What Adhesive for use with Rigid Foam?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 44 Old 11-20-2010, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I am about 90% done with Drylok on the exterior walls in my space. I picked up a bunch of rigid foam today from HD. But I was reading the tube of adhesive and have a question:

The adhesive I am planning to use is PL-300, which is specifically for affixing rigid foam to substrate/concrete.

The tube of PL-300 says it is not recommended for attaching rigid foam to sealed concrete. However, the website doesn't say anything like that. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is there an alternative adhesive?
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/pl_...d-Adhesive.htm

Thanks for any input you have!

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post #2 of 44 Old 11-21-2010, 05:32 AM
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I used the PL300 on my bare cinder block walls with no problems, however I did not Dry Lok before attaching them. I also used PL300 to attach foam board to my concrete basement floor without any problems. You will have to use an adhesive that is specifically made for foam board, other adhesives will "melt" the foam board. Keep in mind, if you frame your walls right next to the foam board, then it will hold the foam board in place.
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post #3 of 44 Old 11-21-2010, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi bzbase - thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I need to keep a small airspace between the foam and the theater wall frame in order to preserve my sound-proofing efforts. Ted White told me that contact between the foam and wall framing will couple the two.

So - still on the hunt for the right product. I'm going through the Owens Corning website, but can't seem to find any info on the right adhesive. Maybe PL-300 will be okay...

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post #4 of 44 Old 11-21-2010, 11:16 AM
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I used Henry 444 FRP Panel Adhesive applied with notched trowell. The on-line advertisements doesn't list rigid foam board but I just went down and read the container and it includes polystyrene foam insulation.

Man, that took longer than I thought it would...

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post #5 of 44 Old 11-21-2010, 07:05 PM
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I am also doing as Ted advises in the theater. The rest of the basement will be framed against the foam board.
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post #6 of 44 Old 11-21-2010, 08:22 PM
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PL300 is what I used - no problems here.

I am also building the theater walls in a similar fashion. I am basically following the instructions provided at this link: http://www.homeconstructionimproveme...nt-insulation/
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post #7 of 44 Old 11-21-2010, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the link sirmebes - that document is interesting and has good info. I've been looking at something similar to that, here: http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...lation-systems.

I'm a little nervous about it because I have two non-porous surfaces that I'm trying to bond, but I bought some PL-300 today and am going to go for it tomorrow. I think I'll wait a few days before spraying Great Stuff around the perimeter in order to give the adhesive as much time to set/dry as possible.

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post #8 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 04:34 AM
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I used great stuff to adhere 2" extruded polystyrene to my unsealed walls. I was able to attach 4 8' boards with each can. If you have an issue with PL 300 on your sealed walls you could always try great stuff. I chose great stuff because it was easier and faster to work with.
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post #9 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks barlav - I bought some Great Stuff yesterday to use with the 2" XPS in the rim joists but I didn't know if it would be sticky enough to bond the full sheets of XPS to the substrate - based on your experience, it looks like it will work fine...thanks!

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post #10 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 09:02 AM
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I've been following this thread and am a little confused over all the concern about needing such a "comprehensive attachment" of the XPS to the wall. Since your panels will be setting vertically it seems there will be very little in terms of forces to make it fall away from the block wall (which you have already sealed with Drylock), so I find it hard to believe that the standard PL300 you originally intended on using won't provide enough adhesion to keep the sheet vertical and against the wall (which is the goal unless something else is at play).

Also, if you're framing your walls about 1' or so away from the XPS and using standard R-13 batts between those studs, the batts will most likely expand enough to contact the XPS which will also help hold it up.

Maybe there's some higher goal in mind here that I'm missing regarding the XPS to wall contact? Not trying to be controversial here, just trying to understand.
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post #11 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Haha- fotto, you're entirely correct. The only higher goal I have here is satisfying my complete anal-ness and extreme paranoia of basement moisture!

My initial concern over the PL-300 was that I read somewhere on the interwebs (which I can no longer find) that using it between two non-porous surfaces meant that it would never dry. I remember reading it, and it was more of the 'comment on a blog' type than an authoritative source. The PL-300 tube also says "not recommended for use with sealed concrete", but the website doesn't say anything about that, so I have decided not to worry about it. http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/pl_...d-Adhesive.htm. I think I'll just go with a little PL-300 plus some Great Stuff.

And you're also right that there won't be much in the way of force pulling the boards away from the wall - I dry fit one wall last night and it basically stood up on its own - so I could probably get away with just Scotch Tape if I wanted to . I'm going to try to keep the theater framing and insulation from contacting the rigid foam in order to prevent any coupling (again, probably overly anal), but I'm sure PL-300 and Great Stuff will be more than adequate to keep the foam against the wall.

I'm going to use Tyvek tape to seal the joints between the foam boards. Next question (LOL): do I also need a little sealant/caulk for the tongue and groove joint between the boards, or is the tape enough?

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post #12 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 10:53 AM
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Well, you'll fit in perfectly fine here in the "anal zone" with the rest of us

Just my opinion, but I think that the tape is enough.
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post #13 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 11:24 AM
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Ben, you are cracking me up. No detail is too minute!

...and this is in the driest basement I've ever been in!

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post #14 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Haha - glad you are having a good laugh Andreas! But shouldn't you be off building your theater?? Don't you have a baby on the way or something?? I am hoping that a little extra attention in this phase will prevent me from a potential issue somewhere down the line... But if I were you, I'd be laughing at me too haha!

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post #15 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 12:17 PM
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I'm too busy going to baby showers and birthing classes to work on my theater!

You are doing good work! Just don't get too caught up into every detail.

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post #16 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 12:25 PM
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The PL-300 is fine, I dryloked my walls first and used the pl-300 sticks great. I did not put any sealant on the t&g just taped them up.
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post #17 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Ant - I think that's my plan exactly. And is this also a license to blame you if I run into any trouble???

And thanks for the compliment Andreas!

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post #18 of 44 Old 11-22-2010, 10:46 PM
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The issue I have with not using applying adhesive to the full panel (with a notched trowel or something) is that depending how you squirt it on, you may leave air gaps behind the panel.

The goal of this process it to prevent any warm moist air from the room coming in contact with the concrete. Now other things like sealing seams with tape etc. will help prevent this as well but you want the foam and concrete to essentially be "as one" (as if the concrete were poured into the foam forms).

When I pulled foam off my dad's basement walls after a number of years I found that he just used a caulk gun to apply adhesive which left gaps behind the panels which did allow some moisture/mold.

Man, that took longer than I thought it would...

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post #19 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPh Drew View Post

The issue I have with not using applying adhesive to the full panel (with a notched trowel or something) is that depending how you squirt it on, you may leave air gaps behind the panel.

The goal of this process it to prevent any warm moist air from the room coming in contact with the concrete. Now other things like sealing seams with tape etc. will help prevent this as well but you want the foam and concrete to essentially be "as one" (as if the concrete were poured into the foam forms).

When I pulled foam off my dad's basement walls after a number of years I found that he just used a caulk gun to apply adhesive which left gaps behind the panels which did allow some moisture/mold.

No matter how you apply the rigid foam there will most likely be air gaps but they shouldn't cause any problems. The extruded polystryrene is mold resistant so there really isn't anywhere for the mold to grow or attach to. Also, very few basement walls are perfectly true or straight so even if you trowel on adhesive you can't be guaranteed a uniform attachment. Also, the foam along with the tyvek tape will serve as a vapor barrier. As long as your foam sticks to the wall you will be fine air gaps or not. I had to remove one of my foam panels months after I used great stuff to attach it to the wall to get to a persistent crack that was leaking. I had to break the panel apart to get it off the wall. It was attached very well to the wall.
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post #20 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barlav View Post

No matter how you apply the rigid foam there will most likely be air gaps but they shouldn't cause any problems. The extruded polystryrene is mold resistant so there really isn't anywhere for the mold to grow or attach to. Also, very few basement walls are perfectly true or straight so even if you trowel on adhesive you can't be guaranteed a uniform attachment. Also, the foam along with the tyvek tape will serve as a vapor barrier. As long as your foam sticks to the wall you will be fine air gaps or not. I had to remove one of my foam panels months after I used great stuff to attach it to the wall to get to a persistent crack that was leaking. I had to break the panel apart to get it off the wall. It was attached very well to the wall.

Some good points. I am just trying to differentiate between "adhesion" and "sealing". My dad's was stuck very well to the walls as well. I had to use a wide putty knife to scrape it off in pieces. There have, however, been some comments that seems to focus more on keeping the panels from falling off the walls which isn't really the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barlav View Post

As long as your foam sticks to the wall you will be fine air gaps or not.

This I would disagree with. The OP references a diagram in his build thread of which he is trying to follow "very carefully"... anally... and it goes into detail about sealants, adhesive, or gaskets which is the same article I referenced when constructing my own. The article that went with the diagram (which isn't posted in his thread) went into more detail.

Keeping consistent with that is where I recommend going a little further which is what I did as well.

At the end of the day there are a lot of professional opinions out there (which mine is obviously not, professional that is) about how to insulate a basement. I think most agree that at least one goal is to keep warm, moist air from coming in contact with the cool concrete wall where the moisture will condensate. There are a variety of lengths one can go to accomplish this and also an amount of duplication in the process.

[stepping on soap box] Lastly, I have typed many a response in the past about water issues as my previous home's basement flooded twice in two weeks. The OP sealed with drylock. Why? Are there any issues with water you are blocking or is it just duplicaiton as well. Hopefully, it is just duplication of an overall water plan which includes grade, gutters, and drain tile. I have seen far too many basement theaters in here damaged as a result the lack of an overall water plan. [stepping off soap box]

Man, that took longer than I thought it would...

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post #21 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Guys - Thanks for the input. I must admit, I think this is the most interest I have ever generated in a thread on AVS - very exciting! Having said that, you're scaring me Drew! The horror stories of basement water here are what prompted me to get into all of this Drylok, moisture, foam etc. stuff.

My house was built in 2001 (I am the second owner - purchased in April of this year) and, although I don't want to jinx anything, I have had no moisture since taking possession (other than when I had the A/C replaced and the technician forgot to hook up the line to the condensate pump and it ran for 2 days before I noticed - NOT funny - soaked the half of my basement that is already finished, but that's another story).

So anyway, I had a few tiny hairline cracks in the forms that I patched with Drylok FastPlug, then put Drylok over the whole thing, just for good measure. I haven't seen anything that would indicate that I actually needed to do this, but again, I'm admittedly anal . I cut and dry fit most of the insulation last night and then actually applied about 1/3 of it.

My method was to use four evenly spaced horizontal lines of PL-300 across each piece of foam. Then when starting the next piece, I repeated with the glue and added a small bead of Great Stuff to the tongue and groove joint to try to get a good airtight seal between boards. I then taped the seams with Tyvek tape for good measure. This solution worked very well, although it was definitely overkill on the glue (but I wanted to be sure I didn't end up with big air gaps).

To anyone who may come across this thread in the future - I am clearly a spaz and this method is overkill given my particular situation, but to me, a few extra hours and dollars now has the potential to prevent disaster later, so is 110% worth it IMHO.

Thanks again to everyone for your input - here's a pic of my progress so far...

[IMG][/IMG]

That gray fireproof cabinet is just there to be sure the boards don't pull away from the wall at all. It was a house-warming present from the previous owners (more like it weighs about a gozillion lbs. and you need a crane to get it up the stairs, so they just left it).

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post #22 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 08:42 AM
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For whatever it is worth, the LePage brand tube of PL300 I have in my hand, clearly states "Foamboard Adhesive" right below the PL300 lettering.

I actually removed several foamboard sections off the foundation wall recently. These were installed about 20 years ago. My glue pattern was eight globs per sheet. Pretty sure I used PL300 when I installed them. The foamboard is likely the weak link in the glued up strength. The cement globs require a 4" concrete chiesel and a five pound sledge to remove. Doesn't take long to get to the "rubber arm" stage.
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post #23 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Tedd - glad to hear the PL-300 works so well! I agree that it's definitely the right thing for applying rigid foam to concrete. The only thing I was scared of at the beginning (and the impetus for this thread) was that in a caveat after the directions, the tube says "not recommended for use with sealed concrete". This concerned me because I put Drylok on the basement walls and I'm pretty sure that is considered "sealed". However, the PL-300 webpage doesn't say anything like that, and when I applied the glue last night, it appeared to work very well. However, I didn't go back down there this morning...maybe all the foam boards are laying on the ground haha! I doubt it - the PL-300 appeared to be the right solution, and gives peace of mind because it won't eat the rigid foam over time.

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post #24 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 09:24 AM
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My walls aren't sealed so the warning might apply, and the extra glue might just be prove to be wise.

The foam boards laying on the ground reminds me of my boss a few years back. His wife came home with wallpaper for the hallway, and made him do the hall before company coming over. He had plans of spending the day lazying about the pool, with a few brews. Got up the next morning and all the wallpaper WAS on the floor. Turned out it was a batch with defective glue!
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post #25 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 09:27 AM
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Please tell me you didn't miss the fine print on the Great Stuff bottle:

"DO NOT use as seal for interlocking XPS panels when taping seams. Interaction with tape glue will compromise the joint"




Just kidding of course (I'm sorry, just couldn't resist).
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post #26 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Holy crap Floyd you got me!! I read your message on my BlackBerry and I missed the bottom line of your note - all I read was the "warning!!" I almost had to run out of my meeting and puke in the bathroom! Thank you for that heart attack LOL!!!!

Don't worry, retaliation will be swift and fierce!

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post #27 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBenji View Post

Holy crap Floyd you got me!! I read your message on my BlackBerry and I missed the bottom line of your note - all I read was the "warning!!" I almost had to run out of my meeting and puke in the bathroom! Thank you for that heart attack LOL!!!!

Don't worry, retaliation will be swift and fierce!

Never meant to cause that much stress! Looks like you're officially hooked now though if you're reading your subscribed posts during work meetings

Getting involved here is similar to yielding to that old high school peer pressure, "awww come one, just take a little taste. It's not going to hurt you or anything". Before you know it, you're smoking a pack a day.
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post #28 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 12:54 PM
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Hey Ben, maybe you could put the glue on vertically for the rest of the panels? I'm thinking that would be a good idea so that any potential water on the walls could flow down into the channel. Don't worry about the panels you put up already though. I just think if you have a choice, vertical glue stripes might be better.

Please don't have a panic attack!

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post #29 of 44 Old 11-23-2010, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Haha yes that's definitely a good idea Andreas. I had been thinking about other options too. Maybe diagonally, or in a figure 8 shape? Kidding of course. But yes, you make a good point, and I think I will apply glue vertically from here on out.

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post #30 of 44 Old 12-03-2012, 10:59 PM
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I'm using Pl-300 as well with my xps 2" foamular board and wondering how did you guys brace it against the wall so that it dries and cures nice. It says on the bottle, sets in 20 minutes and cures in 7 days...holy dog bone.

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