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post #1 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Dear Friends:

Over the next 14 days we will be transforming a 22x19 room into custom home theater. This project is unique because we will implement several concepts that have been discussed in depth on this AV forums. In our version of Myth-busters we will try to see which of the concepts work out and which do not. We will post progress pictures daily.

In addition we will try to listen and incorporate as many of your suggestions as budget and time will allow. You can comment on our facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/...=22&ajaxpipe=1

Below is Image of the Rack (design phase) and Equipment List.

Equipment List:Screen: Grand View Custom 16:9 Curved 134 (124 Wide and 73 Tall)
Projector: JVC DLA-HD950
Speakers:
Front: Main Klipsch RF-83, Height Klipsch RB-81
Center: 2 x Klipsch RC-64
Surround: Jamo THX D7 Surround, Back Jamo THX LCR
A/V Receiver and Amplifiers
Processor: Onkyo TX-NR3007B
Height: Onkyo TX-NR3007B
Surround: Onkyo TX-NR3007B
Main: Crown XLS602
Center: Crown XLS402
Sources:
DIRECTV: HR24 HD DVR
BluRay: LG BD590
Console: Sony PS3
HTPC: Custom Built based on ShuttlePC with 8 Terabytes of Storage.
Control:
Philips Pronto TSU-9600
Philips RFS-9600 (RS-232, Relay, IP, and HAI Integration)
Phillips RFS-9400 (IP to IR control)
HAI Home Theater Control Module
HAI Dimmers, Relays, and IR Keypad.

Rack and Power:
Panamax PM5100 (amps)
Panamax PM4300 (sources and processor)
Cyber Power UPS (HTPC and CCTV Server)
Other Systems Involved in Installation
Family Room Surround Sound: Onkyo 807, Klipsch CDT-3650 (in ceiling), DefTech Mythos 10 Center, Velodyne In-Wall Sub, BD590, DirecTV HR22.
Whole Home Audio: Nuvo Grand Concerto, Sonos ZP90 player as source
LL

Home Media Professionals Inc
Houston, TX

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post #2 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is the layout for the room. Two risers in the back are round on sketch but most likely will need to adjust in order to push main row a bit backward. Current viewing distance is a bit close for the screen size. Framers should be here in an hour to deal with what is structurally sound. First order of business: Tear down the carpet and plywood and spray in sound insulation between the floors ( this room is on second floor )
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post #3 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 05:59 AM
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1st question, why a curved 16:9 screen if not going with a scope screen and anamorphic lens? A curved 16:9 screen with a projector straight on will produce barrel distortion, will it not? You then have to zoom the image more than necessary to eliminate the distortion.

A scope screen would fit nicely in that room with all those seats.


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post #4 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oman321 View Post

1st question, why a curved 16:9 screen if not going with a scope screen and anamorphic lens? A curved 16:9 screen with a projector straight on will produce barrel distortion, will it not? You then have to zoom the image more than necessary to eliminate the distortion.

A scope screen would fit nicely in that room with all those seats.

This is an interesting comment. I would like to hear more. In testing we did not notice this. This is one of the myth busters of the project I guess. Also theater owner will use mostly for 16:9 content and gaming. But before it is too late lets hear some more comments on the topic.

Thanks for fedback

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post #5 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 06:22 AM
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I have a scope screen and a DIY lens. Before I built my lens I had to check my newly built screen in action of course, so I watched IRON Man with a buddy. We zoomed out as much as we could to try and fill the screen but we were quite a bit shy. It was clearly evident that in the last 8-10 inches of the image every corner was bending down and up horizontally top and bottom.

It may not be as evident on an actual 16:9 screen because the image is not being pulled across the screen as much and depending on the degree of the curve.

I am not certain, if in the diagram those are columns or speakers or speakers in columns? You could potentially go with an Acoustically Transparent 2:35 screen allowiing the speakers to go behind the screen still keeping the same size 16:9 image and then add the necessary width for 2:35. There are some nice options now for either manual masking or some automated solutions which are up and coming for a decent price depending on the budget.


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post #6 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 06:26 AM
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If it is going to be a 16:9 screen I recommend eliminating the curve as well. I hate watching 16:9 movies because of the distortion. It isnt always noticeable but when it is it absolutely frustrating. Unless the owner really wants this make sure he knows nothing of aspect ratios otherwise you may have future issues. My parents cannot tell when the aspect ratio of the movie and what is displayed are different and shows some stretching so for some it does not matter. Plus with it only being so wide you will not really feel the affects of the curve. Either do 2.35(recommended) or eliminate the curve.

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post #7 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 06:29 AM
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Also 14' to the first row is plenty. My screen is 12' wide 2.35 screen and first row is only 10' away and I love it and have never had any complaints from visitors and actually they usually prefer the front row.

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post #8 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 07:07 AM
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What soundproofing techniques do you plan on using? What framing style, DD+GG? hat channel and clips? It would be interesting to see measurements in between layers of drywall if you are planning on DD+GG.


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post #9 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 07:09 AM
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Yeah I see a lot of weird decisions already with this design. Like Dennis always says, "Your room is the most important piece of equipment." Well, the room just looks wrong to me. Bring that first row closer, and make the entrance a door rather than a hallway. Then give the back row at least a little room off the back wall.

My build thread:

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post #10 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 07:36 AM
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Oh this is fantastic.

Trussman and I have been kind of going through it over different sound isolation techniques. This is a great opportunity. Is there a room above too? Can you take SPL measurements in the surrounding areas before you start doing things? Like how much does the blown insulation (not just using batts? Fiberglass or open/closed cell foam? Must of think fiberglass is the best thing going) make a difference in this actual room? Then tell me how much a good wall helps - like if you use steal/hat channel or staggered stud or double stud walls - how much does that stop sound bleeding into other rooms? Going to a second layer or using Green glue? That'd be great to know the results from those tests in an actual space instead of a seamless 4'x8' they do in all the tests.

Can you try different/multiple types of doors? Like are two hollow core doors better than a single solid core (this only really makes sense in a double stud wall)? Does the whole job come down to the doors?
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post #11 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Just talked to insulation guy. He is also in learning mode on this one. Not sure how we can pull this off (different measurements). Because we would have to have it built out in order to start pushing sound thru it.

Doors are 5 feet pocket doors with friction control to prevent rattle. They are solid wood.

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post #12 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is our starting point. As stated above we painted white box to represent a screen and to do some testing in terms of view point. We tried the usual rule 0.84 (divide method) we were at 13.5ft and that didnt work. We still had to move our head to track anything that moves fast. moving just 3ft back did the trick for most of our guys who were here. Now this shifts the issue to speaker positioning and second row of seats.

We have windows to block out too. I will post more later tonight as work progresses.
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post #13 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash11 View Post

Yeah I see a lot of weird decisions already with this design. Like Dennis always says, "Your room is the most important piece of equipment." Well, the room just looks wrong to me. Bring that first row closer, and make the entrance a door rather than a hallway. Then give the back row at least a little room off the back wall.

Thanks for reply the reason we started this thread is to get everyone's feedback on all sorts of issues. And report back on our findings and experience.

The reason we started this project is to test out some theories and learn from them in real environment.

Something will work something will not.

To your comment on hallway. There are two reasons for it. 1. It is already there and useless. 2. We did not want to see the equipment lights but wanted place to showcase the rack (in hallway) Attached is a quick sketch of that hallway which will be covered by curtain (heavy stage type with decent soundproof capability).
LL

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post #14 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 08:59 AM
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So you're not going to rip out the walls/ceiling?
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post #15 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 09:39 AM
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So it would seem that you are creating a current room to a theater which wasnt really stated earlier and it seems like it is open to another room which changes things as well. I would also scrap the pocket doors.

It would also seem to me that you are not going to add anything to the walls for sound isolation which is fine if the customer is not concerned with that.

It would look really nice if you could do a false wall on the front and tie it into the design already in the room. Then you could hide your front speakers as well which really adds to the theater affect.

If there is a door at the end of the hall I would scrap the curtain and use a door that swings both ways. This will block alot of sound as long as it fits pretty close before it gets to the actual room door. This will also do a better job keeping the equipment noise to a minimum

I would also think about placing the screen a bit lower and move the seats closer. I know you said that people would have to track but take a visit to a theater. You have to track at almost all locations so this is normal. The good thing is that you can move the couch to your preferences but you dont want the rear seats so close to the rear wall for imaging purposes.

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post #16 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmCutter View Post

So you're not going to rip out the walls/ceiling?

Theater side of the wals sheetrock is going to be removed on all walls. Ceiling is going to be modified. Cathedral has few issues which we will try to offset with several step ups to leave an opening for recessed Star Ceiling.

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post #17 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeMediaPros View Post

This is an interesting comment. I would like to hear more. In testing we did not notice this. This is one of the myth busters of the project I guess. Also theater owner will use mostly for 16:9 content and gaming. But before it is too late lets hear some more comments on the topic. Thanks for fedback

Exactly what testing did you do?
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Originally Posted by HomeMediaPros View Post

Just talked to insulation guy. He is also in learning mode on this one. Not sure how we can pull this off (different measurements). Because we would have to have it built out in order to start pushing sound thru it.

Doors are 5 feet pocket doors with friction control to prevent rattle. They are solid wood.

So, HMPros is employing non-professionals that need OJT? Sorry, I couldn't resist, because HMP has been doing this since 1999.

"What we do in life echoes in eternity." General Maximus Decimus Meridius
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post #18 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18628239 View Post

Exactly what testing did you do?

So, HMPros is employing non-professionals that need OJT? Sorry, I couldn't resist, because HMP has been doing this since 1999.

... When starting this thread I kind of expected the comment....

There are very few jobs out there in real world where homeowner will go all
out and install or experiment with some of the concepts that everyone on this forum, DIY, or even pros like to do or try to do. In over 10 years there are probably dozen or less projects where HO agreed to go all out (insulation, proofing, moving walls (even in new construction) having adequate space, racks and so forth). So I am not sure you understood the spirit of the projects. The most junior tech on this project has 8 years experience.

This project is in our demo-home we owned the facility. In addition to showroom we have few homes that we use as showrooms for customers and builders. This is one of them.

This also allows guys to experiment with things like moving sky ceiling, shooting stars, lighting effects, DMX and so forth.

We stopped at 16:9 because it seems to be most requested format from customer. We are also installing ScreenInnovation Motorized in the soffit but smaller size so it can drop in front of the 16:9.

Hope this helps cure some sarcasm

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post #19 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 10:52 AM
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I would suggest being careful on how much isolation you do if the customer is not requesting it. If money is no thing than isolate away. Otherwise they will not understand the investment into isolation.

If your ripping the drywall out I would suggest clips and rails if you want to keep the walls but then you also need to deal with the hallway and the room attached to it. I would guess the homeowner is not too worried about isolation if it is open to another room. Where is the entrance to the room?

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post #20 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 10:53 AM
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post #21 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 10:56 AM
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Since this is "sales" demo space I think I would stick with 4 chairs in the front row and open up the side aisles for comfortable traffic flow. That would create two "prime seats" for the his/her buyers. It would also distance the two side seats a little bit further from the side surrounds for more balanced listening.


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post #22 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18628239 View Post

Exactly what testing did you do?

So, HMPros is employing non-professionals that need OJT? Sorry, I couldn't resist, because HMP has been doing this since 1999.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Since this is "sales" demo space I think I would stick with 4 chairs in the front row and open up the side aisles for comfortable traffic flow. That would create two "prime seats" for the his/her buyers. It would also distance the two side seats a little bit further from the side surrounds for more balanced listening.

This is a great suggestion. I will try once again to talk the team into this. Current thought was that 1) people can see what a finished riser with under lip rope looks like 2) when we have wine tasting or bunch of people over for open house they tend to spend a bit of time so we were trying to put as many seats as possible. The door from the back is an issue so we had to split the riser into two sections. ...

Thanks for your post.

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post #23 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeMediaPros View Post

Current thought was that 1) people can see what a finished riser with under lip rope looks like

you will be able to see more of it with wider aisles.


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post #24 of 67 Old 07-23-2010, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to all for feedback (including the sarcastic ones). Here is day one report.
1. There was a CEPro article about retrofit work and surprises it comes with. Well today's progress had very few but interesting ones. They are: Mold spots under existing carpet. Different wall sizes. 2x6 floor instead of plywood (this might be a good thing).
2. Most of the day was spent on AutoCad and using Odeon (http://www.odeon.dk/) sound prediction tools to see how we can correct this room few issues. The worst one being cathedral ceiling and almost square dimension of the room. After running about 10 WHAT IF models we decided to adjust ceiling step down to deal with some of the standing wave and reverb issues.
3. In resulting sky ceiling opening (former cathedral ceiling) we plan to install sound absorbing ribbed panels (you see these in recording studios) to help dealing with bouncing reverb. Now this is theoretical in Odeon software and makes sense. Unfortunately without ceiling and doors this is impossible to measure at this stage but construction must go on.
4. Framer guys took AutoCad and went to work (current state photos attached). Step Down in photo will circle the room creating a step down ceiling with opening to star sky ceiling above.
5. We have added 4 dedicated 20AMP electrical circuits for AMPS, SUBS, PROCESSOR, SOURCES.
6. Tested Integration of Lighting Controls to HAI and to Pronto. The goal here is to be able to select Movie Scene from touch screen on first floor and by the time you get to Theater it is warm and ready with mild lights scene and Sat Box on TV Guide. You would think that HAI and Pronto being RS232 capable you would send RS232 to Pronto 9600 and it will cause events to take place well its Outbound only (BTW so is URC unit). So we have to get creative and use voltage sensing from RS232 receiver load to cause events to happen. I am not sure this is a stable setup so need to work on alternatives. (Ideas are welcome)
Well this is it for today, more framing and tinkering tomorrow. Stay tunned
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post #25 of 67 Old 07-24-2010, 07:07 AM
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If this is a second floor I cant imagine the 2x6 floor helping your situation and might have created the mold issue. I would suggest replacing it or covering it with plywood and green glue unless your going to attempt more isolation than that

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post #26 of 67 Old 07-24-2010, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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If this is a second floor I cant imagine the 2x6 floor helping your situation and might have created the mold issue. I would suggest replacing it or covering it with plywood and green glue unless your going to attempt more isolation than that

It is a second floor and before discovering 2x6 we were planning to remove plywood and do between the floor insulation (spay in type). However removing all of the 2x6 at this point is way more demolition than we want.

We are going to do couple of things: 1. Treat the floor with solution to deal with future mold issues. 2. Float the floor.

Now we have a MythBuster decision to make. For traffic purposes and looks we want to experiment with hardwood floor with glass tile inlays. However we want to offset this with Cork underlayment (http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/har...r/highrise.htm. This is a controversial subject as to sound reflection as compared to carpet.

We are interested in some rant and rave about this approach.

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post #27 of 67 Old 07-24-2010, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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The following suggestions were implemented from this forum so far: (thanks to contributors)

1. Not using the pocket doors. (software did not like the hollow spaces in sound scenarios).
2. Reduced from 5 seats to 4 seats and went 1ft forward on view distance to accommodate larger risers. (will report back on view distance results)
3. We dropped screen down 6 inches to accommodate top center channel mount.

The following suggestions from our team were implemented

1. The Cathedral ceiling will be modified to look to eliminate sharp corners and as added bonus will cover the beam to allow for star ceiling without beam in the middle.
2. Equipment Room (with Onkyo running hotter than average AVR) calculation requires 1.4ton of HVAC to cool it down. As a result we are adding one HVAC return to the room. One supply into hall in front of equipment rack and motorized duct fan for return. This should allow for adequate cooling.
3. Theater Room return will be placed directly behind and slightly above projector to allow for hot air from JVC to blow right into return.

Home Media Professionals Inc
Houston, TX

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post #28 of 67 Old 07-24-2010, 01:54 PM
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I have heard by many experts the spray foam insulation is good for temp but not sound. Maybe you could cut access holes and blow in insulation. I think you should seriously consider some sort of insulation covering the entire area including walls ceiling and floor.

I'm not sure how you are finishing the area you are building out for the ceiling but you may want to be careful you dont create a triple leaf effect. It may not really matter if this is the exterior of the house which it looks like but thought I would throw that out.

I'm also unsure of what you are doing on the screen wall. I might recommend continuing the soffits to match the sides. Without knowing what you are planning in more detail its hard to make recommendations.

Adam

My Theater build

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post #29 of 67 Old 07-24-2010, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Finished framing, adjusted cathedral ceiling, cut in speakers into divider wall, installed rack, completer risers and stage. Electrical starts tomorrow. Lots of photos on facebook (link in first post).

Will update tomorrow on how it goes.

Todays major issue: In using divider wall we came across a secondary roof line that caused us to drop side speakers by 12 inches to fit under. No other major issues today. This one was more of planning oversight.
LL
LL
LL

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post #30 of 67 Old 07-24-2010, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post

I have heard by many experts the spray foam insulation is good for temp but not sound. Maybe you could cut access holes and blow in insulation. I think you should seriously consider some sort of insulation covering the entire area including walls ceiling and floor.

I'm not sure how you are finishing the area you are building out for the ceiling but you may want to be careful you dont create a triple leaf effect. It may not really matter if this is the exterior of the house which it looks like but thought I would throw that out.

I'm also unsure of what you are doing on the screen wall. I might recommend continuing the soffits to match the sides. Without knowing what you are planning in more detail its hard to make recommendations.

Insulation: Instead of pulling up 2x6 floor guy suggested to use cork board underlayment. We have used it few times before and seems to be a decent way to go. We have to insulate this room from attic temperatures and spray in seems to be the best choice. There are no adjacent rooms other than gameroom (from front entrance), one side is outside wall, other is two closets. Downstairs is a main concern as well as keeping screen wall and ceiling cool in TX heat ..

Home Media Professionals Inc
Houston, TX

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