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post #151 of 1236 Old 03-21-2011, 03:46 AM
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You'll need a dedicated 20A circuit for the bathroom GFCI receptacle, which has to be installed within 3' of the lav. You can't install anything but the bathroom receptacle (and bathroom lights/fan) on that circuit.

For the bar area, any receptacle within 6' of the edge of a wet bar sink must be GFCI. I would either run 2 20-amp circuits to the countertop area or ask your building department if they are going to consider the wet bar area an area "similar" to a kitchen.
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post #152 of 1236 Old 03-21-2011, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

You'll need a dedicated 20A circuit for the bathroom GFCI receptacle, which has to be installed within 3' of the lav. You can't install anything but the bathroom receptacle (and bathroom lights/fan) on that circuit.

Just one clarification - you don't need a dedicated GFCI for this bathroom ... you do need a dedicated GFCI for bathroom receptacles, but multiple bathrooms can share a GFCI circuit. If another bathroom's GFCI circuit runs reasonably close to this bathroom, you can share the circuit between the two bathrooms. Or even if it's not close, I guess you can still share the circuit. Eventually it comes down to whether it is easier to tap into the existing GFCI or run all the way back to the panel. Or how many hair dryers you plan to run at the same time ...

It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds.

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post #153 of 1236 Old 03-21-2011, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Brian, that is also good info, but unfortunately there are no other bathroom near this one (even on a floor above). It will only be about 15 feet to the panel, so it will just add a new circuit.
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post #154 of 1236 Old 03-21-2011, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the note Tim. I was working on my electric plan this weekend and wasn't sure exactly how to interpret the bathroom GFI rule. I wasn't sure if it was a dedicated circuit for the entire bathroom with a GFI for the outlets, or if only the GFI outlet could be on this circuit.

I also was drawing up the bar area and wasn't sure about the outlets for the dishwasher and ejection pump. I had planned on using GFI outlets above the bar and counter. Your comment about it possibly being treated like a kitchen is a good point. If I can slip out of work a little early sometime this week, I was planning to stop by the inspectors office. They seem to be very helpful and willing to spend time with you if you stop in, but aren't as friendly if you start asking a bunch of questions over the phone.

One other quick question for you, if I am using a non IC can light, is there an issue if it comes into contact (or is very close to) a metal HVAC duct? Two of my lights will share a joist with a duct and I wasn't sure what the inspector would say about that. I think that an IC fixture is going to be too tight. I would only run the insulation to either side of it (3" away) so that shouldn't be an issue. this would be in the non theater area, so I am not as worried about sound control.
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post #155 of 1236 Old 03-21-2011, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sands_at_Pier147 View Post

Just one clarification - you don't need a dedicated GFCI for this bathroom ... you do need a dedicated GFCI for bathroom receptacles, but multiple bathrooms can share a GFCI circuit.

Yes, you are correct. However, if you share among bathrooms then you cannot utilize the circuit for additional bathroom equipment, such as bathroom fans and lighting. So before doing that you will need to make sure an existing circuit is not powering lights/fans/etc in the existing bathroom.

I generalized just to make it easier to understand. However, since you brought it up, now we know the entire section

Tim
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post #156 of 1236 Old 03-21-2011, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

Thanks for the note Tim. I was working on my electric plan this weekend and wasn't sure exactly how to interpret the bathroom GFI rule. I wasn't sure if it was a dedicated circuit for the entire bathroom with a GFI for the outlets, or if only the GFI outlet could be on this circuit.

If you dedicate the circuit to that bathroom, you can power everything in the bathroom. I personally would tap the bath lights into another lighting circuit and have a dedicated GFCI receptacle. But it is easier and permissible (at least here it is) to have 1 20a circuit power the whole bathroom.

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Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

I also was drawing up the bar area and wasn't sure about the outlets for the dishwasher and ejection pump. I had planned on using GFI outlets above the bar and counter. Your comment about it possibly being treated like a kitchen is a good point. If I can slip out of work a little early sometime this week, I was planning to stop by the inspectors office. They seem to be very helpful and willing to spend time with you if you stop in, but aren't as friendly if you start asking a bunch of questions over the phone.

Yes, the code does have a "or similar areas" quip in there. Best to get the interp from the AHJ or just plan on treating it like a kitchen. I personally would not treat it like a kitchen, but the avenue is there for others to interp differently.

I would say the ejection pump needs AFCI protection, so I would recommend a separate circuit from any GFCI receptacles that may be required. GFCI on an AFCI circuit is possible, but it creates a lot of problems. I am told that when you reset the GFCI receptacle, it pops the AFCI breaker.

A lot of this is going to depend on if the wet bar is a "similar area".

Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

One other quick question for you, if I am using a non IC can light, is there an issue if it comes into contact (or is very close to) a metal HVAC duct? Two of my lights will share a joist with a duct and I wasn't sure what the inspector would say about that. I think that an IC fixture is going to be too tight. I would only run the insulation to either side of it (3" away) so that shouldn't be an issue. this would be in the non theater area, so I am not as worried about sound control.

E3904.8 requires that non-IC recessed luminaires have 1/2" clearance from combustible materials.

Metal HVAC duct is not combustible, so I don't see an issue.

Tim
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post #157 of 1236 Old 03-21-2011, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Tim. More excellent information. This is very helpful. I prefer to fully understand these types of things when going to see the inspector so that they feel confident that I am capable of doing the job. I like the idea of the bathroom light being on a separate circuit so that if the outlet blows the lights won't go out.

What is your opinion of using a GFI breaker instead of a GFI outlet? Probably overkill for only one or two outlets in the bathroom, but possibly worth it for the bar area?
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post #158 of 1236 Old 03-21-2011, 06:52 AM
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GFCI circuit breakers are usually not cost effective. Also, if the GFCI protection trips, you have to go the panelboard to reset them, which can be an issue if you are.. err.. nekkid

You can always chain additional receptacles off the GFCI protection from the GFCI receptacle.

Also be aware if the wet bar is a "similar area", 2 dedicated 20a small appliance circuits are required.. so you would be installing 2 gfci breakers (or gfci receptacles).

If it's not a similar area, the you would just have to protect the receptacle(s) within 6' of the sink, and they would not require a dedicated circuit.
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post #159 of 1236 Old 03-24-2011, 04:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I've started looking into insulation for the ceiling of my theater. My family room is above the theater, so this is strictly for sound control. The issue I am having is that the joists are 2x12 12" on center and I can't find any un-faced insulation in that width. Which would be better:
  1. Buy 16" insulation and squeeze it into the smaller space. The local store seems to have R19 in 16" insulation. If I stuff that into a smaller space, am I reducing the effectiveness of the insulation?
  2. Buy 24" and cut it in half. Lowes has 24" unfaced insulation that is R19. If I cut it in half I could make it fit the space without having to compress it, but it would be a lot more work. I'm not sure if this is worth the extra effort.
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post #160 of 1236 Old 03-24-2011, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

I've started looking into insulation for the ceiling of my theater. My family room is above the theater, so this is strictly for sound control. The issue I am having is that the joists are 2x12 12" on center and I can't find any un-faced insulation in that width. Which would be better:
  1. Buy 16" insulation and squeeze it into the smaller space. The local store seems to have R19 in 16" insulation. If I stuff that into a smaller space, am I reducing the effectiveness of the insulation?
  2. Buy 24" and cut it in half. Lowes has 24" unfaced insulation that is R19. If I cut it in half I could make it fit the space without having to compress it, but it would be a lot more work. I'm not sure if this is worth the extra effort.

Nick, you are using the insulation for sound absorption, not heat conduction control, so some squishing is acceptable.
Look how dense sound fiberglass board is, the OC703/705 stuff.
I have both and they absorb sound fine.

My engineered joists were 16" OC, I stuffed them with R30, kraft side towards the HT to help block mid/hi sound freq.
I still had a slight air gap to the floor above.
You might be able to get away with using R30 and just tuck it in there nice and tight!
My ceiling 3.5 years ago- this was done before I learned about green glue/etc, still the sound transmission to the family room up there is very minimual, except the LFE which nothing will block.
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post #161 of 1236 Old 03-24-2011, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mike. I knew when installing insulation for temp control you don't want to compress it. I didn't realize that it isn't as important for sound control. I have seen other people post about using the paper faced insulation to help with high frequency transmission. I guess I need to understand this a bit more before I start insulating the ceiling.

I'm working with BPape on the design of my theater. He is just starting, so I don't have his final plan back yet. I should probably not get too far ahead of myself without checking with him first. I have a few other things I can do while he is working on the plan.
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post #162 of 1236 Old 03-24-2011, 07:53 AM
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Kraft paper simply makes the installation easier. Use either.

You want to minimize the compression of insulation. OC703 is great ON a wall due to the compression, but OC703 is less effective IN a wall.

I would personally special order the proper 12" insulation. You could also cut 24" to 12", or take 16" wide R13 and fold it carefully in the 12" cavity.

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post #163 of 1236 Old 03-24-2011, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback Ted. I am going to make some phone calls to find out about ordering 12" insulation. Would you recommend ordering R19, or just stick with R13?
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post #164 of 1236 Old 03-24-2011, 08:09 AM
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If you found 12" wide material, I'd go R19

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post #165 of 1236 Old 03-27-2011, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I didn't make a lot of progress this week. It was my son's birthday on Friday, so we did a lot of things with him this weekend. Plus, last fall I promised someone who wants to buy one of my pinball machines that I would have the restoration done by the Ohio Pinball Show. I just realized last week that the show is this Saturday . I had several finishing touches to put on the machine, plus I wanted to make sure it was fully tested. Fortunately, I am now pretty much done and just need to move it out of the basement this week so I can take it to the show.

With all of that said, I did do a couple of smaller things for the basement:

  1. Based on the discussion around insulation, I stopped by the Pro Desk at Home Depot to see if they could order 12" R19 for me. Unfortunately, the Pro Desk isn't open on the weekend, so they told me to call back on Monday for pricing.
  2. The ceiling joists above the theater are 2x12s, but there is a slight bounce when someone walks on the floor above. They used some thin 1X material to make cross braces, but they don't really do a very good job. I purchased some 1x10 material to make some blocking to brace the floor. Hopefully it will reduce the bounce. My plan is to cut them so that they are tight, apply some construction adhesive to the sides and top of the block where it meets the sub floor, apply slight pressure using a jack and they screw the blocking in from the sides.
  3. I don't know if it is necessary, but I applied bead of acoustic caulk along the base plate within the theater. I will still fully caulk the first layer of drywall, but I figured this would ensure that the bottom of the wall is fully sealed. It only took about 3/4 of one tube to do the entire room.
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post #166 of 1236 Old 03-27-2011, 07:02 PM
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Hey Nick - I just did exactly the same thing with the bottom plates...I'm pretty sure one of Ted's soundproofing manuals (or maybe Dennis told me to do this) said to apply a bead to the bottom of the base plate before installing it, but that was an oops on my part... I spoke with Ted and he said it was no problem to put it on the front of the plate as you (and I) did.

Looks like your project is coming along well!

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
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post #167 of 1236 Old 03-28-2011, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Ben. There are so many things I have read about theater construction that I just can't remember them all. I am trying to make a list of things I want to do, but I am sure I will miss some. This is one of those things where after the fact I saw where people had caulk or foam under the base plate before installing it.

I guess that is one of the advantages of not going as fast as I would like - it allows me time to do more research to prevent mistakes and rework.
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post #168 of 1236 Old 03-28-2011, 08:34 AM
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Is there a little gap between the framed walls and the concrete?

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post #169 of 1236 Old 03-28-2011, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Is there a little gap between the framed walls and the concrete?

I noticed that when I posted the picture it was deceiving. There is a minimum of a 1" gap between the framing and the concrete wall. Because the concrete is not perfectly straight/square there is as much as 3 inches. It doesn't touch the concrete anywhere.
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post #170 of 1236 Old 03-28-2011, 11:54 AM
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I saw Ted's question and I was holding my breath for you on that one Nick! That picture is deceiving!

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
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post #171 of 1236 Old 03-28-2011, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBenji View Post

I saw Ted's question and I was holding my breath for you on that one Nick! That picture is deceiving!

One of the reasons I post pictures of so many boring things is just in case someone catches something like this or has a better idea on something. Fortunately, for this one it wasn't what it looked like.
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post #172 of 1236 Old 04-06-2011, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Not much progress since I spent last week finishing a pinball machine and going to the Ohio pinball show on the weekend. At least that is over so I can focus on the basement again (oh, wait, there are two more shows week )

I was able to call Home Depot about ordering the insulation for my ceiling and walls. My ceiling joists are 12" OC and the walls I constructed are 24" OC. I found out that some of their stores do stock the 23" insulation bats in both R19 and R13. It is much cheaper to pick it up from the other store vs. special ordering it. In addition, it will also save me a significant amount of money cutting the 23" insulation in half instead of special ordering the 12" R19. It is almost 35% cheaper. I know cutting it won't be fun, but this will allow me to pick up what I need at the local store and save some money at the same time. If I need more, I can always run and buy another role.

I am still struggling with how I am going to handle my HVAC (zones, mini split, etc.). I am starting to lean towards breaking my house into 3 zones.

I also need to finalize my electrical plan. I am almost done, but have some rework to do in the bar area before I can finalize it.

With any luck, I will be back at work on the theater in the next couple of days.
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post #173 of 1236 Old 04-06-2011, 07:03 AM
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Hey Nick - I know I already sent this to you in a PM, but just be aware that if you're talking 3 zones, you're talking significantly more $$ than just a 2-zone system (at least that's according to my HVAC estimates). I think you'd also be talking an extra supply trunk for each zone (but I'm no expert on that). Sorry to throw another variable into the mix! Good luck with this!

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
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post #174 of 1236 Old 04-06-2011, 07:23 AM
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Is your comment based on taking an existing 2 zone system adding a 3rd zone as being a large expense? or just taking a single zone system and turing it into a 3 zone?

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Hey Nick - I know I already sent this to you in a PM, but just be aware that if you're talking 3 zones, you're talking significantly more $$ than just a 2-zone system (at least that's according to my HVAC estimates). I think you'd also be talking an extra supply trunk for each zone (but I'm no expert on that). Sorry to throw another variable into the mix! Good luck with this!

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post #175 of 1236 Old 04-06-2011, 07:32 AM
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I'm talking going from a single zone to 3 zones. I could easily be wrong here as I have never done it, but the several HVAC estimates I had done quoted significantly more for additional zoning.

My understanding of way the 2 zone system works is that it's basically a motorized damper that attaches to 2 main supply trunks and can select either/both of them to be open. The 2 thermostats have the ability to power on/off the furnace/air conditioner and select either/both dampers to be open/closed to heat/cool the selected area(s). Again, total novice here, but this is what I have gathered...

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
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post #176 of 1236 Old 04-06-2011, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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What makes my situation complex is that my existing HVAC system has a single supply trunk that runs across the entire basement and feeds ducts that are going to all parts of the house. The issue is that there are ducts going to all floors coming out of all parts of the trunk. I can't simply add an electric damper for a single trunk or even one section of the trunk to shut off a portion of the house.

If I am going to create zones, I would need to put a damper on every duct (I have 20 in the entire house) and have a controller to determine which need to be open or closed at a given time. I would then have a thermostat for each floor to set a temperature for a group of ducts. I think i can figure that part of it out, but I have two major concerns:
  1. The two upper floors are of similar size and woudl probably not cause much (if any) back pressure if they were running independent of the rest of the house, but I am very concerned about back pressure if I am only turning on the sytem to cool the theater and not providing air to the rest of the house. My understanding is that there are pressure release valves that can help with this, but I don't know anything about them or how they work.

  2. If there is a small DC motor on each duct, what is the likely hood that one may fail in 10, 15 or even 20 years? Because some of the ducts will be behind drywall in the basement ceiling, I wouldn't be able to easily get to them to replace the motor if necessary. I'm hoping that they have a very low failure rate and this isn't a major risk, but I simply don't know.

My wife is very interested in zoning the entire house so that we can adjust the temperature by floor, and this provides a better solution for the theater, but I don't want to go overboard redesigning the entire system.
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post #177 of 1236 Old 04-06-2011, 08:35 AM
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Nick,

I recently ran into this same scenario. I ended up going with the Arzel Zoning system. I think I ended up with 28 dampers total and a 4 zone system. I had them put any dampers that wouldn't be accessible in the future right at the register just in case they did fail, they could be easily replaced.

My concern was also servicing the theater which is a smaller sized room. The Evergreen zoning product they have allowed me to control that room independently. You can set the size percentage of your zones which controls the 5 speed variable fan. So for the theater, the fan will run at a slow speed. They even have a Coolmizer product that would allow me to cool the theater in the winter months by letting outdoor air in. I'm still looking into this one. While I haven't connected the theater zone yet since it's not completed, I'm hoping it's going to work as expected.

BTW, 4 zones is the max with the Evergreen system. Hope this helps.
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post #178 of 1236 Old 04-06-2011, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBenji View Post

I'm talking going from a single zone to 3 zones. I could easily be wrong here as I have never done it, but the several HVAC estimates I had done quoted significantly more for additional zoning.

My understanding of way the 2 zone system works is that it's basically a motorized damper that attaches to 2 main supply trunks and can select either/both of them to be open. The 2 thermostats have the ability to power on/off the furnace/air conditioner and select either/both dampers to be open/closed to heat/cool the selected area(s). Again, total novice here, but this is what I have gathered...

Yea I can see that being pricey.... I currently have a 2 zone system and when our house was built I had the builder up the size of our current HVAC to handle the load of adding a fully finished basement. So I'm expecting my back end cost to be lower to simply connect in and add a 3rd damper... but we'll see. I'm going to have them come out next week I think and give me a quote.
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post #179 of 1236 Old 04-06-2011, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Mario,

That looks very interesting. Do you mind me asking how much it cost to have this system installed? I'm guessing they won't sell to a homeowner for DIY installation.
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post #180 of 1236 Old 04-06-2011, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I made a couple of phone calls and found out that both Aprilaire and RCS make a 4 zone controller that will work in conjunction with my HAI OmniPro II automation panel. The way it would work is that the OmniPro II can control up to 64 thermostats (this will allow me room for future expansion ). So I would have one thermostat for each zone (like any other zoned system). The Omnipro would control each thermostat (setting hi/low temp, etc) and the zone controller would then operate the dampers based on the thermostats request for heating/cooling. All of this functions as I had hoped.

The more complicated part is the back pressure. They sell a motorized static pressure controlled damper that is placed between the supply trunk and the air return trunk. If too much pressure is building in the supply trunk, the system will open the valve in the pressure release duct and allow the excess air to flow back through the system without building up pressure. The trick is to properly calculate what size bypass is necessary for your system based on the smallest zone. Both places told me that if done properly, the theater could in theory be on its own zone. With only one 8" duct feeding a single zone. They thought I would need at least a 20" bypass. I will need to do some math on the size of the supply trunk and the amount of air provided by my system. I will probably have to have some help with that to make sure it is right.

Knowing all of this, I think I am headed down the right path to designing a system that will benefit the whole house - not just the theater. Mario mentioned that his system is able to pull in cold air from outside during the winter. I mentioned to one of the suppliers I talked to that it would be nice to switch over to exterior air to cool the theater during the colder months. They mentioned that this could be done using my existing outside air temp sensor (to determine if the outside air is cooler) and writing some code to switch off the zone and turn on some form of inline fan to pull air in from the outside. I am going to need to look into this further.

Once I have further detail around cost and functionality, I will post the information. If the cost is too high, it may be better to skip the DIY route and look at having someone else install the system. On the hand, that would take all the fun out of it.
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