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"Reel Time" Build Log-14' Scope, 9.7 17,000W Transducer Audio, Dedicated Stadium Room

57K views 367 replies 60 participants last post by  cowger 
#1 ·
Well, after viewing one build log after another here on AVS and dreaming of my own dedicated theater, I finally decided to pull the trigger earlier this year when we decided to go into a major house remodel. With the support of everything else we wanted to do with the home, I had enough justification to include a dedicated HT room off of the first level.


First off, if you've seen the name "Reel Time" in another thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1251515 ), you're correct. That's the thread that started with the project in March of this year (2010). I realized two things: 1) I didn't use a very good title as most folks have missed the build altogether and 2) I had too much in there about the entire remodel project (basement, new garage, second story of the new addition, family room remodel, etc.).


So, now nine months later, I've decided to stop posting in the old thread in start this one dedicated to items about the HT itself. There will be some info and pics about the addition build. But, only as it applies to the HT. I've got a lot to pass along, and I'll do that over the next couple of days.


Okay, so onto the HT build. I hope you enjoy and learn as I have by others' examples here on AVS. Please feel free to chime in with anything, good or bad. It's all okay as long as it's constructive!
 
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#103 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by scl23enn4m3 /forum/post/0




Everything looks awesome! Congrats on the build so far. Subscribed.

Thank you!
 
#104 ·
Very interesting build. I looked at your thread a while ago and assumed that the transducer audio was referring to the floor transducers shown earlier. I didn't realize the extent of the transducer audio.


How do the transducers perform in terms of sound pressure levels? It seems that with that much power available and that much surface area you have the potential for a lot of displacement.


I'm really curious as to how large panels will perform for high frequencies. It seems like it would take tremendous amounts of power (which you have) to make that large of a surface move 15,000 - 20,000 times a second.


Also looking forward to the FOSI install. I just finished my FOSI ceiling installation (what a relief to have that done)


Suscribed to your thread.
 
#105 ·
Stockmonkey2000,


I wish I could answer those specific questions for you. I will let MMan jump in and give you the most precise answer.
 
#106 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 /forum/post/21228941


Very interesting build....


How do the transducers perform in terms of sound pressure levels?....


I'm really curious as to how large panels will perform for high frequencies.

+1


Interested as well.
 
#108 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 /forum/post/21230022


I, also, didn't realize that "transducers" meant...the entire audio system? I know nothing about it and will continue to follow along and hopefully learn something! Glad to hear your enthusiasm for it after your first listening experience!

I spoke with MMan today and he'll be leaving some specifics on the whole transducer setup soon. He will leave the experience to me. I gave a review of what I can after tweaking the system for about 10 minutes. I still have two transducers to add to the left and right channels each since we changed the design mid-stream.


As I stated in my brief review, I'm very impressed with the system and amazed that drywall can produce sound of this calibre. I'm anxious to seal off the plenums for the front L/R, effects L/R, and center channels now and then do some more serious calibration. Still the room is quite hot with a lack of any soft/asborbing materials.


I'll keep everyone posted.
 
#109 ·
Ok Guys...here's the Skinny.


Audio Transducers such as the ones employed in RTD's system are decidedly simple things.


1. A 2.2 lb Alnico Ferrite Magnet Structure


2. A 1.5" Edge Wound Aluminum Vice Coil, which is both Frequency contoured, and heat dissipation assisted by the use of Ferro Fluid.


3. They are completely Sealed. Toss 'em in the Ocean for a year and no problem....they'll play just fine.


4. They are encased in a medium Density Composite Resin Plastic whose varying case thickness serves to both dampen and enhance Resonant Energy Transfer.


5. They come in 8 Ohm & 4 Ohm models. 200 Watts Max Output. 100 Watts Continuous.


6. Effective radial/hemispherical dispersion is 8' diameter from the epicenter of attachment.


History:


Curtis Rolen introduced the first effective Transducer designed to resonate "solids" in 1958. In 1962, the basic design still in use today was developed. Improvements on materials, casing design, the use of high temperature Adhesives, and the drastic improvements in Amp / Signal source performance in relation to cost to performance ratios have only served to make what has always been a unique item all the more effective.


That it gets no press, let alone "A/V Enthusiast" respect is due to the fact that it's primary market has been Industrial / Military applications. Also Medical. Also Artistic. And a lot of other things that have nothing whatsoever to do with this Thread, .


What is certain is that it's the efficiency at what the Transducer can actually do when attached to a wide range of solid materials that still have a degree of resonant ability is what makes it something that few have ever experienced...considered possible...and fewer still can even comprehend let alone accept.


But for me...that's where all the fun comes in!


My roots lay in the design and construction of big...as in BIG Sound Reinforcement Systems and PAs. Multiple Drivers in Multiple cabinets...the literal "Wall of Sound" concept. God knows I'm personally responsible for the destruction of many of my generation's Inner Ear Cilla.....and most obviously my own. For me, db Ruled.


I digress.


In Red Top's system, the creation of multiple Driver arrays to accommodate effective dispersion of energy into the room was/is the primary goal. This can be compared to the example of the original "Wall of Sound" first advocated by Julian Hirsch in 1964....where 12 - 5" Full Range speakers were mounted in a specific pattern onto a 8' x 6' Wall enclosure. That led to the use of multiple 12" Extended Range Drivers, Exponential Horns, and Rear Loaded Bass Horn Cabinets to create a uniform "Blanket" of sound in huge areas.


Ouch.


But those same ideas and concepts still hold fast to deep truths. Distribute energy evenly and efficiently across a wide area and both accurate frequency production and dispersion will produce a physicality and presence that is at one more natural and uncolored than most directional speakers.


That's why the very most expensive conventional speakers more oft than not employ "many" drivers arrayed to distribute sound in such a manner as to make perceiving "directionality" almost impossible.


The Audio Transducer accomplishes this by imparting accurately produced frequencies (35 hz -18.5 khz on Drywall ... 20 hz-20 khz on Glass ) into a structural Solid via a focused point, and then the frequencies themselves radiate outward, with the highest Freq. waveforms localized at the center, Mid Range freq. traveling out until they reach their own specific point of resonant saturation, and the Bass freq. traveling out to the perimeters of a surface where their resonant energy can rake advantage of the increased mass of such broader, wider expanses.


Compare a 8' diameter resonating surface to a 8" diameter Full range speaker and what you have is simply a super-sized version...something akin to the huge Driver whimsically portrayed by Robert Zemeckis in "Back to the Future" and blasted by Marty McFly . A silly analogy, yes...but essentially a good visual representation..


So what about Red Top's system? Well if one Transducer can effectively energize up to 8' in diameter of Drywall or Wood...or Fiberglass...or anything resonant, the how well will am array of 2...or 4...or 8 such devices accomplish the same goal? (Shoot....I've used up to 16 Transducers on a 16' x 9' Screen Wall!")


The key to creating something "out of this World" lies in making a structural solid resonate accurately. Bending it's molecular structure to your collective will by imparting just enough energy over a broad enough area to cause it's molecules to do exactly what you want them to do.....aurally speaking.


I have a couple analogies I've used a few times over the last 33 years to help explain why using greater numbers of transducers is not a lesson in redundancy...but rather a cause to an effect.


Using a quantity of such Transducers is a way of doing what a Choir accomplishes. If you take a single vocalist and place him in a Sanctuary, even one with excellent acoustics, he'll be able to only go so far as to filling that space with energy (ie: volume...presence)


Now have 7 other Choir members join him. No one is trying to sung any louder than the solo member was singing, but collectively, the energy imparted into the room produces a significant increase in volume due to the saturation of frequencies into the air. Add another 49 Choir members and....



Now as far as energizing a structural solid.....


Suppose your driving a full sized car along and at the bottom of a hill you run out of Gas. You try to push the car uphill, against resistance and gravity, to the Gas Station you know is just ahead at the Top. You might make it...but what a chore! But hooray! 7 of you Buds come along, lay hands on the Fenders and together you just about effortless move that car up the hill.


Well, brook no mistake, accurately resonating a solid's molecules at any real volume with a single Transducer is a Yeoman's task. Always has been. Background Music? Sure. Moderate entertainment levels? absolutely. Full blown high volume Home Theater or Critical Listening? Best not send a single Boy to do a Man's job. But call out the entire 5th Grade class and see how fast you get it done!.


So now I gotta explain the difference between db and SPL production. (...no more cute examples....I promise...)


The Transducer produces Resonant frequencies.

The Solid it's attached to accurately resonates to said frequencies.

The Frequencies spread out across the opposite surface the Transducer is mounted to, each specific frequency finding it's own specific saturation point where it resonates the molecules to that frequency. No Frequency interferes with another...no cancellation occurs (...when units are properly spaced...)

As the surface of the Solid resonates, the air (ie: volume & pressure) itself that lies against the resonating surface sympathetically resonates, and that imparted energy cascades outward in a chain reaction of resonant energy transference.


The Audio Transducer's 180 degree hemispherical dispersion creates what can be considered to be the most perfect example of a omnidirectional sound dispersion pattern that could be obtained from a flat planar surface. As such, very effective db levels can be obtained, levels that are not accompanied by the normally expected Sound Pressure Levels that would otherwise be expected from such decibel levels.


This decided lack of sound pressure means that many acoustic concerns and considerations are effectively negated to a great extent...if not indeed actually eliminated. (...The Transducer uses this ability to excel at the art of Sound masking...)


For Red Top, the purpose of the design was to deliver the maximum aural and physical presence possible, but at the most comfortable decibel levels. On the past I've used all manner of amplification t accomplish such tasks. Everything from lowly Pioneer and Panasonic Receivers to Sony's and Yamaha s. I've seen Harmon Kardon Citation Amps...McIntosh s...Carver Studio Grand...Krell...and a few European Esoteric s that cost as much as my last 2 cars combined.


But in the end, it's all about simply having enough "clean" power and reserve headroom to be able to deliver unadulterated, accurate amplified frequencies to the transducer, and then using the correct number of devices needed to energize the mass of the solids involved without over taxing a single unit, or trying to over saturate a material with too much focused resonant energy from a single unit or a combined array of the same.


Too whit, it's no stretch to be able to understand that "expense" does not always relate to "effect. Judicious choices of equipment combined with effective design, adequate construction, and yeah....a bit of a crazed desire to do what many feel is patently impossible, can combine to deliver something that defies the accepted conventions of the A/V world.


Hey....did I mention about the Painted Screen?
 
#111 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan /forum/post/21231817


Hey....did I mention about the Painted Screen?

Not yet.....


In actuality, the painting of the 12' wide 16:9 Screen using S-I-L-V-E-R went very well, and pretty quickly. The resultant image was excellent.


But.....



The Primer undercoat, which went on via a Low Nap Roller prior to my arrival on-scene, re-introduced itself. Although RTD did a great job at rolling, and under a straight on examination before spraying the surface, and under normal lighting.... looked pristine, once the High Contrast S-I-L-V-E-R went on, across the top edge downward you could...under the PJ's light and with lightly hued content (Sky...etc,), see some vertical lines (roller marks) that came down into the image area about 6"-8". That's where most such marks occur because of uneven roller pressure, and in the case of such a flat white, if they are not an actual "tactile" ridge, it takes an additional layer of a darker paint to bring them out.


So at this conjecture we have a 2-3 options.


1. Wait for 3-4 weeks to see if the marks fade and frame in whatever dimension / format screen we want.


2. Spray Coat the surface with 3 coats of a ultra Dark Gray tinted Primer and then Re-prime with White and re-coat with S-I-L-V-E-R


3. Cover the wall surface with a Black Out Cloth or similar material and spray on a High performance coating. ***

*** RTD has determined just of late to go back to having a 2.35:1 CHI affair. That might mean the Roller Marks up top might not be any further issue (yay...
)


Here is a collection of shots of the Screen in progress. Note the heavy Duty Air Exchange/Filter System! Suck---Whooosh!




Here are a few shots of the Screen in action:





Does it look good? Is it still worthy despite having a few streaks? You tell me.....and for reference note how the "Adult" people below are stretched out laying prone on a dusty Plywood floor for 2 hours watching Captain America, actin' like Kids up on the first Row of a Movie Theater.


That's Lovin' it....absolutely!





A side note to my previous post:


Please excuse me if my explanation of the Audio Transducer system seems a bit too "layman-esque". I'm driven by the experiences of the past and having to explain such stuff to individuals who are more than just a bit clueless. Well that, and the fact that those with a "clue' often discount such a application out of hand.


But even more so, I don't want to personally expound too greatly upon the aspects and attributes of RTD's Transducer system. That's for him to do...or not. His was essentially a DIY'er thing, with my presence more of a "Helping Hand" and Adviser than as a "Contractor". Lemmie tell ya sumpthin...RTD is the most "Hands On" individual I've ever combined forces with, and the Theater you see on this Thread.....90% of it is all his doing....his efforts built it. It's all more than just impressive....it's almost intimidating!



Anyone who wants any particular further illumination of the Transducer and it's workings may contact me via PM.
 
#112 ·
First, thanks to MMan for all his too kind comments in his last post. Only trying to make it all it can be! I'll do the hands-on grunt work to keep the experts like MMan focused on the big stuff!


MMan noted the vertical streaks that can be seen in the bright scenes. I thought I had rolled the primer to perfection, but I guess not. Sounds like prepping to get ahead screwed us up as the primer probably should have been sprayed on.


However, it looks like we will be doing a redo on the screen to support going back on my decision to have a large 16:9 screen and forgo CIH. MMan and I are still talking about it, but the best move may to go with a PJ with lens memory and have settings for zooming to 2.35, large 16:9, and a smaller 16:9 that will have a picture that won't be cut off by the front row seats/heads. More on that to come I guess.


I worked on filling the plenums of the center, left, right, and effects channels with batts and then closing them off with drywall. Pictures below show the batts with the cutout areas where the transducers are located. Pulled out all the insulation and left the paper.






I finished to late Monday night to test the sound improvement out. Got home late Tuesday and couldn't find time then either, but did have five minutes to step into the HT when my boys were watching a movie. I'm pretty sure it made a big improvement. Just didn't have enough time to full listen to it, and I "was distracting the boys and their movie!" I headed down to Ocean City, MD yesterday for the long weekend, so I'll have to post a review next week!


Back on the change to the HT for the screen size, I'm thinking I'll be going with (if we can make it all work!) a 2.35 size of around 14-15' wide. To make that work the front corner walls had to be cut back to allow more of the screen wall to be visible. In the pictures below, you'll see that we have more wall to prep and paint! I think it looks much better just in cutting back the walls to about 40" wide instead of just under 60". Here's a rough before and after look.


BEFORE




AFTER




BTW, the blue tape on the wall in the picture above denotes a 14', 14.5', and 15' wide scope screen. I can go 15' and still have ever seat in the HT see the full screen, so that's my max width. If I went the CIH route, I would want the 14.5' or 15' scope in order to get a 16:9 that was large enough for the room. If I go the zoom route, then I can expand and contract accordingly as needed.


One final update - I ordered all the trim for the room. Lots of baseboard, crown, and casing. With the tall ceiling and large room, I had to go with some beefy moldings. I've got lots of cuts coming my way with those wall bumps! Baseboard is one thing, but that crown will test my patience!


Finally, Happy Thanksgiving to all!
 
#114 ·
52 transducers plus we relocated eight and had to fill back in those holes with screws. That's 6 screws times 60 so 360 total. So yes, lots of screws! My drywall finishing guy will not be happy and will think that I went nuts with a 12ga!
 
#116 ·
WOW!
Very cool project, watching closely
 
#117 ·
Sorry for the long time between updates (for anyone that might be following)! I've been mostly concentrating on all the wiring in the A/V closet and making everything neat and tidy in the racks.


I was running net cables and distributed audio cables also, and finally got my Sonos system set up this past weekend so the wife could have holiday music playing around the main level for holidays.


I also moved all of the equipment out of my family room into the rack, including the plasma TV controller, two DirecTV HD DVRS, and my trusty Yamaha AVR. That move required me to pull the TV down and route all the cables from the rack in the HT through the hard conduit I had installed. I also took the time to run a cable to control the TV IR without having to point the remote at the TV anymore. Everything else was RF controlled, but you always had to point at the TV to have it control anything on it. No longer!


Spent a good bit of time getting the family room remote, a URC MX-980, all set up the way I want it and in a layout that allows anyone in the family to operate it. It's so much better utilizing the URC MSC-400 controller to handle all the macros. Extremely reliable operation and fairly straight forward to set up.


Drywallers just finished the room, ending with sanding on Tuesday. So I have lots of dust in the room I need to tackle on Saturday before I do anything else. I'll be starting on the trim next. Photos of current state below:


Set up a dust wall in front of the A/V rack. Worked great!




Picked up the doors for the room entrance and the A/V closet. Both are solid core 1-3/4" doors




Shot of the front of the room




An early Christmas present to myself. Saw Dewalt's brand new 12" slider (DW780) was on sale with stand on Amazon and picked it up. Just in time for all that trim work!




Side Wall Shot




Dust wall I set up at the room entrance. Absolutely no dust in the house by using the exhaust system. Happy Wife - Happy Me!




All the trim sitting on top of the star ceiling. All waiting to go up!

 
#118 ·
Looking forward to seeing the star ceiling. Yours is the first I have seen here where the pre-made panels were purchased from FOSI. Just finished my star ceiling from FOSI a month ago and am really enjoying it and also very relieved to have it finished.
 
#119 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 /forum/post/21356331


Looking forward to seeing the star ceiling. Yours is the first I have seen here where the pre-made panels were purchased from FOSI. Just finished my star ceiling from FOSI a month ago and am really enjoying it and also very relieved to have it finished.

Hopefully I'll be unpacking that big crate before too long! I read through your thread on the issues you had. That would have driven me nuts. I'm a huge DIY guy, but I needed to place my attention elsewhere just from a time standpoint. So I bit the bullet and went with the pre-made panels.


I'm anxious to see it myself. Stay tuned!
 
#120 ·
NO, you are not seeing double! Read on...




Okay, so I've gone back and forth on my PJ setup and screen size. I seriously doubt I'm the only HT builder here that has done that! The original plan was to have a 14' wide scope with an A-lens setup for CIH. Then I didn't like the 16:9 size I got for my viewing distance and room size and decided I would ditch the A-lens and CIH and go zoom with lens memory to support the scope size I wanted and the 16:9 size I wanted.


Of course, that meant I had to look for a PJ that had lens memory and that narrowed down the field. I was leaning towards the new JVC's, but I got concerned about some of the issues that still persist, and I'd be dropping some serious lumens. I just couldn't get behind the Panny, even the new one based on the reviews. The Epson 61000 - well, who knows if that will ever come about. Even with the Epson or JVC, I'm looking at $6-7K for a PJ, which is nothing to sneeze at - at least for me. The 61000 is 2D only and the 3D on the JVC is giving folks a lot of issues thus far.


So I went rogue, and started considering a dual PJ setup. While 3D isn't a huge item for me, I'd like to give it a good whirl. The 3D coming out of the new JVC's seems to be an issue and many are pointing to the DLP's if you want good 3D, like the HD33. Only issue there is you have no lens shift making it difficult to mount. Then I considered the idea of getting two identical PJ's that will support the following thoughts/needs:


1) High lumen output for the screen sizes I'm looking at (see below)

2) Very good darks/contrast

3) Decent 3D

4) One PJ dedicated to 2.35

5) One PJ dedicated to 16:9

6) Possible dual gun 3D setup for passive viewing


So with MMan's help again, we landed on pulling the trigger on the new Epson 6010. With a great price to justify getting it over the 5010, I get (from reports and reviews thus far) a great machine, two extra bulbs, two mounts, and four 3D glasses.


Now we'll need to work on the PJ mounting and throws, but this is my thinking right now. Based on the calculator on ProjectorCentral, I can have the two screen sizes I want and still have the throw distance and PJ position the same for each one.


Desired Screen Sizes:


2.35 Scope = 180" (15') wide x 77" tall, 196" diag

16:9 = 144" (12') wide x 81" tall, 165" diag


I can have the two PJ's at the exact same throw distance of, say, 20'-5" with the scope PJ at a 2.1x zoom and the 16:9 PJ at a 1.69x zoom. I can go +/- with that to stay away from the lens extremes, but you get the general idea. I'd have my setup to support the two viewing formats without any complication of A-lens, curved screen, etc. I have to keep it simple for the family to operate!


If I ever do go to a dual gun 3D setup, I've got the same PJ for each and I would just need to tweak the zoom of the scope PJ. Do some lens shift and viola! At least that's the basic idea.


I know I'd have to get up in the hushbox and change things around manually for this, but I can only imagine doing it for that big 3D event and then put everything back away. At least I have the option!


Well, that's where I'm at right now. MMan didn't get enough of us and is coming back into town between Christmas and New Years. We'll be redoing the screen, addressing some drywall and primer issues that came through the paint, and making it a lot bigger!


We've already been discussing some masking plans with fixed side panels for 16:9 and a single bottom mask panel for scope moving the image so there's only one bottom bar and not the typical top and bottom. Can't think too much about that right now.
 
#123 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy /forum/post/21357623


Aren't you still going to be throwing away like 25-30% of your PJ's resolution into drawing black bars in 2.40 mode without the A-lens ?

No doubt I'm not using all of the pixels in the panel of the scope projector since I'm doing zoom. It's a compromise in the end. I've read the threads were folks go back and forth and sacrifice their children in the name of A-lens vs. Zoom. I'm not really siding with one or the other. I had the A-lens, and just switched the setup to try to find the best compromise all around. I can still go with an A-lens later if I wanted, but I wouldn't need the lift of the one I have that I will be selling.


I'm also compromising on the contrast of a JVC to the 6010, but that's a cost decision vs what I get from the 6010. I was trying overall to minimize the costs all around, knowing that newer PJ's are on the horizon and I can switch if I want to both or just one.
 
#124 ·
I will be buying a PJ myself in a a year or two and have been thinking about this same thing. The cost of the A-lens just seems insane to me, I mean they are almost as much as the projector themself! Ideally by the time I am ready to buy my PJ 4k projectors will be more affordable (it's all relative) and then the zooming method has no real disadvantage for 2k material.
 
#125 ·
May I ask why two projectors instead of using the zoom memory function? You mentioned you did not like the size of the 16:9 at 14' wide and decided for a 12' wide instead. What didn't you like? Too much area for the seating distance?


Thanks so much for the level of detail provided on this thread. I wish I had seen it before I built the room of my HT. But it has been truly inspirational, I know, cliche and all :)
 
#126 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos /forum/post/21359104


May I ask why two projectors instead of using the zoom memory function?

Outside of the Panny, the only other PJs that have lens memory are the new EPSON 61000 (yet to be released) at $6K MSRP, and the new mid-level JVC and Sony, both at around $7K MSRP. I really didn't want to go with the Panny, and the JVC and Sony had two primary issues: 1) they are around $7K each and 2) they are rated for 1800 lumens max. Between those two I would lean towards the JVC, but it's still an unknown on the lamp life and the 3D has a good bit of crosstalk. So at that price point, I just didn't want to bite. The main draw for me to the JVC would be the contrast and the 4K-lite which would benefit me for for the scope. But in the end I looked at it and the 6010 is 2,400 lumens and I can have two of them for the price of the JVC. While I'm sure there are benefits outweighing the 6010 in the JVC, I just couldn't look past the fact I could have two PJ's for the price of one. Especially given the brighter lumens, very good darks, good 3D, glasses included (4 when you buy two PJs), and the possibility of running a dual gun 3D setup in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos /forum/post/21359104


You mentioned you did not like the size of the 16:9 at 14' wide and decided for a 12' wide instead. What didn't you like? Too much area for the seating distance?

I was talking about a 14' wide constant height image (CIH) when using the A-lens. A 14' wide 2.35:1 scope screen is 71" high. Keeping the height at 71" equates to a 10'-6" wide, 145" diag 16:9 screen. The two PJ's are just letting me do what the lens memory would have on a single (i.e. going back and forth between the two maximum screen sizes for each format). I'll be going for something between a 14'-15' wide 2.35:1 on the one projector, and a 12' wide, 81" high, 165" diag 16:9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos /forum/post/21359104


Thanks so much for the level of detail provided on this thread. I wish I had seen it before I built the room of my HT. But it has been truly inspirational, I know, cliche and all :)

Thanks Carlos! It certainly has been a journey. I'm looking forward to the end of it, or at least the first Phase!
 
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