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post #1 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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So we all know doors are the weak spot in our sound isolation projects. A hollow core door is somewhere around STC15. A solid door is close to STC27. If you do a good job sealing the door with an exterior threshold and weather stripping you *might* add 8 points to your door... maybe. That gives you an STC of 35 on a great day (don't even start with the problems of STC not covering below 125hz... it's just an easy number to compare for relative performance and besides it still demonstrates what everyone wants to tell you...)

When you go for a "real" sound proof door they're silly expensive. We're talking $3000+ per door for an STC45+. I just stumbled on these doors while browsing for some other info. They're from the makers of QuietRock and QuietSeal. The entry level model is STC44. They retail for ~$1700. I found a random link with them closer to $1300. That's cheap in comparison. It includes all seals and hardware and such. What do you guys think? Anyone here try these yet?

http://www.quietrock.com/soundproof-...ome-doors.html

http://quietsolution.stores.yahoo.net/stdo36.html
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post #2 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 01:16 PM
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We spec the STC51 THX doors for every build. They work very well. Whether the client uses it or not is strictly their perogative, but can't guarantee sound isolation targets without it.

Shawn Byrne
Erskine Group
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post #3 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Is that their high end door? How are they to install? Do you dig the finishes? Do the seals seem like they'll last?
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post #4 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Even better... here's a 32" version (previously linked 36" door), also STC44 but a little cheaper@$1,200

http://quietsolution.stores.yahoo.net/stdo32.html
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post #5 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 02:09 PM
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I can only imagine the price of the THX door if the others are $1300. I'll have to make my own I guess.
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post #6 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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It's $2500 for a 32" model and $2700 for the 36". It's super expensive and I'm also more likely to build my own and/or rely on space+construction techniques to get the desired reduction. Looks like a 3' gap is choice! (they use two STC51 doors spaced 3 feet apart to get STC80)
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post #7 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 02:15 PM
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SierraMikeBravo - do the 51s "click" when they are closed?

I'm looking for a door for a master bedroom that won't wake up my wife when I close it ... trying to avoid the sharp "click" that so many doors make.
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post #8 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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People - by all means post alternatives. If you think we can build one, show us what you're thinking. If you find another option, show us that too.
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post #9 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post
SierraMikeBravo - do the 51s "click" when they are closed?

I'm looking for a door for a master bedroom that won't wake up my wife when I close it ... trying to avoid the sharp "click" that so many doors make.
Hi Bruce,

Well, that all depends on how you installed the hardware/latch set. The answer is, yes, if you pull it without turning the handle/knob, but you may have to pull and hold it tight due to the seal to close it without making it click.

Finish is ok, but some designers will attach other stuff on the face, especially on the inside of the theater. So, with that in mind, you may want to look to see if they have any scratch and dents and get it possibly cheaper.

Regarding building another door...hmmm...well it can be done but keep in mind these doors are massive; meaning they weigh a whole heck of a lot more than any solid core door, which begs the question, what are they using on the inside?

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post #10 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by msmCutter View Post

People - by all means post alternatives. If you think we can build one, show us what you're thinking. If you find another option, show us that too.

I've been pondering what to use for my HT which is presently is the midst of a redo and after way too much thought on the matter I leaning towards just buying something outright. I don't require a door with the sound isolation of the THX version SierraMikeBravo spoke of but something in between a solid core and that would suffice, actually I'm reasonably certain a simple solid core likely keep any extraneous noises out. On a side note I'm a little surprised he mentioned the S word with respect to home theater isolation, I got the distinct impression awhile back that was a definite no know. Time to return those pebbles

If I were to build my own door I'd follow the no need to reinvent the mousetrap philosophy and pick up a used heavy solid core blank, add another hinge, line it lead sheet, and apply a decent looking skin to finish it off. Could likely do that for under $500.....in theory. But knowing how these things generally pan out for me it would take between 6 months to a year to source the materials and complete for a cost of at least 2.5 times the initial estimate and it would look like ****. Not worth the hassle, just spend 1-1.5k or more if that's required and be done with it.


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post #11 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

On a side note I'm a little surprised he mentioned the S word with respect to home theater isolation, I got the distinct impression awhile back that was a definite no know.

It is, but not with respect to defining a specific product. The Quiet Solutions THX rated door has an STC of 51.

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post #12 of 129 Old 11-29-2010, 07:25 PM
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It is, but not with respect to defining a specific product. The Quiet Solutions THX rated door has an STC of 51.

Damn, you found the only out.


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post #13 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 05:15 AM
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I have a design for a very low TL door that is very effective (no lab tests yet). Its about 300lbs when finished but unless you have a pretty elaborate shop at home, it would not be a DIY project...and I very much doubt anyone would fabricate it for $500.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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post #14 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 05:37 AM
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As for the DIY approach, I took a sealed, interior hollow core door and filled it full of sand. Obviously I have know idea what the actual ratings would be for the door but for the budget conscious two bags of play sand is affordable. The prehung, sealed door cost $90 from a local building supplier, the sand was $10 or so, and I replaced and added two hinges (for a total of five) with ball bearing hinges for about $20. The door slab itself ended up weighing around 125 lbs in the end.


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post #15 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post
I have a design for a very low TL door that is very effective (no lab tests yet). Its about 300lbs when finished but unless you have a pretty elaborate shop at home, it would not be a DIY project...and I very much doubt anyone would fabricate it for $500.
I thought briefly about making my own doors in the last few days, and did a little bit of research, but haven't found anything online that helps a lot. The manufacturers that produce acoustical doors aren't very up-front about their design or construction It also appears that many of the acoustical doors are steel rather than wood.

At first I thought about sandwiching some OC703 with 1/2" wood panels. But to do that, I'd still have a solid wood framework, and that framework would be the weak point. But I don't think that would really help make the door soundproof.

Then I started thinking about the little I've learned about the basics of soundproofing. I believe that two of the most critical elements are mass and damping. So how could I add mass to a wood door? What about sandwiching one or even two layers of 1/2" or 5/8" sheetrock between 1/2" wood panels. The sheetrock would add mass, and I could even use green glue to damp the sheetrock layers. The sheetrock is stiffer and heavier than fiberglass of course, but I'd still need a framework of solid wood to provide the strength needed for a door. I think I could use 1/4" edging to provide stiffness that would tie the layers together.

I plan to use flat panel doors. Each component of the door would have to be milled separately. If I used two layers of sheetrock in the rails and stiles, I'd use 1 layer in the panels. I'd use large floating tenons to provide sufficient gluing area to tie things together, and probably peg the tenons to make sure things held together. I'm a little worried about the drywall crumbling at the mortise/tenon joints, and I'd have to do some serious reinforcing at the hinge and lockset locations, but I think it might be worth a try.

But even with all this, I think a 32" door would be about 2 1/4" thick, and only weigh between 100 and 130 pounds (depending on the size of panels). So Dennis, did you sandwich lead into the mix?

Jeff


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post #16 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:04 AM
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Here what I did. I installed an exterioir grade solied core door, with all of the weather stripping etc. Then I took 3/4" mdf, wrapped in fabric and glued/stapled to the door. Heavy as hell and rock solid. I had to add extra hinges but works like a charm.
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post #17 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:19 AM
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I thought briefly about making my own doors in the last few days, and did a little bit of research, but haven't found anything online that helps a lot. The manufacturers that produce acoustical doors aren't very up-front about their design or construction It also appears that many of the acoustical doors are steel rather than wood.

At first I thought about sandwiching some OC703 with 1/2" wood panels. But to do that, I'd still have a solid wood framework, and that framework would be the weak point. But I don't think that would really help make the door soundproof.

Then I started thinking about the little I've learned about the basics of soundproofing. I believe that two of the most critical elements are mass and damping. So how could I add mass to a wood door? What about sandwiching one or even two layers of 1/2" or 5/8" sheetrock between 1/2" wood panels. The sheetrock would add mass, and I could even use green glue to damp the sheetrock layers. The sheetrock is stiffer and heavier than fiberglass of course, but I'd still need a framework of solid wood to provide the strength needed for a door. I think I could use 1/4" edging to provide stiffness that would tie the layers together.

I plan to use flat panel doors. Each component of the door would have to be milled separately. If I used two layers of sheetrock in the rails and stiles, I'd use 1 layer in the panels. I'd use large floating tenons to provide sufficient gluing area to tie things together, and probably peg the tenons to make sure things held together. I'm a little worried about the drywall crumbling at the mortise/tenon joints, and I'd have to do some serious reinforcing at the hinge and lockset locations, but I think it might be worth a try.

But even with all this, I think a 32" door would be about 2 1/4" thick, and only weigh between 100 and 130 pounds (depending on the size of panels). So Dennis, did you sandwich lead into the mix?

Jeff
You can always go with a "maze" if you have the room. It removes the primary wave.
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post #18 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jelloslug View Post
As for the DIY approach, I took a sealed, interior hollow core door and filled it full of sand. Obviously I have know idea what the actual ratings would be for the door but for the budget conscious two bags of play sand is affordable. The prehung, sealed door cost $90 from a local building supplier, the sand was $10 or so, and I replaced and added two hinges (for a total of five) with ball bearing hinges for about $20. The door slab itself ended up weighing around 125 lbs in the end.
How'd you fill it? Isn't the inside of a HC door a honeycomb?
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post #19 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:23 AM
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A hollow core door is somewhere around STC15. A solid door is close to STC27.
Just interested where you got those numbers. Jeld Wen, for instance, rates its hollow core doors from 24 to 27, while its solid cores are rated from about 30 to 34 (see here). While Masonite does rate its so-called Safe-n-Sound door at only 27, it rates its flush hollow core at 24. And you can do better than 27 even from Masonite - it rates its flush mineral core at 35 (see here).

Granted, these are not independently verified ratings. (And of course, STC tells you nothing about performance below 125Hz.) Are the door manufacturers exaggerating?
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post #20 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post
I have a design for a very low TL door that is very effective (no lab tests yet). Its about 300lbs when finished but unless you have a pretty elaborate shop at home, it would not be a DIY project...and I very much doubt anyone would fabricate it for $500.
Any ETA on when you'll be ready to release it or talk pricing or get it tested?
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post #21 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:29 AM
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What about sandwiching one or even two layers of 1/2" or 5/8" sheetrock between 1/2" wood panels. The sheetrock would add mass, and I could even use green glue to damp the sheetrock layers.
This makes we wonder: What kind of performance improvement would you get if you green-glued a layer of sheetrock to a door, say on only one side? Anyone hazard a guess?
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post #22 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Just interested where you got those numbers. Jeld Wen, for instance, rates its hollow core doors from 24 to 27, while its solid cores are rated from about 30 to 34 (see here). While Masonite does rate its so-called Safe-n-Sound door at only 27, it rates its flush hollow core at 24. And you can do better than 27 even from Masonite - it rates its flush mineral core at 35 (see here).

Granted, these are not independently verified ratings. (And of course, STC tells you nothing about performance below 125Hz.) Are the door manufacturers exaggerating?
I googled it. I don't think our numbers really contradict each other though. Those manufacturers might very well get those numbers (or cheat... but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt). Still, you're not really excited about any of those numbers are you? 24, 27, 35... still pretty low. Heck, even 51 isn't very good when you compare it to the 60+ double stud walls we're rocking. Granted, I think 2 STC35 doors on a DS wall would probably do the trick. But then again a DS wall+air lock door system is a PITA and totally not ideal.
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post #23 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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This makes we wonder: What kind of performance improvement would you get if you green-glued a layer of sheetrock to a door, say on only one side? Anyone hazard a guess?
What kind of door?
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post #24 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:49 AM
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Still, you're not really excited about any of those numbers are you? 24, 27, 35... still pretty low.
You're right, I'm not. I was thinking, however, that a higher number door would be a better start for a DIY modification (e.g., as described by sotwell) versus building a door from scratch. (One might think then of using a window-less exterior door like sotwell did, but their STC ratings don't seem any better and are sometimes worse than the better interior solid-core.)
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post #25 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:58 AM
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What kind of door?
Does it really matter? That is to say, would an improvement in STC scale with the original STC of the door? (i.e., Would the same modification done to a lower STC door yield less of a numerical increase in STC than if done to a higher STC door?) Let's assume for argument a Masonite Safe-n-Sound door with an STC of 27. (I don't have one of those but Masonite does promote them for "soundproofing" )
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post #26 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 07:59 AM
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Anyone ever try making a concrete door, 3" thick would be in the order of 500lbs. Would require steel fiber reinforced concrete like that found in shotcrete, a significant hinge system, and would carry with it significant crush risks should the hinges or the wall it's bolted to fail. Sounds like a great DIY project.


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post #27 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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The concrete door sounds awesome! DOOO EEEET!

As for the Drywall+GG+door it matters very much. It would make a bigger difference on a HC door. You'll notice each doubling of mass. To double a cheap HC door is easy. Heck, 5/8" drywall over that might triple or quadruple the mass. But over a SC door? Probably not as big a % gain. So what's the mass of your Safe-n-Sound door slab?

Also, I think MDF is heavier per sq/foot than drywall. It also doesn't crumble at the edges like drywall.
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post #28 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 08:57 AM
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As for the Drywall+GG+door it matters very much. It would make a bigger difference on a HC door. You'll notice each doubling of mass. To double a cheap HC door is easy. Heck, 5/8" drywall over that might triple or quadruple the mass. But over a SC door? Probably not as big a % gain. So what's the mass of your Safe-n-Sound door slab?
Unfortunately Masonite doesn't seem to spec the weight of its doors. But the spec sheet for the Safe-n-Sound (here) does specify using three hinges for 7' or smaller doors and four hinges for >7', so that might give us some idea.

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Also, I think MDF is heavier per sq/foot than drywall. It also doesn't crumble at the edges like drywall.
Good points. MDF would be a far better choice.
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post #29 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 08:59 AM
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How'd you fill it? Isn't the inside of a HC door a honeycomb?
This one was not. I had some strategically placed wooden blocks glued in the middle and that was it.


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post #30 of 129 Old 11-30-2010, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I bet your sand door works pretty well too. Any sand leaks?
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