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post #241 of 602 Old 11-23-2010, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Are there 3 aux inputs, L, R and C? I'd definitely use the MC inputs on the back of the amp and switch to MC mode.

Yes, the AUX inputs are L,R and C, I only used the L,R inputs. Ok, will do that in the next set of tests. (use the Mutichannel inputs that is )

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post #242 of 602 Old 11-23-2010, 08:51 PM
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Great build man! Wish I would have caught this earlier. I'm interested to see how you solve the pressure problem. I hope that the concrete isn't too big of a factor as that is similar to what my room is. I'll be watching this one.
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post #243 of 602 Old 11-23-2010, 11:11 PM
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JD,

Use direct mode. Stereo mode and other modes invoke Audyssey (if enabled) and bass processing whereas direct does not. I have the Integra model before yours and I get a big difference in direct mode vs other modes when measuring with REW. Use the multi-channel inputs for the centre channel but you should be able to use any input on the pre-amp (including the ones at the front) for the left and right.

However, given the grief you're getting with the centre channel, use the multi-channel input for all the speakers so you eliminate any variable but use direct mode!.

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post #244 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 03:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieT View Post
JD,

Use direct mode. Stereo mode and other modes invoke Audyssey (if enabled) and bass processing whereas direct does not. I have the Integra model before yours and I get a big difference in direct mode vs other modes when measuring with REW. Use the multi-channel inputs for the centre channel but you should be able to use any input on the pre-amp (including the ones at the front) for the left and right.

However, given the grief you're getting with the centre channel, use the multi-channel input for all the speakers so you eliminate any variable but use direct mode!.

Cheers,
Jamie
I can use dirrect mode for the left and right, but I can't for the others. How do I set up the Integra so I can run a signal through the multi-channel inputs? This is what is baffling me. I also can't seem to get rid of the subwoofer X-over.

I am connecting the preamp with something like this. How would I connect this cable to the Multi-channel inputs?



And there is stereo/music/movie direct mode, which one should I use out of them?

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post #245 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 03:53 AM
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Firstly, there are two modes for Direct - one with bass, and one without. You might have to do two sets of measurements for each speaker to compare the two modes. To change the mode, hit Menu on the remote. Once the main menu is displayed on the screen or front of the pre-amp, use the down arrows on the remote or front panel to select 3. Audio Adjust and hit Enter, then select Direct, press enter and then select Analog and press Enter and toggle the subwoofer value between Yes and No to get the response with bass signals and without.

Now to connect up to measure with REW, go to the main menu of the Integra (hit Menu on the remote). Select 1. Input/Output Assign and press enter. Once the next menu comes up, press down a few times and select 5. Analog Audio Input and press Enter. Now select Multich and set it to the source (eg. DVD) that you're going to use to measure with REW. Exit the menu and then select the source that you just assigned the Multich input to. Once the appropriate source is selected, press the Audio button on the remote until either Multich or Analog is displayed on the front of the pre-amp.

With the cable, connect the white cable end into either the left, centre or right on the multi-channel input on the Integra depending on which speaker you want to test. When measuring, set REW to use the left channel to measure.

Direct mode is the same no matter whether it's Movie, Music or Game. Just make sure one is selected and a small Direct indicator is lit on the front LCD panel of the Integra.

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post #246 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank for the detailed response it is ver much appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieT View Post
Firstly, there are two modes for Direct - one with bass, and one without. You might have to do two sets of measurements for each speaker to compare the two modes. To change the mode, hit Menu on the remote. Once the main menu is displayed on the screen or front of the pre-amp, use the down arrows on the remote or front panel to select 3. Audio Adjust and hit Enter, then select Direct, press enter and then select Analog and press Enter and toggle the subwoofer value between Yes and No to get the response with bass signals and without.
I did this, but when I select Direct and press enter, no choice for analog comes up, it goes straight to subwoofer n/off option or DAC direct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieT View Post
Now to connect up to measure with REW, go to the main menu of the Integra (hit Menu on the remote). Select 1. Input/Output Assign and press enter. Once the next menu comes up, press down a few times and select 5. Analog Audio Input and press Enter. Now select Multich and set it to the source (eg. DVD) that you're going to use to measure with REW. Exit the menu and then select the source that you just assigned the Multich input to. Once the appropriate source is selected, press the Audio button on the remote until either Multich or Analog is displayed on the front of the pre-amp.

With the cable, connect the white cable end into either the left, centre or right on the multi-channel input on the Integra depending on which speaker you want to test. When measuring, set REW to use the left channel to measure.

Direct mode is the same no matter whether it's Movie, Music or Game. Just make sure one is selected and a small Direct indicator is lit on the front LCD panel of the Integra.

Cheers,
Jamie
I did this as you said , but I still get no signal from the center channel. On the LCD screen it has the little "dirrect" on it. But it only shows the Left and Right and Sub as connected in direct mode. Any other modes and it shows the center connected.

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post #247 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 05:11 AM
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Your LCR and sub plots clearly indicate that Bass Management and the internal Xovers in your pre-pro were not active during the time of the measurement.

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post #248 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Your LCR and sub plots clearly indicate that Bass Management and the internal Xovers in your pre-pro were not active during the time of the measurement.

Is that the kind of measurements you are looking for? No Bass Management and the internal Xovers? The left and right measurements don't seem to be right. So I re-did them in direct mode. But I am still trying to work out how to get the center measured in direct mode. I should have these measurements for you shortly.

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post #249 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 05:57 AM
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Can you hook up the center channel speaker to the left or right channel output on your amp/processor?

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post #250 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Can you hook up the center channel speaker to the left or right channel output on your amp/processor?

I can do that quite easily. Do I understand that if I could do that, that the same signal is being produced for LCR's ? If so, this is an easy fix to my problem.

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post #251 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 06:07 AM
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I'm not sure what Dennis is trying to test and I haven't followed all of your REW plots. If you are trying to compare the output of the LC&R speakers, playing the same tones off the same channel but to different speakers would do the trick, IMHO.

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post #252 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so I took your advise Andreas.

I connected the center to the right channel input to get a signal in direct mode. If that is not going to give correct results , feel free to chime in. But it is the most consistent of all my measurements yet.

Center in direct mode 1/12th smoothing at 1m.



Left in direct mode 1/12th smoothing at 1m.



Right in direct mode 1/12th smoothing at 1m.



Sub in direct mode 1/12th smoothing.


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post #253 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Thank for the detailed response it is ver much appreciated.

I did this, but when I select Direct and press enter, no choice for analog comes up, it goes straight to subwoofer n/off option or DAC direct.




I did this as you said , but I still get no signal from the center channel. On the LCD screen it has the little "dirrect" on it. But it only shows the Left and Right and Sub as connected in direct mode. Any other modes and it shows the center connected.

Just choose Subwoofer on/off for the two modes. I don't have your pre-amp so I was following the instructions in the manual for your pre-amp model (which is very similar to mine).

I don't know why you're not getting the multi-channel direct mode. Your pre-amp is the next model up from mine and it may work differently but normally pressing the 'Audio' or 'Audio Selector' button on the front of the pre-amp should select the multi-channel input once it has been assigned to the specific source you are using.

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post #254 of 602 Old 11-24-2010, 11:50 AM
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I think you've pretty much got it. Now measure from your main listening position at your approximate seated ear height to compare with these plots.

Try not to measure from the exact centre of your room (whether that be length, width or height) unless you want to see a ton of dips and peaks in the bass region.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Ok, so I took your advise Andreas.

I connected the center to the right channel input to get a signal in direct mode. If that is not going to give correct results , feel free to chime in. But it is the most consistent of all my measurements yet.

Center in direct mode 1/12th smoothing at 1m.



Left in direct mode 1/12th smoothing at 1m.



Right in direct mode 1/12th smoothing at 1m.



Sub in direct mode 1/12th smoothing.



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post #255 of 602 Old 11-25-2010, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Jamie T, I think I have now, one more set of test.


These are measurements made when connected directly to the catalysts and submersive, no AVR to influence the signal. Finaly I think I have it right.

Taken at 1/2". Center



Taken a 1m. Center 1/12 smoothing



Taken at 1m. Right 1/12 smoothing



Taken at 1m. Left 1/12 smoothing



Taken at 1m. Sub 1/12 smoothing


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post #256 of 602 Old 11-25-2010, 04:51 AM
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I reached out to some colleagues to come up with some nearfield plots of other speakers for you to compare.

 

30th octave.pdf 27.8212890625k . file

 

document1.pdf 145.224609375k . file
LL

 

Theater NF.pdf 145.3642578125k . file

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post #257 of 602 Old 11-25-2010, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

I reached out to some colleagues to come up with some nearfield plots of other speakers for you to compare.

Thanks for the files Dennis, they are very helpful. I sent you and email BTW.

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post #258 of 602 Old 11-26-2010, 05:31 AM
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General Comments:
A pro would use something along the lines of a Quantum Data 780 or Sencore DAG to generate the audio test signals. These devices will output DD or DTS encoded test signals and allow the calibrator to specifically address a given channel. Should a QSC DSP be part of the output chain, each channel's output can be turned off making this process a bit easier.

Pre-Pro in the loop.
It is helpful to keep the pre-pro in the calibration loop. The decoding/processing delays can be noted (has an impact on ITDG and ETG results). As well, it allows the bass management function to be viewed. For example, Bass Management ON, Xover to (80Hz), and then overlay the front channel(s) response over the sub(s) response to view the actual crossover point and the crossover slopes. (Usually not a problem with a THX certified pre-pro. I have seen pre-pros where the slopes are dead wrong and an 80Hz setting is producing a 100Hz xover point.) The only way you can properly match the subwoofer levels with the mains is to do it this way or by a full range RTA live.

Near Field Measurements
Taking near field measurements of the speakers is the first step, always. The near field shows what the speakers are doing and if anything is broken ... like an Xover or a blown tweeter. In the general scheme of things, attempting to fix poor speaker response with an external EQ is not always successful and some response error correction shouldn't even be attempted. In the end, knowing the speaker's response allows you, during room calibration, to separate out what the speakers are doing vs room effects.

Dave, if I understand your circumstances correctly:

1. Your previous speakers in your previous (non dedicated) room did not cause you this hearing distress.

2. Your current speakers in your previous room did cause this distress.

3. Your current speakers in your current room also cause this distress.

From this, it is pretty safe to say the speakers are the culprit. With that in mind, the question is what are the speakers doing that might create this problem for you. You may have developed a sensitivity to distortion in narrow areas of the frequency spectrum. Looking at the near field plots, there are differences between the L, C and R speakers ... the signficance of these differences is difficult to tell without very precise level matching and then an over lay of the three plots. However, they all exhibit a very deep, narrow notch at just below 800Hz, your left is showing something going on at 2kHz (also apparent in the C and R but not as deep), and nasty peak at about 5.5kHz. The notch at 800Hz cannot be addressed by PEQ whilst the stuff at 5.5kHz can be fixed.

I'm rather suspicious of the "stuff" going on at 5.5kHz as being something you could be reacting to ... the 800Hz notch could also be contributing to the issue.

Next steps. I'd suggest you have friends over and see if they have the same issue(s) you have...if not, it could easily be a specific sensitivity in your hearing which has been exacerbated by these particular speakers ... an audiologist may be able to sort this out. As well, the problem you're experiencing could be resolved using different speakers. That's a tough approach because that means listening to other speakers in a geography where this is less than easy to do. I would vote for a visit to an audiologist just to verify your hearing and then listening tests.

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post #259 of 602 Old 11-26-2010, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I wish I could have someone closer to do measurements like this for me, but unfortunately I don't. All that stuff you just said went straight over my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

General Comments:

Dave, if I understand your circumstances correctly:

1. Your previous speakers in your previous (non dedicated) room did not cause you this hearing distress.

2. Your current speakers in your previous room did cause this distress.

3. Your current speakers in your current room also cause this distress.

From this, it is pretty safe to say the speakers are the culprit. With that in mind, the question is what are the speakers doing that might create this problem for you. You may have developed a sensitivity to distortion in narrow areas of the frequency spectrum. Looking at the near field plots, there are differences between the L, C and R speakers ... the signficance of these differences is difficult to tell without very precise level matching and then an over lay of the three plots. However, they all exhibit a very deep, narrow notch at just below 800Hz, your left is showing something going on at 2kHz (also apparent in the C and R but not as deep), and nasty peak at about 5.5kHz. The notch at 800Hz cannot be addressed by PEQ whilst the stuff at 5.5kHz can be fixed.

I'm rather suspicious of the "stuff" going on at 5.5kHz as being something you could be reacting to ... the 800Hz notch could also be contributing to the issue.

Next steps. I'd suggest you have friends over and see if they have the same issue(s) you have...if not, it could easily be a specific sensitivity in your hearing which has been exacerbated by these particular speakers ... an audiologist may be able to sort this out. As well, the problem you're experiencing could be resolved using different speakers. That's a tough approach because that means listening to other speakers in a geography where this is less than easy to do. I would vote for a visit to an audiologist just to verify your hearing and then listening tests.

Yes you have the situation correct. My last speakers I listened to for nearly 10 years. They are not very high quality, I think the 5.1 system only cost about $3K if memory serves. But I never had fullness of the ears or any other problems over the years. I never have watched movies very loud and the same goes for the new speakers. I was initially concerned that the power over here may be causing something, but again that is only a guess.

As I said in my email, I have been to an Audiologist quite a few times and I don't have anything wrong, no notches in my hearing and it is average to above average for my age. I am still relatively young at 34 years old and never listened to loud music or headphones.

I though a graph overlaying the speakers may help a little , so here it is.
Center is Red, Right is purple and aqua is the left channel. All taken directly connected to the each catalysts.


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post #260 of 602 Old 11-26-2010, 07:41 PM
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Can I ask what you do in Japan? Curious if you are an exPat living there or if you emigrated there? I've always thought it very hard for an 'outsider' to get situated in Japan, as I have understood that the culture is fairly 'xenophobic'.

My own dealings with Japan thru business have reinforced that to some extent, although the younger generation in Japan seems less so.

If you don't feel comfortable saying, thats fine, but I am curious how you got situated over there. (Big assumption being that you weren't born/raised there and moved there recently).
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post #261 of 602 Old 11-26-2010, 08:38 PM
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"wish I could have someone closer to do measurements like this for me, but unfortunately I don't. All that stuff you just said went straight over my head."

I agree Dave it can make it near impossible without the right gear & understanding..
There must be someone in Japan with the Knowledge and Gear to fine tune..

Perhaps Dennis may know someone & could put you in touch with them over there, Or better still the man him self ..

If it were me & at all posible I would look at the possibility of working out something with Dennis for further assistance in fine tuning your Theatre
& perhaps renting all the needed components so you can take reliable measurements for Dennis to Analize..

Cheers..
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post #262 of 602 Old 11-27-2010, 03:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FusionRx View Post
Can I ask what you do in Japan? Curious if you are an exPat living there or if you emigrated there? I've always thought it very hard for an 'outsider' to get situated in Japan, as I have understood that the culture is fairly 'xenophobic'.

My own dealings with Japan thru business have reinforced that to some extent, although the younger generation in Japan seems less so.

If you don't feel comfortable saying, thats fine, but I am curious how you got situated over there. (Big assumption being that you weren't born/raised there and moved there recently).
Sure , no problems. I moved here when I was about 20 or so, I wouldn't call myself an expat as I have bought land, built a house and settled down here(I have permanent residency). As for work, lets just say I am in the medical business here. And yes, it can be very hard for an "outsider" to really do anything but teach English, unless you are with the armed forces.

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post #263 of 602 Old 11-27-2010, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post
"wish I could have someone closer to do measurements like this for me, but unfortunately I don't. All that stuff you just said went straight over my head."

I agree Dave it can make it near impossible without the right gear & understanding..
There must be someone in Japan with the Knowledge and Gear to fine tune..

Perhaps Dennis may know someone & could put you in touch with them over there, Or better still the man him self ..

If it were me & at all posible I would look at the possibility of working out something with Dennis for further assistance in fine tuning your Theatre
& perhaps renting all the needed components so you can take reliable measurements for Dennis to Analize..

Cheers..
I could get get someone to do all the test for here, but there is the problem of sorting those issues out and by the way they do home theaters here, no thanks. That is the main reason why I went with Dennis, b/c he knows what he is doing and has many, many years of experience. (Dennis that was not a crack about your age, you don't look a day older than 35! )

If it does turn out to be a case of me being sensitive to certain characteristics in speakers and setup needs a lot of expert input, then I will certainly talk to Dennis about our options and if he like sushi or not.

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post #264 of 602 Old 11-27-2010, 04:19 AM
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Dave, are you in the military? I was a corpsman in the Navy Reserve and spent 2.5 weeks in Yokosuka. That was a fun experience.

Not sure if your graphs are good or not. I don't know why they are different volumes. I think you can post them on the REW forum for feedback also....though Dennis should be able to help you out.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
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post #265 of 602 Old 11-27-2010, 04:47 AM
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Andreas ... clearly the speakers are not level matched; however, that is not our current, more pressing issue.

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post #266 of 602 Old 11-27-2010, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post
Dave, are you in the military? I was a corpsman in the Navy Reserve and spent 2.5 weeks in Yokosuka. That was a fun experience.

Not sure if your graphs are good or not. I don't know why they are different volumes. I think you can post them on the REW forum for feedback also....though Dennis should be able to help you out.
No, I was never in the military.

I don't understand that either, as each speaker was checked and calibrated to run at 75db's.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #267 of 602 Old 12-01-2010, 04:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Just getting away from the speakers for a while, I finally ordered my chairs. I went with the Berkline Apollo 45002 in Chocolate brown with full leather trim, buttkickers, lighted cup holders , power recline and power headrests.

I had to order from the States as there are no home theater seats here in Japan and let me say I am really keeping those shipping companies pockets lined.


My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #268 of 602 Old 12-01-2010, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Just getting away from the speakers for a while, I finally ordered my chairs. I went with the Berkline Apollo 45002 in Chocolate brown with full leather trim, buttkickers, lighted cup holders , power recline and power headrests.

I had to order from the States as there are no home theater seats here in Japan and let me say I am really keeping those shipping companies pockets lined.


Nice Dave. They look comfortable.
Did the store you ordered them from organize shipping or did you have to do it yourself.
I'm looking at options to get some to Australia.
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post #269 of 602 Old 12-01-2010, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice Dave. They look comfortable.
Did the store you ordered them from organize shipping or did you have to do it yourself.
I'm looking at options to get some to Australia.

Hey Crabra,
I went through Roman at www.rtheaters.com and he was absolutely great, he organised everything. I received responses from from emails very quickly and he answered any of my concerns. All I have to do is pick them up at the depo and I am done. Not only that , for the size of the stuff being shipped, the shipping was not too bad.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #270 of 602 Old 12-01-2010, 04:45 PM
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Love the chairs are they as comfortable as they look.The 45012 look the same.
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