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post #601 of 1236 Old 09-21-2012, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

Why do I have a feeling I am never going to hear the end of this biggrin.gif.
Yes, there are lots of options for the wiring. Are buttkickers typically wired in parallel? If not, I will probably go ahead and run wires to each chair just in case and then coax to each rear corner of the riser for future use. The unused wires can remain hidden under a cover plate.

Depending on your amp, you would want to wire for the least resistance possible.

The BK1000 is stable to 2 ohms (I've read guys running them at 1 ohm), and the classic buttkickers are 4ohm I believe.. So in that case you'd want to wire in parallel or series parallel to get as close as you can to 2 ohm.

Really depends on which kickers you have and which amp(s) you have.. wire to get the most juice to them without blowing em up.

If you have a lot of amps and want to run them separate, rock on.. although you might chip a tooth sitting in those chairs biggrin.gif

Tim
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post #602 of 1236 Old 09-21-2012, 06:22 PM
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But a home run for each buttkicker is still acceptable, because you can join the ends at the rack to reconfigure, right? or does the extra length of wire become a problem for such high-current, low impedance loads?
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post #603 of 1236 Old 09-22-2012, 03:51 AM
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In parallel it wouldn't matter.. In series it may be a concern, depending on how much juice you're sending them and how long the runs are. If you have more than two you are likely to be using some sort of series-parallel wiring, unless you have a 2-ch amp.

Extra wires are always good smile.gif Just mentioning it in case you're like me, where you need 301 feet of wire but order 300..

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post #604 of 1236 Old 09-22-2012, 11:27 AM
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Hi Nick (& Geordon), I caught the mention of the SubMersive and thought I'd add a suggestion for the sub wiring. If you aren't afraid of soldering or screwing on some connectors, you can instead get some bulk Canare Star quad install cabling from MarkerTek.com which can be terminated with either RCA or XLR connectors in the future. Just get the cabling in and terminate after you select your subs. The install version of the cable is a different model as it is rated for in-wall use and has a more durable grey jacket for pulling through walls & ceilings.

Here is the direct link for the wire. "Permanent install" is the version you want.

Mark Seaton
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post #605 of 1236 Old 09-24-2012, 03:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark, Thanks for the info. Terminating the cables later is not an issue. The only question is, should I run enough cable length so that they are terminated at the sub, or is it acceptable to run the cable to a faceplate in the riser and terminate it there. Then have a second cable connected at the faceplate that runs to the sub?
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post #606 of 1236 Old 09-24-2012, 03:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

Depending on your amp, you would want to wire for the least resistance possible.
The BK1000 is stable to 2 ohms (I've read guys running them at 1 ohm), and the classic buttkickers are 4ohm I believe.. So in that case you'd want to wire in parallel or series parallel to get as close as you can to 2 ohm.
Really depends on which kickers you have and which amp(s) you have.. wire to get the most juice to them without blowing em up.
If you have a lot of amps and want to run them separate, rock on.. although you might chip a tooth sitting in those chairs biggrin.gif
Tim

At this point, I am leaning towards running wires to each chair from the rack. I may never use them, but I will have more flexibility in the future.
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post #607 of 1236 Old 09-28-2012, 03:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I wanted to provide a quick update on my progress this week. I will provide further details and pictures this weekend.

I finished filling and leveling the sand in the main cavities of the stage. Even though I didn't have much time to work on the theater, I moved a couple of bags a night and finished it up. I still have several bags of sand left, so I think I am going to fill some of the curved cavities as well. Hopefully I can get the rest of the sand in and cut the top this weekend.

My speaker wire for the riser came in yesterday. I just need to stop and pick up some electrical boxes for the step lights. I should have everything else I need to finish up the riser with the exception of digital coax for future subs.

Lastly, I stopped by and checked out Jim Salk's shop yesterday on my way home. Jim and his wife were great hosts. I got a full tour of the shop and we spent some time talking about speakers and speaker design. Having heard Jim's speakers in the past, my biggest concern was finding a surround speaker that would fit in a reasonably sized column. I am trying to avoid columns that stick way into the room. Based on our conversation, that won't be an issue. It is amazing how much sound he gets out of such a small speaker. I need to get my riser, soffits and columns done before I get to that stage of the project though. I'm sticking with my original plan to not order items until I need them.

More to come this weekend.
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post #608 of 1236 Old 09-28-2012, 03:50 AM
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That's great that you have a custom speaker builder within driving distance. It would be cool to see pics of his workshop. Looking at the bracing for his subs he would almost certainly have to have a cnc (or contract it out).

I would also make provision for connecting buttkickers in series. I think you could probably do this after the seating is in place? The issue being if you had to hook one of them up in series, you don't want a 50' run the the buttkicker, then a 50' run back to the closet, then another 50' to the next buttkicker in series.

I think you could probably just run it in the seating, but wanted to throw it out there. My buttkickers are in the riser, so I had to run the wire from buttkicker-to-buttkicker through the joists before I put the plywood down.

Tim
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post #609 of 1236 Old 09-28-2012, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Tim - Everything at Salk is done in house from what I could see. They have some amazing equipment (and some amazing workers) to produce the speakers.

As far as the wire length, My rack will be right next to the back row of speakers, so I don't think length will be an issue. I could always wire them under the chair starting with the first one if required. I think running wires to each chair from the rack gives me more options. As you mentioned, having the buttkickers mounted in the chair rather than the riser gives me some flexibility.
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post #610 of 1236 Old 09-30-2012, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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First, I have to say that those of you that build your theaters in a few months are machines! I put quite a bit of time in on the theater this weekend and feel like I hardly made any progress. Not only do many of you work fast, you do amazing work.

My lesson learned for the weekend - I can't hear my wife yelling down the stairs to me when I am in a soundproof theater with hearing protection on and a saw running. She thought I was ignoring her - honest, I wasn't biggrin.gif.

OK, on to the progress. I ended up putting sand in the larger of the front curved stage cavities. I had extra sand and figured it couldn't hurt. It didn't add that much time. For the really small cavities that it was difficult to stuff a plastic liner into, I just filled them with fiberglass insulation. When I was done with the sand, I went back through and leveled it with a wooded board and cleaned up the extra sand.



One strange thing that I found with the sand was the difference in quality from bag to bag. 90% of the sand that I put into the stage was a very fine sand just like play sand. It was a very consistent tiny grain. I didn't think much of it as I went through the bags. As I was getting to the end, the sand in the last few bags was courser. It almost looked more like extremely tiny pebbles mixed with sand. I don't think it will make a difference, but i was surprised by the variation in quality from one group of bags to the next.

I don't know if you can see it in these pictures, but here is the "clean" sand:



Here is the "course" sand:



Once I was done with the sand, I put down a layer of roofing felt as a vapor barrier between the sand and the wood.



Lastly, I cut both layers of OSB to top off the stage. I was a little nervous about cutting the curve in the stage, but it came out pretty good. It is not perfect. In a few spots, if you look closely, it is a bit wavy, but you have to look to see it. I hope the carpet covers up the flaws.







I couldn't decide how large to make the lip - 1 1/2" OR 2", so I split the difference and went with 1 3/4". I did some experimenting with rounding over the corners. When I was at Home Depot today they had a Freud 1/2" round over bit that was regularly $37.99 on clearance for $15.00. I decided to give it a try. What I think I am going to do is round over the bottom side of the bottom sheet of OSB and then round off the top edge of the top sheet. Here is a picture of a small section I did. You really can't tell what it looks like from the picture. I hope it is enough of a radius.

I'm curious what size radius others used. My decking is two layers of 3/4" OSB, so it is pretty thick.



With all of that done, I still need to finish routing the front edge and put down the second layer of wood with Green Glue between the layers. I also need to cut the wood for the step. I plan to use the cut-off piece from the upper portion of the stage since the radius matches exactly. I will just need to mark and cut the front edge. Hopefully I can work on that during the week. Although, I may get a bit distracted. I have a new toy arriving for the game room on Tuesday. It is something I have been trying to find for a very long time.
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post #611 of 1236 Old 10-01-2012, 06:30 AM
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For my riser (not stage) I had two 3/4" sheets as well. I used a 1/2" roundover and did what you plan to do. Round over the underside and then do the same to the top. The 1/2" in the middle is basically a flat vertical surface, but one you get carpet wrapped on it, it will look good. I don't recall the exact dimentions, but I think that I went with a 1 1/2" lip (stuck out 1 1/2"). I *THINK* so anyway. If you went 1 3/4", you will be fine. The idea is to give the carpet layers (as in the people installing it) something to staple the carpet to up under the front. You will have that with what you did. Good job!
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post #612 of 1236 Old 10-02-2012, 03:54 AM
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I used a different construction technique (I'm not carpeting the edges); my edges were 1" thick with 3/8" roundover.

If you are carpeting, I think what you have done will be perfect. Especially the $15 part of the edge biggrin.gif

Are you doing 2x 3/4 for the step as well? I found the cutoffs didn't match perfectly.. which is probably not a problem if you are using carpet.

Tim
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post #613 of 1236 Old 10-02-2012, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I am planning to do two layers on the steps as well. Mainly so that it looks the same as the top of the stage. I wanted the steps to have the same thickness. I haven't tried the cutoffs yet to see how they fit. I may try them tonight.

I finished routing the edges last night. Hopefully tonight I will be able to secure the first layer, put down the Green Glue and then put on the top layer.
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post #614 of 1236 Old 10-02-2012, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I was able to attach the top of the stage tonight. It was pretty straight forward. The screws I used were long enough to go through both layers of OSB and attach to the joist below, so I put a limited number of screws on the first layer just to hold everything in position. I then put down the green glue and put on the second layer of OSB. I am amazed at how solid the stage is with the two layers of OSB. It made all of the effort worth it. The best part is that the Green Glue hasn't even cured yet, so it can only get better.






The two layers lined up perfectly and the roundover on the two pieces looks great. I was worried at first, but I think it will look fine with the carpet installed.



Next up is the steps.
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post #615 of 1236 Old 10-02-2012, 06:10 PM
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Nice!

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post #616 of 1236 Old 10-03-2012, 08:11 AM
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post #617 of 1236 Old 10-07-2012, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Hopefully no one was listening last week when I said that I was hoping to finish the step on my stage before the weekend. I got a little side tracked, so it didn't happen. I finally received a game for the bar area that I have been searching for for a long time. It is a 1958 Bally Skill Roll. While there isn't a whole lot to the game, it is extremely addicting. You drop a nickel in the slot on the top of the game and then use spring loaded flippers to try and work the nickel to the bottom of the game without the nickel falling into a hole along the way. The first few rows are pretty easy, so it makes you feel like you are making progress. When you lose your nickel half way down, you feel like you need to drop another nickel in the game because you are certain you will make it all the way the next time. I could see someone dropping a lot of money in this game after a few beers. Because gambling was illegal, the game would light a star and ring a bell if you made it all the way to the bottom. The nickel was also held in place at the bottom so that others could see it. You could then show the bartender that the star was lit and he would give you a pack of cigarettes, a free beer, or even money (all under the table of course).

Any way - enough with the history lesson. This game is going to need a full restoration before setting it up by the bar, but I couldn't help but see if I could get it up and running (hasn't worked in years). I spent a couple of evenings working on it and almost have all of the kinks worked out of it. I decided to set it aside and get back to the real task at hand - the theater.





Saturday afternoon I finally had some time to get back to the theater. I was able to finish up the step on the stage. I cut the two layers of wood, filled the steps with insulation, rounded over the edge and installed everything with GG between the two layers. All I can say is that I am glad that is done. The room looks very different with the stage completed.





I also had a little bit of time today to work on the riser. I installed the last piece of plywood on the front of the riser. I also was able to install the boxes for the step lights. I used Carlon adjustable boxes so that I could move them out once the carpet and padding are installed. I hope there is enough space above and below the box once the carpet is installed.



I also installed boxes in the rear of the riser and drilled holes for the electrical to be run. The inner two boxes will be used for outlets for the chairs (two duplex outlets for the four chairs). The outer boxes will be for low voltage wiring. I hope that I can find a face plate that will allow me to install two sets of speaker wires for the Bass Shakers and a wire for a potential future sub.




I stopped there for the day. I wasn't sure how close my speaker wires can be to the electrical wires. How much distance do I need to leave between them? I need to figure out how I am going to route all of the wiring before I continue. I also need to install 4 more boxes on the face of the riser for the front row of seats (two for speakers and two for electrical). I hope to push forward on the riser this week. If all goes well, I will get the wiring done before the weekend (unless I find another game biggrin.gif).
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post #618 of 1236 Old 10-07-2012, 05:12 PM
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i like your stage ..... i still need to finish the first step on mine also smile.gif..... so dreading filling the stage with sand ...maybe next weekend i will do it ........ 50 bags or so should do it eek.gif
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post #619 of 1236 Old 10-07-2012, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snickers1 View Post

i like your stage ..... i still need to finish the first step on mine also smile.gif..... so dreading filling the stage with sand ...maybe next weekend i will do it ........ 50 bags or so should do it eek.gif

Not to scare you, but I used 94 bags.
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post #620 of 1236 Old 10-07-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
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Not to scare you, but I used 94 bags.

i hope your stage is much bigger than mine eek.gif
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post #621 of 1236 Old 10-07-2012, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Snickers, how big is your stage? Mine is about 18.5' wide.

EDIT:

I just took another look at your build thread. I think you are going to use at least 75 bags. Just my guess, but I don't think 50 will be even close if you are filling everything but the step. There is a calculation on the bag of sand that tells you how to figure out how much you need. I think you will be surprised to find out how much it takes.
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post #622 of 1236 Old 10-08-2012, 04:05 AM
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You can use a 6-position keystone cover plate and get four banana jacks and one f-conn. Fill the last spot with a blank.

12" between the low- and line-voltage line is the rule of thumb.

...and 50 bags of sand won't get you very far, snickers wink.gif I think I used over 80 of them for 12' wide. I don't remember exactly how much because I am trying to erase the trauma of carrying all of them from my mind biggrin.gif
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post #623 of 1236 Old 10-08-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

Snickers, how big is your stage? Mine is about 18.5' wide.
EDIT:
I just took another look at your build thread. I think you are going to use at least 75 bags. Just my guess, but I don't think 50 will be even close if you are filling everything but the step. There is a calculation on the bag of sand that tells you how to figure out how much you need. I think you will be surprised to find out how much it takes.

well you just ruined my week LOL!!
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post #624 of 1236 Old 10-08-2012, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

You can use a 6-position keystone cover plate and get four banana jacks and one f-conn. Fill the last spot with a blank.
12" between the low- and line-voltage line is the rule of thumb.
...and 50 bags of sand won't get you very far, snickers wink.gif I think I used over 80 of them for 12' wide. I don't remember exactly how much because I am trying to erase the trauma of carrying all of them from my mind biggrin.gif


man the money we spend on stuff that will never be seen ..... tongue.gif
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post #625 of 1236 Old 10-21-2012, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Work has been really busy and I really haven't made much progress. I was hoping to have the riser done by now, but that didn't happen. Fortunately, I had a little bit of time to work on the theater this afternoon and made some progress.

I now have all of the wiring in the riser pulled. Before I do the final stapling of the wires and put in the insulation, I wanted to list what I did one last time to make sure i didn't do anything stupid, or forget something.

I have 4 boxes in the back of the riser. Each of the outer two boxes have two pair of 12 gauge wires and a coax cable. The plan is to have the speaker wires available for butt kickers (likely won't need all of them to run back to the amp, but wanted to allow for future changes). The coax will be for a potential future sub. The inner two boxes are for electrical - to power the seats.

In the face of the riser, I ran two step lights, two boxes with 12 gauge speaker wires for the front seats and two more outlet boxes.

Hopefully this week I will have some time to do the final stapling of the wire and put the insulation in. I also need to determine if I have enough Green Glue for the top of the riser. It is going to be close.

I have been playing around with Middle Atlantic's rack tools program. Once the top is on the riser, I can take some final measurements to determine what size rack will fit.
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post #626 of 1236 Old 10-22-2012, 03:56 AM
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The only other thing I could think of is network wiring.

Tim
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post #627 of 1236 Old 10-22-2012, 04:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The only other thing I could think of is network wiring.
Tim

I thought about that. I'm not sure it is necessary since I will have the rack right there. Plus, most devices are wireless now, so if I am sitting in my seat, I most likely won't need a cable for a handheld device. On the other hand, I do plan to have a couple of ports on the front of the rack to hook up test equipment, etc.
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post #628 of 1236 Old 10-22-2012, 09:01 AM
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I keep thinking about this for mine, and I am still on the fence. Maybe you'll find need or interest in having some kind of connection for handheld devices - maybe an HDMI for a laptop or tablet or something - so someone in the seats can hook up without leaving the playback device at the rack. It's one of those future-proofing concepts, that I don't know how will turn out. I'm thinking about just some large-ish conduit near the rear seats, since I won't be able to predict the cable type.
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post #629 of 1236 Old 10-23-2012, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I finished stapling most of the wiring in the riser last night. I also started installing the insulation. I got four rows finished. I decided to stop there until I could determine if I had installed enough insulation in the riser. I started another thread here to get some feedback. If R19 is good enough, I will continue installing insulation tonight.
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post #630 of 1236 Old 10-28-2012, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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In an effort to keep things moving along, I got some time in on the theater this weekend. I finished insulating the riser. I ended up just using the R19 I had on hand. It is 6 1/4" thick and the joist in the riser are 9 1/2" thick, so there is only a 3 1/4" space that isn't filled with insulation. I'm hoping that with the R19 and two layers of 3/4" OSB with GG between the layers I will be happy.



I also got the two layers of OSB for the main portion of the riser cut. I still need to remove the second layer so I can put the GG down. I just wanted to make sure everything fits first. Then I need to cut the pieces along the front where the curve is, as well as the steps.



Something is wrong with one of the adjustable outlet boxes I installed on the riser. It no longer will move in and out. I don't know if it was somehow stripped. I can't easily get to it to replace it, so I will need to try to pull it up or put an extension on it.

Hopefully I can finish up the rest of this riser soon. I have a couple of days off in November and a friend has offered to help with the soffits. I am hoping we can get the soffits framed in a day so I can start running wiring to the rest of the theater. Then I can get my electric panel and some lights installed.
NGiovas is offline  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

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