Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #451 of 1242 Old 11-22-2010, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Thanks KNKKNK and Craig.

The play foam tiles are here: http://www.wesellmats.com/

I used the eps on the walls for exactly the reasons you state....but also because fiberglass provides a good medium to grow mold. I was under the impression that concrete won't support mold growth. I was a little worried about having puddles of water under the plastic....but not due to condensation. It would be caused by leaks from the cracks in the floor.

How about Dryloc-ing/sealing the floor with foam tiles directly on top? The tiles would provide a thermal barrier, but the many seams would be semi-permeable. The Dryloc would prevent water from seeping in from under the floor....without creating a space where the water would never be able to come out of.

There are tons of people using delta-fl and dri-core that bascially have the same space to collect moisture. Is there really a difference between that and plastic film on the floor? If you measure the relative humidities, wouldn't they be nearly the same?

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 1242 Old 11-22-2010, 06:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve_Vai_rules's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The land of Ice and Snow
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

AM.. I believe the difference between the plastic and the PolyStyrene is that the EPS acts as a thermal barrier so the warm interior air doesnt contact the cold concrete thus preventing condesation.. You can still get mold on your walls even with the EPS if your seams arent properly sealed and warm air is allowed to infiltrate to the concrete.. Hence the need to seal the seams and edges with tape or expanding foam. You dont get the same thermal barrier with just plastic sheeting.. so the condensation can be trapped by the plastic. I'm not familiar with the "Play foam tiles" your speaking of and they may offer a thermal barrier that would also prevent condensation, however I would consider that any moisture that does penetrate the slab/foundation, or even the EPS for that matter, needs to dry to the interior and the plastic will prevent this from happening. For this reason I personally dont think that the use of plastic sheeting in a finished basement is ever a good Idea other than "Under" the slab as a vapor barrier.

This is correct.

The foam is semipermeable so the water can move dissipate and dry out before mold can grow. It also acts as a thermal barrier. the plastic is just a stop and will allow moisture from condensation. And you dont want water working away at concrete. you also dont want mold. And if the plastic isn't an air tight seal then you can get some pretty serious mold spores floating around.. not cool if you got kids.. and say that plastic tears or something happens to puncture it then that water will spill through the puncture and sit on top of the plastic and have no chance of dissipation and thus really big problems. especially if you happen to get a crack or serious leakage under your floor. unless your basement is underwater then you dont have to worry about the foam. You would likely be surprised about the amount of moisture that concrete will hold and you get a temperature differential then its just going to deposit that moisture on the surface.

sorry i didnt reply to this sooner, my bad


Matt

"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live." - George Carlin
Steve_Vai_rules is offline  
post #453 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 03:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fotto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: N.E. OH
Posts: 1,864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Andreas, I also did a lot of research before doing my basement. One of the things I learned and was surprised of is just how much water vapor leaches through a typical basement slab during the course of a day (it was some number of gallons). Just about all the articles I read (that appeared legit based on studies etc) did not recommend use of a plastic barrier, as Matt/KNKKNK/cuzed2 indicated. That vapor has to go somewhere.

I chose to go with Dricore as it has an airspace which encourages airflow and evaporation of that surface moisture/vapor, and preferred it over Delta-FL just due to assembly. I believe Mike Holmes endorses use of an EPS first layer and then OSB/Ply layer on that of that, but I was swayed again to the dricore considering what would happen in either case if you had a larger water event. Probably in a pickle either way but dricore seemed more forgiving.
fotto is offline  
post #454 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Ok, these are all good points. I agree with both of you, Matt and Floyd. Here's my synopsis, but I'm looking for discussion so please give me your thoughts!

Plastic sheet: Seals well. Water from slab will not evaporate. Mold will grow. Does not prevent condensation on top of plastic because it is not a thermal barrier.

drycore/Delta-FL: seals well, except for the edges. Water will evaporate around the 1/4" edges. Mold won't grow.

EPS/foam: seals well, but is semi-breathable. Mold won't grow. Prevents condensation due to thermal barrier.

Andreas' problems with above:
  • Gallons per day can come from the slab. 1/4" gap around drycore/delta and semi-breathable foam will not let this water evaporate. Relative humidity will be greater than 50%, so mold can grow.
  • drycore/delta has no thermal barrier. Hot humid air can go around the edges and condense on the cold concrete. This will increase humidity within the space between the floor and drycore/delta in warmer months.

Andreas' positive notes:
  • Floors don't tend to be a problem since there isn't fiberglass or wood involved (unlike walls). Floors tend to be a problems when flooding occurs, which is a different issue entirely.
  • Some people do not even have a problem with carpet directly on the slab, which is likely the riskiest method in regards to mold.
  • drycore/delta allows pooling water to go somewhere. This water can run downhill hopefully to the sump pump. If walls are framed directly on the ground, the only way for the water to go to the sump is through the doorway (assuming no threshhold). If walls are built on top of drycore/delta, sound isolation becomes an issue (also see Logan's thread why this may be bad). Plastic film does not allow this pooled water run off.

Now, every situation is different. I seem to have "wicking" or capillary action of water coming through the slab at cracks. I have no standing water, just dampness at those spots. I would like to FastPlug those cracks and then go over the floor with Drylok. I have a new French drain that seems to work well after rains. If I can just stop the wicking, I shouldn't have any water coming in. The play foam tiles are made of EVA foam which is a vapor and thermal barrier. There are seams between the tiles that could make is "semipermeable". EVA foam doesn't support mold and won't be ruined by flooding.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #455 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 06:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
AirBenji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Argh there is so much to consider and there are quite a few options! I am struggling with this as well! I was planning on simple carpet and pad over slab, but you guys are scaring me...might have to rethink that one...keep us posted on what you decide, AM. I'd like to stop by this weekend and see your progress!

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
AirBenji is offline  
post #456 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 06:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
premiertrussman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I have a better solution....Invent a shrink ray, and shrink 50 people and pay them to live under your floor with mops and fans to keep everything dry. Problem solved.

Shades of Grey Theater

Live: Hero of Cannton 

Currently Playing: CoD Black Ops II

premiertrussman is offline  
post #457 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Ben, I haven't heard many problems with floors except in flooding situations. You already have carpet down and it is all good. Your basement is dry anyway! The nice thing about carpet is that if you have a dehumidifier, it will dry the air and the carpet all the way through -- it won't trap moisture. If you don't run a dehumidifier, then you are more likely to have a problem. I'll be around this weekend working on the theater, so PM me your schedule.

PT: you are full of great ideas! Ha ha Maybe you can be the first to be hired and go through the shrink ray?

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #458 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 06:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
premiertrussman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

PT: you are full of great ideas! Ha ha Maybe you can be the first to be hired and go through the shrink ray?

As long as you can shrink pizza and beer too im up for it!

Shades of Grey Theater

Live: Hero of Cannton 

Currently Playing: CoD Black Ops II

premiertrussman is offline  
post #459 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 07:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fotto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: N.E. OH
Posts: 1,864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Ok, these are all good points. I agree with both of you, Matt and Floyd. Here's my synopsis, but I'm looking for discussion so please give me your thoughts!

Plastic sheet: Seals well. Water from slab will not evaporate. Mold will grow. Does not prevent condensation on top of plastic because it is not a thermal barrier.

drycore/Delta-FL: seals well, except for the edges. Water will evaporate around the 1/4" edges. Mold won't grow.

EPS/foam: seals well, but is semi-breathable. Mold won't grow. Prevents condensation due to thermal barrier.

Andreas' problems with above:
  • Gallons per day can come from the slab. 1/4" gap around drycore/delta and semi-breathable foam will not let this water evaporate. Relative humidity will be greater than 50%, so mold can grow.
  • drycore/delta has no thermal barrier. Hot humid air can go around the edges and condense on the cold concrete. This will increase humidity within the space between the floor and drycore/delta in warmer months.

Andreas' positive notes:
  • Floors don't tend to be a problem since there isn't fiberglass or wood involved (unlike walls). Floors tend to be a problems when flooding occurs, which is a different issue entirely.
  • Some people do not even have a problem with carpet directly on the slab, which is likely the riskiest method in regards to mold.
  • drycore/delta allows pooling water to go somewhere. This water can run downhill hopefully to the sump pump. If walls are framed directly on the ground, the only way for the water to go to the sump is through the doorway (assuming no threshhold). If walls are built on top of drycore/delta, sound isolation becomes an issue (also see Logan's thread why this may be bad). Plastic film does not allow this pooled water run off.

Now, every situation is different. I seem to have "wicking" or capillary action of water coming through the slab at cracks. I have no standing water, just dampness at those spots. I would like to FastPlug those cracks and then go over the floor with Drylok. I have a new French drain that seems to work well after rains. If I can just stop the wicking, I shouldn't have any water coming in. The play foam tiles are made of EVA foam which is a vapor and thermal barrier. There are seams between the tiles that could make is "semipermeable". EVA foam doesn't support mold and won't be ruined by flooding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBenji View Post

Argh there is so much to consider and there are quite a few options! I am struggling with this as well! I was planning on simple carpet and pad over slab, but you guys are scaring me...might have to rethink that one...keep us posted on what you decide, AM. I'd like to stop by this weekend and see your progress!

It has been suggested in many sources to first test to see what moisture is actually coming through your slab. One way is to tape down a piece of plastic and let sit for a day or two and see what the moisture/condensation level is in the sealed portion. If the builder installed a vapor barrier between the underside of slab and gravel, the moisture penetration may be minimal, although those barriers are normally not too reliable due to tears that occur during construction etc. Of course, that test is not gospel as conditions will vary depending on season, conditions in the house etc.

I think you have a pretty good synopsis Andreas. Dricore counts on some airflow around the edges of the flooring and suggest keeping your baseboard up a bit to help with that. To further increase that air movement, you can cut some register openings as well. They have a pretty good FAQ on their site if you haven't seen it.
Regarding the thermal barrier comment on Dricore/Delta, if there is none (I agree it is minimal), then the slab temp should be more closely equalized to the room temp (something less than room temp, but warmer than if the flooring was a thermal barrier) which would therefore be less prone to condensation due to temp diff, correct?

I really haven't looked into the matts you linked to so don't have an opinion on that approach. Here are a couple links that should provide you many hours reading if you haven't already found them:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings...s/db/35017.pdf
(see fig. 15 as example of XPS construction technique)
http://index.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cgi-bin/...nrc-cnrc.gc.ca

I seem to recall another topic that may (or may not) be interesting. In a typical basement you'll have a foot or two above grade, with the remainder below grade. The portion above grade and below grade (to the level of your frost line) present the biggest opportunity for condensation in a finished wall system, due to effect of frost line and outer ground soil temp. As you go lower into your basement the temperature goes up since it's below the frost line.
fotto is offline  
post #460 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Floyd, I think you have some good insight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

Regarding the thermal barrier comment on Dricore/Delta, if there is none (I agree it is minimal), then the slab temp should be more closely equalized to the room temp (something less than room temp, but warmer than if the flooring was a thermal barrier) which would therefore be less prone to condensation due to temp diff, correct?

The reason the slab will warm up near the temp of the air is that the warm air is contacting the cold slab. The warm air will then cool (give off heat to the slab), creating a higher relative humidity and/or condensation. The problem is that the slab will cool a lot of air! You are indirectly heating the outside of your house through conduction of the slab and soil.

Since Dricore relies on air circulation, I see some issues with it, however, I'll mention again that floors don't seem to have the same problems with mold like walls with encapsulated fiberglass. I think that is the big no no. I'll check out the Dricore FAQ.

I have just put down some plastic film on the floor as of this morning. I can pretty much guarantee it is coming from the cracks in the slab since they are visually moist! I have a super duper dehumidifier in the basement that will take care of the humidity coming from the air side.

I have looked at that document you sent, although I'll look through it again. It is the reason I went with EPS against the walls.

The EVA foam tiles I am leaning towards are the same ones used in kids play rooms. They are soft and cushy which should be nice to walk on. I received a black sample last night. It is more of a dark charcoal color which I think will work well.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #461 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 08:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fotto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: N.E. OH
Posts: 1,864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

The reason the slab will warm up near the temp of the air is that the warm air is contacting the cold slab. The warm air will then cool (give off heat to the slab), creating a higher relative humidity and/or condensation. The problem is that the slab will cool a lot of air! You are indirectly heating the outside of your house through conduction of the slab and soil.

Since Dricore relies on air circulation, I see some issues with it, however, I'll mention again that floors don't seem to have the same problems with mold like walls with encapsulated fiberglass. I think that is the big no no. I'll check out the Dricore FAQ.

Definitely agreed that we are heating the slab with the dricore approach. Interesting that the first link shows construction example using XPS/OSB or Ply and doesn't show a dricore installation example I can say though that my basement floor is very comfortable from a heat perspective at least on the carpeted areas.

So, I'm happy with my dricore, but I would have gone the XPS route with my walls if I would have been armed with more info at the time. My local auth endorsed standard stick framing (set off the wall) with R-13 batts/kraft vapor barrier. I asked for steps during construction for water mitigation including inside/outside footer drains to sump pumps, and backfilling with gravel, and plan to run a dehumidifier in summer, so hopefully will be OK. If I had to pick a single a do-over though, XPS on the walls would be it.
fotto is offline  
post #462 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 11:55 AM
Advanced Member
 
Steve_Vai_rules's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The land of Ice and Snow
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
You could do a hybrid system. lay down the dricore directly on the slab then lay down a layer of sealed rigid foam with tapped seams on top.. if you have a brain installed that leads to your sump pump/weeping tile then you will remove the larger quantities of water build up. plus you will have a thermal barrier provided by the rigid foam. you could lay osb on top of that and then your play tiles and be good to go.

in reality though if you are having severe moisture problems through cracks you may have to take more drastic measures such as jacking up those cracked areas and laying additional pea gravel and pouring new concrete.

You could of course go really crazy and jack out the entire floor lay dig down lay a super thick bed of pea gravel then lay a uniform sheet of really heavy plastic like 8 mil. then pour an entirely new slab. lay rigid foam on top of that with taped seams. you would have the driest basement around.. but of course that would be expensive.. though its all relative of course.

I would look at a hybrid setup after you do a really good job of sealing those cracks. personally i would also jack the cracks out and pour new concrete (with that concrete adhesive epoxy stuff so the new concrete adheres to the old)..

I come from the school of thought when it comes to home construction that if it's worth doing, it's worth over doing...

Also though concrete can contain huge amounts of moisture the second you lay down a thermal barrier the moisture tends to stay inside the concrete versus pooling on the surface.. the temperature differentials are what really drag the moisture out of the core.. so that is why rigid foam can be used.. as long as you keep that air out of the way by sealing all seams... It seems it is really the cracks that are your biggest issue and when dealing with a house as old as you have you may have to make some drastic repairs like taking a jackhammer to the cracks in the floors and laying down new concrete...


Matt

"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live." - George Carlin
Steve_Vai_rules is offline  
post #463 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Floyd: I think you are right. EPS on the walls would have been the way to go, but what's done is done. If it causes a problem in the future, you can deal with it, but it doesn't make sense to fix what is not broken.

Matt: Hold on a minute! I have some dampness on the floor and now I need to remove the whole floor and start over?? Oh man! This isn't water pooling on the floor or flooding the basement. It is from capillary action through the cracks. We have clay soil that will probably never be dry, so any crack that has some fine dirt in it will pull enough water to wet out that fine dirt. Once I take a wire brush to the cracks and fill them in, I shouldn't have a problem. Then, when I put some Drylok on, it should be 100% taken care of.

Now, there are a lot of advantages to the foam tiles I'm using: 5/8" tall, so very little loss of height; no need for a ply or OSB layer; can't be damaged by water/flooding like wood, laminate, carpet; thermal and vapor barrier; soft and cushiony under your feet; easy to install; and cheap at $1/sqft. I have the option of using an area rug over the top of it too. I also can just pick it up and look underneath for water. If there is a ton of water, I can always go crazy with a jackhammer.

I'm not saying it is 100% guaranteed to work, but damn it is cheap, easy and not damaged by water.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #464 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 12:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fotto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: N.E. OH
Posts: 1,864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Vai_rules View Post

if you have a brain installed

Matt

Sometimes I think that's what I really need
fotto is offline  
post #465 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 12:54 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve_Vai_rules's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The land of Ice and Snow
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

Sometimes I think that's what I really need

lol, whoops.. my bad.. .hahahahaha

Matt

"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live." - George Carlin
Steve_Vai_rules is offline  
post #466 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Nice! I saw that, but figured out what it was supposed to say. Ha ha! You should always have that installed in case you need it.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #467 of 1242 Old 11-23-2010, 01:11 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve_Vai_rules's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The land of Ice and Snow
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Floyd: I think you are right. EPS on the walls would have been the way to go, but what's done is done. If it causes a problem in the future, you can deal with it, but it doesn't make sense to fix what is not broken.

Matt: Hold on a minute! I have some dampness on the floor and now I need to remove the whole floor and start over?? Oh man! This isn't water pooling on the floor or flooding the basement. It is from capillary action through the cracks. We have clay soil that will probably never be dry, so any crack that has some fine dirt in it will pull enough water to wet out that fine dirt. Once I take a wire brush to the cracks and fill them in, I shouldn't have a problem. Then, when I put some Drylok on, it should be 100% taken care of.

Now, there are a lot of advantages to the foam tiles I'm using: 5/8" tall, so very little loss of height; no need for a ply or OSB layer; can't be damaged by water/flooding like wood, laminate, carpet; thermal and vapor barrier; soft and cushiony under your feet; easy to install; and cheap at $1/sqft. I have the option of using an area rug over the top of it too. I also can just pick it up and look underneath for water. If there is a ton of water, I can always go crazy with a jackhammer.

I'm not saying it is 100% guaranteed to work, but damn it is cheap, easy and not damaged by water.

I'm not saying you should jack out the entire floor.. just jack out the major cracks.... I lived in an older home that had similar problems and eventually i was just sick and tired of having a dehumidifier and leaks and dampness and just decided to take a jack hammer to the larger cracks and sealed the smaller ones. made a huge difference.. was kind of a pain but in the long run it was worth it.. well actually for the people who are there now it was worth it.. hahaha but if the cracks are smaller and there really isn't any loss of concrete from chipping then u should be okay with just the sealant.. just be aware that the sealant will itself pull apart quite easily if there is any additional shifts or heave (though for a hundred year old home that really shouldn't be an issue)..

I would say you probably wont run into problems with just your foam tiles. I still dont think it is the best solution but it is inexpensive and is the easiest to maintain option. Just keep an eye on the temperature differences and make sure there isn't any surface water and you are good.. The big thing with this approach is that if there is moisture that gets to sit it isn't in an airtight space so mold can grow on the surface and those spores can escape.

It really is a battle of compromises. so there is no real correct answer or suggestion. I am sure you wont run into problems just laying down the foam tiles right on the slab and sealing the cracks. Like everything in our homes, we have to keep up with the maintenance of things. As long as you check under the tiles periodically (which is easy enough to do) then i don't see any major issues....

During the spring thaws though do keep an eye out for what is going on.




Matt

"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live." - George Carlin
Steve_Vai_rules is offline  
post #468 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Matt, thanks for the input. I guess it depends on what you call large cracks. I have a bunch, but they are all smallish. I think the combination of Fastplug on the larger areas and Drylok for the hairline cracks, I should be ok. In fact, I checked the two pieces of plastic I put down yesterday. I put one on an area that doesn't have visible dampness. That is still dry. The one over the damp area seems the same. There is no condensation on the inside of the plastic. I think those are good signs. I also didn't mention that there were a couple of damp areas that I used regular concrete on that were adjacent to the French trenches I concreted over. These are now dry.

What do you think are the disadvantages of the EVA foam tiles?

This morning I actually did some work on the room. I put up about 1/4 of the clips for the ceiling. I can only do jobs in the early morning that won't wake my wife.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #469 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 06:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
premiertrussman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
All this talk about concrete and sealant reminds me of an apartment i renovated once....Someone an poked a hole in the bottom of the fiberglass tub. (because whoever installed it, didnt use a mortar base, but thats a different issue all together) Anyway...the tenants solution to the hole in the tub was the pour quickrete in the bottom of it, shove one of those utility room sink drain strainers down through it so it would still drain, and then painted the inside of the tub with that basement sealer waterproofing paint stuff. I really wish i had pictures of it....

I had 6 apartments with retarded crap like that in it... unfortunately that story wasnt the worst of them....so anyway...what was i saying...oh yeah...just do that for your floor...poke some holes fill them with concrete and then paint it...im sure all your moisture problems will be fixed then.

Shades of Grey Theater

Live: Hero of Cannton 

Currently Playing: CoD Black Ops II

premiertrussman is offline  
post #470 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 06:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
AirBenji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Hey Andreas - just wanted to be sure you're aware that there is a special Drylok paint for floors rather than walls. I'm not 100% sure this is it, but here's a link: http://www.ugl.com/drylokMasonry/flo...exConcrete.php. I was reading about it the other day, but there was no direct link to the product - you might just want to call UGL and ask exactly what to use...

Hope all is well! Enjoy Turkey Day!

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
AirBenji is offline  
post #471 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
PT: My damp spots on my floor are caused by wicking, not by hydrostatic pressure. A good test for this is that the areas that are damp do not pool water. They wet out the dust/dirt in the crack. It is just like if you put a paper towel in an otherwise dry crack. The papertowel gets wet, but nothing else. Now, if the water table was higher than my floor and water was being pushed in, I would get pools of water or flooding. We had a crapload of rain a month or so ago where it rained for 1+ week straight. I didn't have any more damp spots on the floor than now.

Are you saying I should take out my whole floor instead of trying Drylok??? ....or were you still suggesting I work on the shrink ray device?

Ben: I will take a look at the correct Drylok for the floors. I did see the special floor paints, but I think that is for a floor that will be bare concrete. It comes in pretty colors and it made to be directly walked upon. I'm not sure if that is right for my situation, but will check them out! Calling them would be a good idea, thanks.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #472 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 06:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
premiertrussman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post


Are you saying I should take out my whole floor instead of trying Drylok??? ....or were you still suggesting I work on the shrink ray device?

I'm not actually sure what i was suggesting....I'm mostly just bored at work and felt like telling a story! :P

Shades of Grey Theater

Live: Hero of Cannton 

Currently Playing: CoD Black Ops II

premiertrussman is offline  
post #473 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I'm sure you have checked out: http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/

Sounds like your tub "fix" should have been on there!

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #474 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 06:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
premiertrussman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: North Central Indiana
Posts: 2,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

I'm sure you have checked out: http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/

Sounds like your tub "fix" should have been on there!


Those are a riot! Unfortunately the things I've seen, sadly are worse than a lot of the stuff on there...its amazing what people will do.

Shades of Grey Theater

Live: Hero of Cannton 

Currently Playing: CoD Black Ops II

premiertrussman is offline  
post #475 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 12:50 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve_Vai_rules's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The land of Ice and Snow
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Matt, thanks for the input. I guess it depends on what you call large cracks. I have a bunch, but they are all smallish. I think the combination of Fastplug on the larger areas and Drylok for the hairline cracks, I should be ok. In fact, I checked the two pieces of plastic I put down yesterday. I put one on an area that doesn't have visible dampness. That is still dry. The one over the damp area seems the same. There is no condensation on the inside of the plastic. I think those are good signs. I also didn't mention that there were a couple of damp areas that I used regular concrete on that were adjacent to the French trenches I concreted over. These are now dry.

What do you think are the disadvantages of the EVA foam tiles?

This morning I actually did some work on the room. I put up about 1/4 of the clips for the ceiling. I can only do jobs in the early morning that won't wake my wife.

The biggest thing is that they aren't a permanent solution and they also aren't a thermal barrier as they can still let air through, though in this case that seems to be a good thing..

I would say if you have had extensive rains and aren't getting anymore penetration then usual then the sealant will be fine with those tiles.

and if those interior french trenches are doing their job then likely you won't have any real problems.

Reading through what information you have posted i don't see there really being any problems with your current plan of attack.. Just note though that taping down a piece of plastic on bare floor for a day or so is not a conclusive test.. that would only show if you had really serious problems.. These kinds of things develop over weeks and months. But again i think your plan of attack with sealant and the foam tiles is pretty okay for this application and i dont see any major problems unless the water table rises or some other very serious issues. I wouldn't say this is the solution for everyone, care does need to be taken to make sure you aren't exacerbating the problem especially if someone is wanting to go for a permanent solution.



Matt

"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live." - George Carlin
Steve_Vai_rules is offline  
post #476 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 02:41 PM
Member
 
pterpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

. I have a monster dehumidifier down there right now that keeps the basement from smelling musty. You need some sort of dehumidifier in the basement. I have thishttp://www.allergybuyersclubshopping...tml?itemId=336)

....

i would like to ask a question please
i have about 100 sq/foot and i have a several crack ( at least 10) but already been patch by a Professional done and i been paid over 5k to install a drain title around my basement with a sump pump and a small dehumidifier running , but i saw on some of the crack already been fix some of the yellow look , and the tool that i left in basement rusted , the dehumidifier that you just mention is easy to install it and how to install it , can you tell me please
is this safe for me to star build HT in the condition like this or i need take care of the moisture problem first
please, help
thank you
pterpm is offline  
post #477 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 02:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve_Vai_rules's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The land of Ice and Snow
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by pterpm View Post

i would like to ask a question please
i have about 100 sq/foot and i have a several crack ( at least 10) but already been patch by a Professional done and i been paid over 5k to install a drain title around my basement with a sump pump and a small dehumidifier running , but i saw on some of the crack already been fix some of the yellow look , and the tool that i left in basement rusted , the dehumidifier that you just mention is easy to install it and how to install it , can you tell me please
is this safe for me to star build HT in the condition like this or i need take care of the moisture problem first
please, help
thank you

take care of the moisture problem first.. although sometimes you are limited in what you can do based on cost/benefit.. sometimes it isn't worth it to pull up the whole slab and pour a fresh one... also 100sq ft is a pretty small space... are you sure those are the correct measurements?

if there is still moisture it may not be the best idea to lay down a floor (my home theater has an area rug over unfinished concrete as i still havent decided on a flooring option yet, well actually my whole basement is unfinished concrete.. lol but for now its all good). you may need to also dig around your foundation and get additional water prevention treatments done as there may be water running down the wall.. it's hard to say without pictures.. though we should be careful not to hijack this thread...


Matt

"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live." - George Carlin
Steve_Vai_rules is offline  
post #478 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Matt, I consider it as permanent as anything else. In fact, I think my idea to use play foam tiles is kinda inspired. I haven't seen any build threads using them. They actually seal up pretty well at the seams, so there should be very little to no air movement. It is like using EPS, but without needing to put OSB/ply on top and then another layer of actual flooring. It is the only flooring outside of bare concrete, vinyl or tile that won't be ruined in a flood or attacked by mold. I admit that not everyone will be into the look, but I think it will look quite good. We will see what people think about the looks when I post pics of it installed in the hopefully near future.

Oh, and I agree that JUST flooring is not the answer to all (or even most) basement moisture problems. I installed a new, flushable french drain around the inside perimeter of the basement with the help of a concrete saw and jackhammer. I also have EPS on the walls and a monster dehumidifier.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #479 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
AndreasMergner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
pterpm: you might want to make your own thread. I think you will get more answers than on my thread....but in any case, I would agree with Matt that you need to figure out what is going on before you start your build.

I don't know who did your basement moisture work. If he guarantees his work, I would have him come back and take a look.

I also don't know what a yellow crack means. Are you saying it is leaking there? If so, you'll want to figure out why.

Most small dehumidifiers will not be able to keep up with excess moisture in a basement in hot weather, especially without EPS on the walls. The large dehumidifier may work for you, but it is hard to tell since you have given us limited information. It does not need to be installed -- it can just be plugged in, although you can hook it up to ducting if you want to supply more than one room with dehumidified air.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
AndreasMergner is offline  
post #480 of 1242 Old 11-24-2010, 06:56 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve_Vai_rules's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The land of Ice and Snow
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Matt, I consider it as permanent as anything else. In fact, I think my idea to use play foam tiles is kinda inspired. I haven't seen any build threads using them. They actually seal up pretty well at the seams, so there should be very little to no air movement. It is like using EPS, but without needing to put OSB/ply on top and then another layer of actual flooring. It is the only flooring outside of bare concrete, vinyl or tile that won't be ruined in a flood or attacked by mold. I admit that not everyone will be into the look, but I think it will look quite good. We will see what people think about the looks when I post pics of it installed in the hopefully near future.

Oh, and I agree that JUST flooring is not the answer to all (or even most) basement moisture problems. I installed a new, flushable french drain around the inside perimeter of the basement with the help of a concrete saw and jackhammer. I also have EPS on the walls and a monster dehumidifier.

I look forward to seeing how it all turns out it is a new unique and inspired idea and I think will work quite well!

if you are leaving the dehumidifier running then i will be surprised if you run into problems.

and by permanent i mean that you can't really lay any flooring on top of it (or at least i dont think that is the best idea) like hardwood, tile or carpet. it works well for you for this project and you will be likely checking every so often to see the state of the slab underneath. But if you decide to sell anytime soon then the people who buy would likely want something that is a bit more permanent and likely more high end. Just something to think about. I don't think you need to change where you are going with it, it's a great idea, but i do believe it is narrow in who will appreciate it and desire it and likely is going to be something you should change should you decide to sell... But nothing to worry about until or if you want to sell so for now; "outta sight outta mind". Sorry for making this more complicated then it really needed to be.. hahaha

Looking forward to seeing more new progress


Matt

"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live." - George Carlin
Steve_Vai_rules is offline  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off