off A-B demo for us, the entire soundstage seemed to 'rise' when the Heights were on, just like it should have. But you were not aware of the individual speakers playing, just like you're not supposed to be. In a good theater system, the soundfield is expansive, three-dimensional, and continuous. You should never be able to "distinguish" your 'front' speakers from your 'height' speakers from your 'side surround' speakers, etc. The sound should follow the video and simply be realistic and believable.

I can mount these height speakers on the ceiling with some improvisation (they are designed to be wall mounted), but would rather defer that until I've had a chance to first test them out in the wall configuration which would also give a cleaner look and hide the wires better.

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Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

2. If the surrounds will be at 90 degrees from the main listening position, they should ideally be dipoles.

Other than these 2 comments, I think the lay-out is fine and should sound great.

Mark

My surrounds will be dipole. They also have a bipole setting, but I'll try dipole first. Heights and Rears will be in bipole mode (as suggested by Steve). I was going to go with monopoles for the heights, but these specialized heights speakers come in dipole/monople. They are also not very expensive ($450 MSRP/pair), so this will not cost me anything significantly more. I have B&W 805 HTMs that I can use as wides. Steve thinks that they'll be OK with the Atlantic line in so far as timbre matching is concerned.

I intend to put two additional subs in the rear corners of the room. These are not shown in the figure. Only the two front subs are.
Thank you.
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post #104 of 148 Old 03-26-2011, 04:19 PM
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With regard to the Height speakers, I can see your concern about having them ceiling-mounted. If they will be only 5' away, there is a danger that they will be localizable. I have also never heard ceiling-mounted height speakers. Chris Kriakakis, the CTO of Audyssey, has said that they would work but I still don't think they would be ideal unless you can actually tilt the drivers so that they point at the Main Listening Position.

The main problem with your plan now is that the Heights have an even smaller horizontal angle than your Fronts. They should be between the Fronts and Wides.

Mark
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post #105 of 148 Old 03-26-2011, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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The main problem with your plan now is that the Heights have an even smaller horizontal angle than your Fronts. They should be between the Fronts and Wides.

Mark

True. I can move them out another foot or so each. If I move them any further, they will be outside the screen. Thanks.

PS: I've ordered more cable from Monoprice to wire for the heights and the wides.
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post #106 of 148 Old 03-26-2011, 05:57 PM
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True. I can move them out another foot or so each. If I move them any further, they will be outside the screen. Thanks.

PS: I've ordered more cable from Monoprice to wire for the heights and the wides.

Can you put the Heights on the walls just beside the subs? This would give you a much better angle and still keep the Heights hidden. I assume that the false wall will have acoustically transparent fabric.

By the way, Audyssey DSX speakers (Wides and Heights) are supposed to be monopole. I don't think it will be a good idea to make them bipole or dipole. I suspect they are also used for panning (which had an extraordinary improvement in my system after installing DSX), in which case they must be monopole. Perhaps the Dolby Height speakers can be bipole but that isn't the case with Audyssey DSX and in my view, DSX is much better than Dolby Height.

Mark
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post #107 of 148 Old 03-26-2011, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Can you put the Heights on the walls just beside the subs? This would give you a much better angle and still keep the Heights hidden. I assume that the false wall will have acoustically transparent fabric.

I suppose that I could do that. I plan on putting in sufficient extra cable to let me experiment with locations. One limiting factor will be the framing in the screen wall. That will constrain my locations somewhat.

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By the way, Audyssey DSX speakers (Wides and Heights) are supposed to be monopole. I don't think it will be a good idea to make them bipole or dipole. I suspect they are also used for panning (which had an extraordinary improvement in my system after installing DSX), in which case they must be monopole. Perhaps the Dolby Height speakers can be bipole but that isn't the case with Audyssey DSX and in my view, DSX is much better than Dolby Height.

Mark

I thought that they were supposed to be monopole too, but the desired effect is supposed to be diffuse. Hence, Atlantic's specialized Heights speakers are bipole/dipole. Here is a product review that specifically mentions, 'The idea of height channels is to widen the sweetspot, give a more enveloping surround experience, and to make the front soundstage, well, taller. Dolby recommends highly diffuse speakers that will not be as localizable as direct radiators.' But then, this review was done with Dolby PLZII. I need to check with Audyssey DSX. This AVS user seems to be pleased with the use of the bipoles in heights with DSX. Thanks
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post #108 of 148 Old 03-26-2011, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The Wides and Heights for Audyssey DSX should be direct radiators (not dipoles or... quadrapoles--don't know what that is).

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Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

I thought that they were supposed to be monopole too, but the desired effect is supposed to be diffuse. Hence, Atlantic's specialized Heights speakers are bipole/dipole. Here is a product review that specifically mentions, 'The idea of height channels is to widen the sweetspot, give a more enveloping surround experience, and to make the front soundstage, well, taller. Dolby recommends highly diffuse speakers that will not be as localizable as direct radiators.' But then, this review was done with Dolby PLZII. I need to check with Audyssey DSX. This AVS user seems to be pleased with the use of the bipoles in heights with DSX. Thanks
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My guess is that even with Audyssey DSX Height speakers that are dipole or bipole, you will still have a positive experience, but Chris Kyriakakis, CTO of Audyssey (see quote above), has specifically stated that they should be direct radiators. It may be different for Dolby Heights.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

My guess is that even with Audyssey DSX Height speakers that are dipole or bipole, you will still have a positive experience, but Chris Kyriakakis, CTO of Audyssey (see quote above), has specifically stated that they should be direct radiators. It may be different for Dolby Heights.

Mark

Indeed Chris Kyriakakis recommends direct radiators. (I went through each of his posts on the subject of Heights in the Audyssey thread):
  1. ""As close to the ceiling as possible" is our recommendation."
  2. "I understand the limitations of typical home ceiling heights. If you do decide to put height speakers in, place them as high as possible. But, only do that after you have installed the wides. They provide a more valuable audible benefit than the heights."
  3. "Yes, they are derived but not in the same way as matrixed content. Both the wides and the heights will be required to produce max SPL that is on par to what the front L and R channels produce."
  4. "That's the ideal case (45 degree elevation). Obviously real world rooms will vary. The rule of thumb is "as high as possible above your front speakers""
  5. "As with any multichannel system, it's always better to have matched speakers. The wides and heights should be direct radiators like L, C, R.""
  6. "The Wides and Heights for Audyssey DSX should be direct radiators (not dipoles or... quadrapoles--don't know what that is)"
  7. "It's both: 45° horizontal angle and 45° vertical angle as shown in the diagram. If the ceiling is not high enough to support a 45° vertical angle then the recommendation is to put the Height speakers on the front wall (outside the front L and R) and as high up as possible. Also, try to point them down to the listener. MultEQ will take care of the distances."
  8. "The tolerances on the placement of Wides and Heights can be ±10°."
  9. "The ITU recommendation for front L and R is ±30° (with the C at 0° in the middle). That spread was found to give good front stereo while still keeping a good match between picture and sound.
  10. In our experiments with Wides and Heights we found that there can be a ±10° tolerance from the optimum angles of the Wides. The Heights should really be as high as possible on the front wall (or in the ceiling pointing down)."
  11. "That's because the chart on our website shows the ITU recommendation for direct radiating surrounds. If you have dipoles at 90° then the Wides will be somewhat close to them if you place them at 60°. That is not a problem as the Wides are not playing the same content as the surrounds...The Heights should be as high as possible on the front wall corners and tilted down to the seats."
  12. "Mount them as high and wide as possible near the corners of the front wall and the ceiling. Ideally, your in-wall Heights will have tweeters that can be pointed down to the listening area."
  13. "The rule-of-thumb for the Heights is "as high as possible". In most rooms the recommended 45° angle is not possible given the ceiling height. So, with in-room speakers you should try to place them on the front wall as high up as possible and near the upper corners. MultEQ will take care of response issues. Try mounting them so they can be pointed down to the listening area. Alternatively, some use in-ceiling speakers that should be placed in the ceiling near the front wall."

And specifically in response to my question about my theater and my layout with the ceiling height limitation of 8-6", this was his advice:
"The best place for the Heights is on the front wall and as high up as possible. You need to maximize the vertical distance between the front LCR and the Heights in order to take advantage of the DSX processing...The Heights (and Wides) are responsible for direct and ambient sound. They should be direct radiators and not dipoles or bipoles."

So now I am wondering why Steve Feinstein of AT recommended bipoles. Perhaps they implemented the Dolby system and maybe Dolby calls for a diffuse Heights field. I'm going to have to follow up with Steve on the choice of appropriate direct radiators.

And most direct radiators are designed to be floor standing. Not sure how I will mount one high up and pointing in the right direction

Thank you
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post
So now I am wondering why Steve Feinstein of AT recommended bipoles. Perhaps they implemented the Dolby system and maybe Dolby calls for a diffuse Heights field. I'm going to have to follow up with Steve on the choice of appropriate direct radiators.

And most direct radiators are designed to be floor standing. Not sure how I will mount one high up and pointing in the right direction

Thank you
I agree that the recommendation of bipoles for the Heights probably considers a Dolby Height system, which is totally different from Audyssey DSX. Between the two systems, I would opt for DSX any time because I've listened to both and DSX has a much bigger positive impact.

A direct radiator is a normal speaker, as opposed to bipoles, dipoles, tripoles, etc. A direct radiator can be a floorstander or a bookshelf speaker. I have seen only two setups with floorstanders used as Heights, one of which was in the Audyssey lab and another was an incredible feat of engineering. Nearly everyone else uses an ordinary bookshelf speaker for the Heights - I do. Typically, you use the same bookshelf speaker for your Heights, Surrounds and Surround Backs.


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Quote:
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Typically, you use the same bookshelf speaker for your Heights, Surrounds and Surround Backs.


Mark
But, for the LR surrounds you need dipoles, and bipoles for the rears, right? I have asked Steve to recommend appropriate direct radiating speakers for the heights that will match the 8200e LCRs. I have a pair of existing B&W HTM Matrix speakers that Steve thinks can be used with the 8200s. Should I use these for the Heights and get beefier speakers for the Wides, or use them for the Wides instead? I think that the Wides are more critical.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post
But, for the LR surrounds you need dipoles, and bipoles for the rears, right? I have asked Steve to recommend appropriate direct radiating speakers for the heights that will match the 8200e LCRs. I have a pair of existing B&W HTM Matrix speakers that Steve thinks can be used with the 8200s. Should I use these for the Heights and get beefier speakers for the Wides, or use them for the Wides instead? I think that the Wides are more critical.
Sorry, yes, if your LR surrounds are at 90 degrees, they should be dipoles. For the rears, there are varying opinions but I would agree that they certainly can be bipole. In my own setup, all speakers are direct radiators but this is partly a result of my particular room lay-out.

Yes, I believe that the Wides are more critical. If you listen to them carefully, they have pretty high SPL and the sound is full-range. That's why my own Wides are floorstanders.

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Yes, I believe that the Wides are more critical. If you listen to them carefully, they have pretty high SPL and the sound is full-range. That's why my own Wides are floorstanders.

Mark

Steve F. of Atlantic Technology wrote, '4400 LR's are about as close a match as it gets to the 8200e LRs.'

I am thinking of using them for the Wides (Closest match to my LCRs which will be 8200es) and my B&W 805 HTMs for the Heights. Or, should I switch the arrangement? B&W for the Wides? Although the B&Ws are close to the ATs in timbre, they may not be identical.

What is your opinion of DSX? Do you use 9.x or 11.x?
Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Steve F. of Atlantic Technology wrote, '4400 LR's are about as close a match as it gets to the 8200e LRs.'

I am thinking of using them for the Wides (Closest match to my LCRs which will be 8200es) and my B&W 805 HTMs for the Heights. Or, should I switch the arrangement? B&W for the Wides? Although the B&Ws are close to the ATs in timbre, they may not be identical.

What is your opinion of DSX? Do you use 9.x or 11.x?
Thanks

Given that the Wides are more important than the Heights, if I had to use the B&W 805 HTMs, I would use them for the Heights and use the 4400 LR's for the Wides.

I think that DSX is an awesome piece of technology. It's magical. The main feature is that it greatly expands both the depth and width of the soundstage, way beyond the limits of your screen, and it wraps you in a seamless cocoon of sound. In addition, it greatly enhances panning (left to right, front to back, up to down and vice-versa). Once you start reading more about acoustics and psychoacoustics, particularly the topic of good and bad reflections, then you start to get a glimpse at the science behind the technology. In a word, Audyssey MultEQ minimizes the effects of unwanted reflections, while DSX injects the good reflections so as to enhance apparent source width and listener envelopment.

I have an 11.x system. The Wides clearly contribute more. However, when I changed my speakers so that all of them were from the same family, the impact of the Heights was improved. Then, when I installed the Heights at the proper elevation (I had previously forgotten to take into consideration ear height), the effect was improved even more.

My conclusion is that if I were you, I'd get 2 pairs of 4400 LR's and use them for Heights and Wides. Otherwise, you'll always be wondering how much improvement you will have if you change your B&W 805 HTM's.

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BigMouthinDC showed me how to hang doors. So today, he hung a 1-3/4" solid core door with a 12-1/4" jamb in the theater door. It was a little tricky, but he hung it perfectly. I installed the other door, but with a lot of help from Big. Thank you, Big!
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Biggest Jamb I've ever seen, one step closer to another great NoVA theater.
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Folks, I have been remiss in keeping you all up to date. I spent most of the year finishing the rest of the basement (doors, painting, trim, cabinets, bathroom, shelves). I made an opportunistic purchase of a used ISCO IIIL with a motorized sled. Here is the sled's users manual. I have never programmed one of these sleds - it offers control through RS232 and a latch relay. How does one control via RS232? Do I need a computer to send the commands for 'Go to home', 'Go to show', 'Stop', etc.?
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Inspired by the Bacon Race Theater, I built a nearly identical stage this weekend.

I am planning on building a short riser for the front row (about 3" high). Reason: I want to be able to use a butt kicker or equivalent for tactile feedback to the feet which would otherwise not be possible on a concrete slab. Question for all: Are there any light fixtures that might work on such a short riser?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

I am planning on building a short riser for the front row (about 3" high). Reason: I want to be able to use a butt kicker or equivalent for tactile feedback to the feet which would otherwise not be possible on a concrete slab. Question for all: Are there any light fixtures that might work on such a short riser?

Why not mount the Buttkickers to the chairs themselves? Many chairs already have a landing area / mounting spot for the Buttkicker to mount directly to the chair. And then there are other "Brackets" that slip under the feet of the chairs for low or no profile (height) applications. You don't need to build a small riser IMHO.
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