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post #121 of 149 Old 02-27-2011, 09:53 AM
 
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My theater is being built in my basement. It is always frigid down here in the winter and still very cool in the summer. Naturally, insulation will be added to the concrete slabs (walls) and carpet on the concrete floor, and this will reduce the loss of heat to the earth via the concrete.

How much heat can I expect the theater to create? It is a small one, roughly 22' x 12' x 7.5'.

I was planning on putting my return on the floor and piping my inlet to the floor as well, since heat rises. Will the theater be too warm, or is this a good suggestion?
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post #122 of 149 Old 02-28-2011, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmatt99 View Post

...It's essentially one DD/GG framed box with one complete horizontal and 2 partial vertical DD/GG dividers in the box that you weave the flex-duct around.

Thanks uscmatt. It seems that within this one box the inlet and outlet are divided by DD/GG. I don't understand why this is nececary. As long as the complete system is massive and long I would think it doesn't matter that sound waves travel from one channel to another.

Also your design uses vertical dividers to make the channel lenth longer. I wonder why that concept is not (anymore?) in Ted's design as shown in this topic. Is it not worth while?

I would love some scientific data or test for Ted's methods. It makes sence to me, but every other design I can find online is more about bends (the more bends the better), channel length (longer is better) and coating the channel with absorbtive material. In those design absorbtive surface seems to be more important than volume. In Ted's design all this seems less important and is all about volume. I'm sure results will vary per frequency...
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post #123 of 149 Old 02-28-2011, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscmatt99 View Post

Ted designed a mockup dead vent layout for me that will contain both an inlet and return. Total external dimensions are 9' high, 1.5' wide and 3' deep. It's essentially one DD/GG framed box with one complete horizontal and 2 partial vertical DD/GG dividers in the box that you weave the flex-duct around. Plan is to pull air out of the theater with a register near the projector mount, and feed cooler air from the basement floor level into the theater. I'll also have a minisplit for additional cooling, but I wanted a vent more for air exchange.

This is similiar to the setup I will be building assuming you will have two Fantech's to pull and push in air. In the theater, your pull and push vents are in different spots. Are your deadvent vents side by side or spaced apart so the same air being pushed out isn't pulled back in?....
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post #124 of 149 Old 02-28-2011, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM2 View Post

Thanks uscmatt. It seems that within this one box the inlet and outlet are divided by DD/GG. I don't understand why this is nececary. As long as the complete system is massive and long I would think it doesn't matter that sound waves travel from one channel to another.

Just like having two engines attached to one car muffler. The muffler can be overwhelmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM2 View Post

Also your design uses vertical dividers to make the channel lenth longer. I wonder why that concept is not (anymore?) in Ted's design as shown in this topic. Is it not worth while?

I would love some scientific data or test for Ted's methods. It makes sence to me, but every other design I can find online is more about bends (the more bends the better)...

The thing to keep in mind is that the bends are only seen as bends to the higher frequencies. Mid frequencies and ower pass through the sides of the flex despite the bends. Only the high frequencies will ever follow the bends.


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Originally Posted by PeterM2 View Post

...channel length (longer is better) and coating the channel with absorbtive material. In those design absorbtive surface seems to be more important than volume. In Ted's design all this seems less important and is all about volume. I'm sure results will vary per frequency...

My volume is filled with absorptive material = fiberglass. In either case, it's all about soundwaves interracting with absorptive material and losing energy

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post #125 of 149 Old 02-28-2011, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT_SoulMan View Post

This is similiar to the setup I will be building assuming you will have two Fantech's to pull and push in air. In the theater, your pull and push vents are in different spots. Are your deadvent vents side by side or spaced apart so the same air being pushed out isn't pulled back in?....

Thanks for bringing this up and I've been meaning to ask Ted. The room has a 24" deep by 12" high soffit at the perimeter that is really just to hold lights and for a tray effect. For now the plan was to have the theater outflow near the projector to pull off heat, the vent on the front face of the soffit. Inflow at floor level. Vents are aligned vertically, so only 9' apart. I can move the theater outflow vent through a soffit to the front, but this would decrease it's heat evactuating ability moving it away from the projector. I'm hoping that by just directing the vanes of the higher vent upwards and lower vent towards the floor, that would sufficiently exchange oxygen. Remember I do have a minisplit there to cool things down additionally as needed. Since it generates about 30dB, I'd rather only use it when necessary.

Any thoughts Ted?
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post #126 of 149 Old 02-28-2011, 02:40 PM
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If you have a mini-split, that's great, but the room is still sealed. After a 12 hour movie marathon, you'll all be cool, but dead.

So introducing a separate supply and return may be desirable. Generally they are placed as far apart as possible for best air exchange

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post #127 of 149 Old 02-28-2011, 02:40 PM
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Gotta love the Natural Gas Boiler heat
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post #128 of 149 Old 03-12-2011, 12:48 PM
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I'm wondering where you guys dump the air from your dead vents? I have one air in that's tied to the whole house system, and then I have a dead vent pulling air out of the room via a fantech fg8xl. Currently the fg8xl just dumps the air into an adjacent utility room, but I'm wondering if it should be tied into the whole house system, left as is, or vented externally to the house?

Thx
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post #129 of 149 Old 03-12-2011, 08:07 PM
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Gotta question for anyone that had knowledge of HVAC "rules". I have a typical split level 2000 sq ft home. Basement is family room (soon to be theater), laundry/half bath, garage, and furnace room. There was previously no return air in the basement. I've been pondering putting an access into it for better air flow from the the theater, but I am a little concerned that there may have been a reason for not having return air from "down under". Garage exhaust fumes, gas leaks from HW, furnace, or dyer that may enter the system? Probably just relied on natural air flow through gaps to keep the air exchanged from downstairs. But even since sealing the room I have noticed a difference in the air flow and how fast it heats up.
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post #130 of 149 Old 03-13-2011, 07:28 AM
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Davey: I would think as long as your return air can somehow feed back into your whole house system, you should be fine. The easier it is to do so, the more airflow you'll get. I don't think you'd want to dump externally of the house or else that same amount of air will want to come into your house. Almost all houses have enough air moving between the inside and outside already!

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post #131 of 149 Old 03-13-2011, 08:17 AM
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I have been reading this thread and have a very basic question. To get adequate air exchange in a sealed room, I am assuming that you need both a return and a supply with two fans (one to push air and one to pull air). It sounds like from Ted's response that the supply and returns should be as far as part for the best air exchange. Is this correct?
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post #132 of 149 Old 03-13-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_2008 View Post

I have been reading this thread and have a very basic question. To get adequate air exchange in a sealed room, I am assuming that you need both a return and a supply with two fans (one to push air and one to pull air). It sounds like from Ted's response that the supply and returns should be as far as part for the best air exchange. Is this correct?

Generally speaking, yes.
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post #133 of 149 Old 03-24-2011, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by acex008 View Post

The one in the diagram is exhaust...

OK, I don't get it. If the DV is exhaust, it's still pulling air from the bottom which is not as hot as the one from the top. I'm brand-new to this, so if you could explain that better, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
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post #134 of 149 Old 03-25-2011, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_2008 View Post

I have been reading this thread and have a very basic question. To get adequate air exchange in a sealed room, I am assuming that you need both a return and a supply with two fans (one to push air and one to pull air). It sounds like from Ted's response that the supply and returns should be as far as part for the best air exchange. Is this correct?

Not only do you need supply and return, but they need to be equalized. That means that if your supply is delivering 150 CFM (cubic feet/min) of air into the room, your return must be able to eject or evacuate 150 CFM out of the room. If the two are not equalized, you will have issues. For example, assume your supply is furnishing 150 CFM and you have no return. The room will quickly become pressurized and air will attempt to escape however it can (through door seals, crevices, etc.). Since its escape will always be lower in CFM's than the delivery of new air, the HVAC supply will slowly become restricted (just like when you are blowing up a balloon, the "fuller" it gets, the harder it is to keep blowing). Soon, your room will stop accepting new air.

The other issue is that even if the supply and return are equalized for CFM delivery, if you are using an inline fan on the return side (to suck air from room), it should be wired to only come on when there is air delivery into the room. If it is running all the time, you will have the opposite problem, namely the room having negative pressure. For about $45, you can buy a pressure sensor that gets installed into the supply duct; when the sensor has airflow, it sends voltage to the return fan. Of course, you can install 2 fans, one on return and one on supply - but typically the supply side is triggered off the main hvac system blower and it's not a good idea to pressurize supply ductwork ad hoc. Otherwise you may have whistling and whooshing all over the place.
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post #135 of 149 Old 03-26-2011, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_2008 View Post

I have been reading this thread and have a very basic question. To get adequate air exchange in a sealed room, I am assuming that you need both a return and a supply with two fans (one to push air and one to pull air). It sounds like from Ted's response that the supply and returns should be as far as part for the best air exchange. Is this correct?

Based on Ted's recommendation this is exactly what I did. I have supply and return dead vents built into one big enclosure outside the room, each with their own inline fan. My return slot vent register is at the front right of the room in a soffit to pull hot air out. My supply register is in the back left of the room incorporated into one of the columns near the floor. There are access panels to each inline fan outside the room. Unfortunately the inspector required the panels, so now we have to make them out of DD/GG and somehow get a good seal when they are screwed in place. There will be one Lutron Ra2 switch to activate both fans, and I'm having the AV guy tie that into the rest of the theater lighting system with a Graphik Eye. I will eventually post pics when work slows down.
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post #136 of 149 Old 03-26-2011, 11:12 AM
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Thanks for all the responses.
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post #137 of 149 Old 03-27-2011, 09:55 PM
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Does every room need a dead vent or only certain ones? My room will be around 19x13, will I need one?
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post #138 of 149 Old 03-28-2011, 09:29 AM
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Not necessarily. You can also use the soffits as mufflers, but the sound room(s) will need some sort of ventilation treatment. One for each supply and return

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post #139 of 149 Old 07-20-2011, 08:01 AM
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Hi Ted,
You stated that this was an older design pic, is there a newer pic?
Is it possible to have the fan on one of the ends? If the fan is located within the enclosure and the fan motor goes that means tearing the assembly apart.
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post #140 of 149 Old 07-20-2011, 11:17 AM
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My fan motors are in the enclosure, but there are 2 access panels for maintenance. If the fan dies, it will be painful but possible to swap it out. I had the panels made from the cut out squares of DD/GG and screwed that to a more attractive decorative plate to go on the wall of the vent. The fans are much louder than I thought they'd be, so you'd definitely want to keep them in the enclosure.
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post #141 of 149 Old 11-14-2011, 06:07 PM
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I've been meaning to post these pics of my dead-vent construction for awhile now.

Doorway to the theater is on the left, and you can see the skeleton of the dead vent centered and lit. Above the doorway is an HVAC trunk leading to the floor above. They wanted to tie this into the theater originally, to which the answer was a resounding NO!!! This shrunk my theater depth by a couple of feet You can see that there is an upper and lower cavity, and these were separated eventually by plywood and 5/8 drywall double layer or double 5/8 plywood, I forget which.


DSC_6177 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr


The rear wall and ceiling of the vent chamber are DD-GG construction, and gaps were all eventually caulked.


DSC_6175 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

This is a view from the back of the theater room out the same door. On the left side of the pic you see a framed column which will eventually be covered in fabric. Trunk for the eventual return is in the framed false soffit at the top, also later covered in fabric.


DSC_6178 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

This is a view of the back wall of the theater from the stage area. Holes have been punched through the wall next to the door. The supply is the lower duct, and the return is above at the level of the soffit. The return run terminates in the front stage-right of the theater to allow maximum separation. On the left there is a minisplit for additional cooling, but this is usually not necessary with the vents running.


DSC_6189 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr


DSC_6192 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

A slab of DD-GG has been applied in the middle of the top and bottom dead vents, to which the in-line fans have been attached.


DSC_6195 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr


DSC_6193 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

Here is a more wide-angle view of the equipment closet on the left, the doorway, and the dead-vent on the right. I don't have a finished picture, but the whole dead-vent space was constructed as an extension of the soundproofed room envelope. The back wall, front wall, right side wall, and ceiling are all DD-GG. The horizontal separation as well as the vertical slats in the vents are DD-GG as well.


DSC_6198 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr

Ideally I would have loved more volume to work with, but it works well as created. From outside the room you hear the fans running, and you can faintly hear them inside the room during very quiet scenes. The fans are accessible for servicing via decorative panels. I'm glad we did this, as the fans were too loud running at full tilt, and the HVAC guy was able to quickly adjust them for me to a tolerable level.

Here are a few pics of the finished theater. I have some slot vents that we decided not to install. The flex-duct just terminates in the rear left column and front right soffit with airflow right through the fabric (FR-701). The lighting and seating are set up such that I haven't seen any dust accumulation, and I like the clean look. Absolutely no whistling noise either.


DSC_9205 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr


DSC_9209 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr


DSC_9207 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr


DSC_9208 by matthewcummings99, on Flickr
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post #142 of 149 Old 11-15-2011, 07:16 AM
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Those vents look just like the drawing! Great job, and thanks for taking the time to post the pics. Very helpful.

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post #143 of 149 Old 07-17-2012, 02:20 AM
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Hi Ted, What is the typical level of sound reduction you can achieve with both the dead vent and soffit vent? I'm just about to install some form of ventilation into a small rehearsal space which we have built. I have seen these, which claim up to 42dB at certain frequencies:

http://www.vents.co.uk/acoustic.asp

I'm guessing the sound reduction would be greatly improved using your design?

Many thanks,

Rich
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post #144 of 149 Old 11-04-2013, 01:53 PM
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How are you guys mounting your fans within the dead vent? I have a couple of Fantech FR150's for the job and would like to see how everyone has them situated? Secured with a bracket, Hanging from the flex? Something else?

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post #145 of 149 Old 03-21-2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Hi Brian,


The "Dead Vent" is a stand-alone structure in an adjacent room or perhaps behind the screen wall. Looks like a phone booth.


I believe you're referring to a soffit that is being used as a muffler. THis Soffit Muffler can't have additional holes in it. We want the sound level to drop for every foot of travel through the muffler. If we have holes along the way, new sound is constantly re-introduced into the muffler, defeating its function.


You wwould have to use surface mounted pucks or build backer boxes for each can light or build a split soffit that is 1/2 muffler and 1/2 lighting.


Make sense?

Would this work for a return line... Take a 6" or 8" flex pipe and run it all around the room in an open soffit ( a soffit that is filled with insulation and is open to the room? What I was thinking is to build a 2x4 frame work soffit and then run the flex inside the soffit with fiberglass insulation stuffed and wrapped around it.), the ducting would then exit the room. This would give me a least 50' of length of ducting for the return. I would then cover the soffit with black acoustically transparent cloth. The soffit would be built into a already sealed room with isolated ceiling and OSB/ GG / Drywall. Does this make sense? Would this work or is there a better way?

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post #146 of 149 Old 03-23-2014, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
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How are you guys mounting your fans within the dead vent? I have a couple of Fantech FR150's for the job and would like to see how everyone has them situated? Secured with a bracket, Hanging from the flex? Something else?

There is a bracket made for this purpose but may need to be damped a little as it is a rigid mount. Perhaps a rubber membrane clamped between bracket and deadbeat box sides?

http://www.amazon.com/Fantech-FR150-Installation-Mounting-Bracket/dp/B00G9IOR88
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post #147 of 149 Old 03-24-2014, 06:04 AM
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try to avoid a hard connection, is this going in vertical or horizontal? You may need to rig something up with bungee cords or if horizontal set it on a piece of foam.
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post #148 of 149 Old 03-24-2014, 08:41 AM
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So, will two dead vents (supply/return) move enough air to keep the room cool or warm depending on the season? I was initially planning on two soffit muffled supplies directly connected to the home's HVAC and one soffit muffled return connected directly to the home's HVAC. Would I get the same room conditioning results with dead vents but an increase in whole house sound reduction? Thanks.

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post #149 of 149 Old 07-23-2014, 07:44 AM
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Great Thread.
I pretty much finished my HT /multipurpose room. After 3 attempts - I finally have the sound (namely the low frequency) containment at an acceptable point and don't want to lose that - however I want/need to ventilate it. See (front , back and layout) pics below -
(a1) Where should I put the vents?
Room is about 22' (front to back) x12' (side to side) x 6.5' tall. I have about 15" of space between the desk and adj. wall (this space is pretty much in the center of the room's width)- perhaps I can build a dead vent there.
The other side of that wall is the equip room, which leads into the HT hallway (see pic)
In the front, I have a soffit where I keep the projector screen - it's about 11" high, behind that front wall is the wood frame and then the concrete slab (so nowhere to exchange air with) - however behind the door shown on the left is a closet which opens to the main part of the basement. Being that the screen is AT - can I put the vent behind it- so that it's opposite the vent in the back of the room?
(a2) Which outside areas should I exchange air with- (see layout pic below)
(b) What should I buy?- I see the Fantech FX6XL and FG6XL fans mentioned, however being that the dates they were mentioned are old - I'll ask - is there a newer model which is more recommended (more energy efficient? quieter?). What about this one(http://www.amazon.com/VenTech-IF6CF6...ds=392+cfm+fan) - seems to have good reviews, and people say it's whisper quiet
(c) side Q- how large does a hole need to be to allow Low Frequency to escape - I ask b/c in the front space mentioned (between desk and adj wall) - I currently have two 2"x4" openings (for cabling) which I have not (yet?) put putty backing - and nevertheless I don't notice any LFE rumblings upstairs.
THANKS! any help is appreciated (and hopefully Q's (b) and (c) will help others with the same Q's)
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Name:	HT - front - almost done  July 23 14.jpg
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Last edited by cgott42; 07-23-2014 at 08:21 AM.
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Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

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