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Old 04-11-2011, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

I don't know if you are using the automatic door drop and adjustable stops to seal the door, but if you are, then you'll have to modify the frame of a door anyway. Then if you are using DD, your framing will be thicker than a normal pre hung door allows.

I'm not sure what an automatic door drop is or adjustable stops are. Is this something I need to be specific about when ordering a custom door from home depot?

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Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

I know the Econowaves on the DIY section are well regarded, but depends on your budget. What is your "bank"?

Well, I would love to do SLA's for my LCR speakers (TLAH's are just too tall) but I don't know what to do about the center if I use those. Build 2 and split the signal to them? Cut out the middle of my center stud and box around it? (which is not my first choice btw). Whatcha think?

My bank would have to be under $200 per speaker (less for surrounds). Well, let me rephrase that, WELL under $200 per speaker with sound quality that surpasses most commercial speakers in it's size class, otherwise I will just go with some Axiom in-wall's which turn out to be around $250 per speaker for the M22 v3's. They are very nice looking, get good reviews and I don't have to build them, lol.

Any thoughts?
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Old 04-12-2011, 06:37 AM
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Automatic drops and adjustable stops are to seal the door for sound proofing if you are going that route.

TLAH's can be made in different lengths, although the length determines the lower freq response. SLAs don't do reference, I believe. The center SLA would be vertical just like the L&R. You don't want it horizontal or else you will get comb filtering and it will sound different to each ear (unless you do a curved SLA). Is your center stud exactly in the center of your screen?

The nice thing about DIY is that since your LCRs are behind the screen you can concentrate on how they sound rather than how they look. Both TLAHs and econowaves should far surpass what you can buy new. You might want to look around in the DIY section for ideas or start a thread. LCRs are pretty easy to build as they are just a simple box. As long as you have the crossovers worked out by someone for the design, you should be golden.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
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Old 04-12-2011, 06:43 AM
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How does the TLAH stack up to the Danley DTS-10 Spud kit? This is the sub that everyone on teh DIY Sub forum is raving about. I had the TLAH in mind for my room, but the Danley seems to be a really strong contender. Just curious what your thoughts are.

Follow my build here: Harvest Ridge Theater
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:01 AM
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The TLAHs are for fronts (LCRs) and are line arrays. You can see them in my build thread.

The THT is what you are probably talking about for a sub. The THT is inexpensive ($300-400 with an amp), has more output than the DTS-10 (above 20hz), and requires only a 200 watt amp. It is also truly DIY with plans. The DTS-10 requires a much more powerful amp and is a $1000-ish kit from Danley. The DTS-10 does go much lower to 10hz, which is significantly lower.

It depends on what you want. The THT is the best bang for the buck. It has a TON of output for basically what amounts to the minimum you can spend for one driver and an amp....but only to 15-20hz. The DTS-10 goes significantly deeper, but costs several times more, and you might want more than one in a larger room (or if you are a bass head) but is still a very good value. You can't lose either way, really.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:44 AM
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Thanks for that. The TNT is what I was thinking, not the TLAH. Too many acronyms.

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Old 04-12-2011, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carboranadum View Post

Thanks for that. The TNT is what I was thinking, not the TLAH. Too many acronyms.

THT. TNT has WAY WAY too much output for home use. Ha ha ha

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Automatic drops and adjustable stops are to seal the door for sound proofing if you are going that route.

TLAH's can be made in different lengths, although the length determines the lower freq response. SLAs don't do reference, I believe. The center SLA would be vertical just like the L&R. You don't want it horizontal or else you will get comb filtering and it will sound different to each ear (unless you do a curved SLA). Is your center stud exactly in the center of your screen?

The nice thing about DIY is that since your LCRs are behind the screen you can concentrate on how they sound rather than how they look. Both TLAHs and econowaves should far surpass what you can buy new. You might want to look around in the DIY section for ideas or start a thread. LCRs are pretty easy to build as they are just a simple box. As long as you have the crossovers worked out by someone for the design, you should be golden.

I did a little research on Automatic door seals and I kind of get the idea. I went to Home Depot today and things were looking ok until he told me that I can't get an interior door on an exterior frame. Would it be hard to make my own frame?

Now with the line array speakers, since there are many tweeters in the cab, what about the ear level rule, how high can I place the speaker before I lose that advantage of being at ear level? Below are the drawing plans for my screen wall. The center stud is right in the center, we built the frame to accommodate the IB setup. Also, can I flush mount a line array or econowave design into the wall? I don't have or want to give up the room for a false wall so I want to put the mains right into the wall behind the screen. If I do this, does this mean I don't have to treat the back wall if the speakers will be flush with it?

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Old 04-29-2011, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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So, not much else done to the framing although all we have left is to frame for the door which looks like we'll get done sunday!

In the mean time I decided on a set of Econowave Standard speakers for my LCR speakers. Here are a couple of pics of my progress so far...








And since I couldn't decide on what to do for DIY surrounds, I was browsing Parts-Express for a couple in-walls for my living room and came across some HiFi Works THX speakers, I grabbed 6 of them. They are bipole and cheap, should work great for my small room. Although, after receiving them, I realized that I should have picked up a pair of monopoles for the rear surrounds (7.1 setup) and not the bipole's. So, I still needed to order xo parts for my Econowaves so I picked up a pair of the HiFi Works THX monopole speakers. I'll try them both out and see what sounds best





Stay tuned
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, all of the framing for the room is done for now. The door will be the last to go in, probably after drywall. Speaking of drywall, I have a couple questions I would really appreciate your input on.

Since two of my walls are against concrete, do they or should they be DD/GG/CC or can I just do one layer of drywall? The screen wall, double dw and channels or just drywall? The ceiling for sure will get the DD/GG/CC because that leads right to the kitchen, but, if I don't do the same on all of the walls, will the sound travel through the framing and into the upstairs enough to make me wish I did DD/GG/CC on ALL walls? I'm just trying to stop the sound from going upstairs as much as possible while being reasonable. I don't need it to be 100% quiet either, I just want to make sure I'm spending my time and money in the right places here.

My second question is kind of moot but I just want your opinions on it anyway. I know my room is small and the side seating will be close to the walls (roughly 2 ft from the wall), if listeners are at either side, will the surrounds close to them just end up being obnoxious and loud while not being able to hear the other side surrounds? I would love to have all seats be just as immersive as the rest, is that even possible?

Another thought, will my room sound small because it IS small or will the correct amount of acoustical treatment fix that?

Hope to hear some good input soon, I need to get my inspector over here soon to sign off on the framing, then I can start wiring
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Old 05-15-2011, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, here is the progress on my Econowave build so far. The cabs are just about complete, just need to add sealer inside and build my crossovers, then sand and finish





If anyone would like to take a stab at my previous post, that would make my day as I'm ready to continue very soon! Building inspector will get a call tomorrow
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Old 05-15-2011, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Since two of my walls are against concrete, do they or should they be DD/GG/CC or can I just do one layer of drywall? The screen wall, double dw and channels or just drywall? The ceiling for sure will get the DD/GG/CC because that leads right to the kitchen, but, if I don't do the same on all of the walls, will the sound travel through the framing and into the upstairs enough to make me wish I did DD/GG/CC on ALL walls? I'm just trying to stop the sound from going upstairs as much as possible while being reasonable. I don't need it to be 100% quiet either, I just want to make sure I'm spending my time and money in the right places here.
Hope to hear some good input soon, I need to get my inspector over here soon to sign off on the framing, then I can start wiring

\\
I was in your situation when I started my build, weighing what I should do for isolation. Scrimp and save, or do it right and know that it will be all I could do. Anything less than recommended techniques is going to be a crap shoot on end results. So, following is what I understand as gold standard for you, anything less and YMM definitely V:

1) For your 2 walls against concrete, use standard stick frame construction. No need for clips and channel as they are considered DECOUPLED due to concrete walls next to them. DISCONNECT them from upper framing via use of DC-04 clips. DD/GG on interior.
2) For your 2 interior walls, most cost effective method is using staggered stud construction, or building second interior wall, which DECOUPLES from opposite side. Same deal as #1 applies with use of DC-04's for DISCONNECTING from upper joists. DD/GG on interior. This approach is much less $ than doing a single standard wall construction and then doing clips/channel.
3) Ceiling normally is clips/channel/DD/GG if attaching to existing joists. If you are doing floating joists, then just DD/GG will do.

Sealing wall outlets and other penetrations are important as well and have recommended approaches.

I went the extra mile and am very happy with the results. Since every room is different in terms of location, flanking paths etc. it would be nearly impossible for someone to tell you you'll get X results based on your particular situation, testing isn't there. I came to that conclusion pretty quickly, and decided on the max since I needed it for my build.

Hope that helps.
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Old 05-15-2011, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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1) For your 2 walls against concrete, use standard stick frame construction. No need for clips and channel as they are considered DECOUPLED due to concrete walls next to them. DISCONNECT them from upper framing via use of DC-04 clips. DD/GG on interior.
2) For your 2 interior walls, most cost effective method is using staggered stud construction, or building second interior wall, which DECOUPLES from opposite side. Same deal as #1 applies with use of DC-04's for DISCONNECTING from upper joists. DD/GG on interior. This approach is much less $ than doing a single standard wall construction and then doing clips/channel.
3) Ceiling normally is clips/channel/DD/GG if attaching to existing joists. If you are doing floating joists, then just DD/GG will do.

Hope that helps.

Thanks so much for you input, just a couple questions and concerns I guess..

For the two walls against concrete, I should just chop off the top of the stud and use DC-04 clips in place? Also, because they are against concrete, why the DD/GG?

Now, for my other two walls. One of them is the screen wall. I don't know if it would be a good idea to decouple it from the ceiling joists because I need the rigidity for the IB subwoofers. Maybe the DC-04's are stronger than I'm picturing and I can just use multiple DC-04's per stud? If you take a glance at the previous page (whatever page shows my completed screen wall), you can get a better idea of what I'm working with.

The 2nd interior wall will be on the long side of the room. I don't think I need to do staggered studs because I'm not so woried about the sound on the other side of that wall, just up through the ceiling into the upstairs. Can I just to DC-04's with DD/GG and call it a day?
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Old 05-16-2011, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Thanks so much for you input, just a couple questions and concerns I guess..

For the two walls against concrete, I should just chop off the top of the stud and use DC-04 clips in place? Also, because they are against concrete, why the DD/GG?

Now, for my other two walls. One of them is the screen wall. I don't know if it would be a good idea to decouple it from the ceiling joists because I need the rigidity for the IB subwoofers. Maybe the DC-04's are stronger than I'm picturing and I can just use multiple DC-04's per stud? If you take a glance at the previous page (whatever page shows my completed screen wall), you can get a better idea of what I'm working with.

The 2nd interior wall will be on the long side of the room. I don't think I need to do staggered studs because I'm not so woried about the sound on the other side of that wall, just up through the ceiling into the upstairs. Can I just to DC-04's with DD/GG and call it a day?

RE the two walls against concrete, you can rework them with shorter studs but keep same top plate (now disconnected from joists except for DC04's). You question almost sounds like you are asking about cutting them and then putting a DC04 on each stud? That would get expensive and I've not seen that done before. People use the top plate again on the shorter studs, and then DC04's every 4'. If that's too much work, you can alternatively use clips and channel on the existing wall(s) and leave them as is. I recommended DD there as that's what Ted recommends (to me at least)

Don't know what to tell you on the screen wall for sure. I suspect you could still use DC04 on that wall and go closer than 4' spacing (maybe every 2'?). I'd give Ted a call to discuss further.

I guess your idea on the 2nd interior wall is one of those areas where it becomes cloudy on results if you don't do staggered studs. While you may achieve disconnection improvement, not getting it properly decoupled may allow enough sound through opposite side that it will flank up into the second floor anyway. Tough to say how much.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

I plan on doing 4 18's in a line array below my screen with the back of them open to the rest of the basement... should work out well

I decided to build my wall from doubled up 2x6's, 24" on center with double 5/8" subfloor plywood on top. I think that should give me plenty of bracing and I can always box around each sub, bracing them even more.

I just noticed this...although I haven't looked into IB, from what I've seen in other builds people doing an IB set-up typically have a totally sound isolated "chamber" built if sound isolation is a goal. So, if your IB chamber is "the rest of the basement", what's the point in worrying about soundproofing your walls?

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I don't get it
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Old 05-16-2011, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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It's not a stupid question, but now that you ask, it made me think for a minute. Overall, I guess I'm just trying to sound proof the upstairs from everything but LFE content. If I'm going that route, is all of the above sound isolation necessary or can I get away with less because I'm not trying to isolate LFE?
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:33 PM
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I don't believe that I can give you a qualified answer, as I've never ran across this scenario before.

I really think Ted White is the one you need to consult
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Old 05-17-2011, 07:42 PM
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IBs can't really be sound isolated unless you isolate the back chamber also. The sound will go through the cones of the IB drivers.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
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Old 05-17-2011, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Andreas, is it easier or harder to isolate sub 80hz content?
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Old 05-17-2011, 08:43 PM
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Is is more difficult to isolate low frequencies.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
Build log: DIY rotary sub for contemporary HT in 100 year old house?
Andreas' Slow Rotary Sub build
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Old 05-17-2011, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thats what I thought. Now, since I'm not too worried about isolating the LFE, do I have to go so extreme with treatments (DC-04's and DD/GG/CC) to isolate the rest of the spectrum?
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Old 05-18-2011, 01:09 PM
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You might want to ask Ted, but I would think you would still want decoupling, absorption and sealing up the room. The DD and GG helps mostly with the low freqs. Luckily, the DD and GG are the most expensive and labor intensive. Double check with Ted - give him a call.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:30 PM
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I do not think it will be a waste of time to sound isolate the room and leave the back chamber not isolated. While I went through great pains to isolate my back chamber i do recognize that it still will not isolate all the bass.

You will still benefit by isolating sounds from coming into the room which I think is a bigger benefit than preventing sound from going out. It will lower your noise floor and increase the dynamic range of your system. In other words you will not have to turn your system volume up everytime someone whispers in a movie to make it louder than the sounds entering your room (mechanical, environmental sounds)

Also while low frequency sounds are harder to isolate and travel further, higher frequency sounds are generally more offensive to someone outside the theater than low rumbling sounds.
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Now, for my other two walls. One of them is the screen wall. I don't know if it would be a good idea to decouple it from the ceiling joists because I need the rigidity for the IB subwoofers. Maybe the DC-04's are stronger than I'm picturing and I can just use multiple DC-04's per stud? If you take a glance at the previous page (whatever page shows my completed screen wall), you can get a better idea of what I'm working with.
?
I would definitely try to decouple the IB Baffle wall from the ceiling - especially with the line array - Your wall will be transmitting a lot of vibrations. Have you considered doing an opposed manifold design instead? It would greatly diminish the vibration transmitted to the wall.
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:16 PM
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I agree with what StockMonkey wrote. My HT is still missing its door yet it is noticeably quiet in the room. Still, 4 x 18" holes will let in a lot more noise than a sealed room...but it is still much better than a non treated room.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for your advice. I have thought of doing manifolds instead but for one, I was told to have breathing room behind each sub and if I do a manifold or two, one way or another, all woofers won't have infinite room behind them (they will either point at one another, the floor, ceiling, or a wall). 2nd being that it would be a really cool look to see 4 woofers lined up at the bottom :-)

I think I'll pm Ted and see what his thought are. I really don't want to go too crazy or expensive with this for the small gains I might get. I will be treating the room no doubt and maybe do DC-04's on the 3 other walls along with DD/GG but I don't think I should decouple the screen wall because of the rigidity I will need for the IB design. Yes, a trade off for sure, but I'm ok with that.

I hope you guys understand that I'm not disregaring any of your advice, at all, I'm just trying to stay within reason. If I had a bigger room and more money to spend along with a better reason to make the room so quiet, I would probably do all of the above. Like I said earlier, I'm just trying to make sure I spend my time and money in the right places for the right reasons, that's all :-)
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:39 AM
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There are quite a few IB installations that do not have a lot of breathing room around the drivers - most of the attic installations I have seen do not. I thought about doing a line array in my theater but ended up deciding that the manifold solved a lot of the problems and it was all going to be hidden behind my screenwall anyway. That being said I can certainly understand the appeal of of an array.

Is your screen going to be mounted directly on the baffle wall or are you going to have a false wall with a screen?
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post


I think I'll pm Ted and see what his thought are. I really don't want to go too crazy or expensive with this for the small gains I might get. I will be treating the room no doubt and maybe do DC-04's on the 3 other walls along with DD/GG but I don't think I should decouple the screen wall because of the rigidity I will need for the IB design. Yes, a trade off for sure, but I'm ok with that.

-)

By the way i used the IB3 clips (similar to the DC-04) in my theater and the walls seem to be just as rigid as if I nailed directly to the joists. They did not seem very rigid while I was first putting up the walls, but once everything was tied together it seems very rigid. On my infinite baffle chamber i first had the IB3 clips attaching the baffle wall to the ceiling because it would move quite a bit when pushing on it. After the entire chamber was framed and the osb was installed (it is a full room within a room) I removed the IB3 clips because they were not needed and the With the OSB, and two layers of drywall the wall is not going anywhere. My entire chamber does not have any clips of any kind anywhere and the only contact with the rest of the house is the floor.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:02 AM - Thread Starter
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My screen will be mounted on the baffle wall, no false wall.

Thanks for the recommendations. I just PM'd Ted White, I'll talk with him a bit and see what he recommends.

I will keep this updated
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, while I'm in the middle of figuring out my sound isolation construction, I bought some audio gear and almost finished my screen... what a PITA! I mean, I'm a hands on fella and unfortunately a perfectionist so when things don't come out perfect, I get annoyed, very fast.

Here is my progress so far...

Last week I built my screen frame, that went pretty well except for when I made my 45 deg cuts on each piece, they didn't come out at a perfect 45 deg, so my squareness was a little off... Then I bought material to cover it, bought felt the first time around and realized it was the wrong stuff and that I should have bought velvet instead, so, I went back to Jo-Annes and bought the correct material. Then came the wrapping of the pieces, eh, not soo good. Now, stretching the Seymour AT screen material over the frame? I am NOT having fun with this
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:31 AM
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looking at those sub boxes I would suggest 1-2.5' off the primary wall, so you'll be looking at a false wall at 2.5-3' or may be 4'..

you could insulate the boxes a bit though I'm not sure if that would help your situation, I would say it might be better to dome the wall behind the subs might help deflect some of the reverb noise...
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