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post #241 of 1236 Old 05-17-2011, 08:18 PM
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It only took a few seconds of googling and I'm just pasting the first one I found, so try the terms from the site as search terms to find other suppliers. Looks like these are two slots like you requested, too.
http://www.atlantasupply.com/swscrip...ID=CCATSEL_AS2

All I did was look at their commercial section http://www.atlantasupply.com/commercial-registers.htm
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post #242 of 1236 Old 05-18-2011, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't laugh at me, but whenever I search for "linear slot diffuser", "HVAC register", etc. I just get manufacturers, not sellers. I was shocked that they are so expensive. I had found one other place that custom makes them for $56 each. Maybe that wasn't such a bad deal. I don't know why I had it in my head that something so simple would be like $15.

I am also going to call a couple of local HVAC suppliers now that I have a better name. Maybe they will know what I am talking about now.

Thanks for looking that up for me.


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post #243 of 1236 Old 05-18-2011, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking for opinions on these two diffusers. Which do you think would look better? My plan is to paint them flat black and mount them in the ceiling. Both types are custom made and will take 4 weeks to get. The first is available locally. The second I would order online.

Option 1: This one is what I am leaning towards. I specified two 1/2" slots. It would be 36" long. The inside is powder coated black, but the exterior is powder coated white and would need to be repainted. It has a hidden mount, so you wouldn't see any screws. These are $76 each (local pickup).



Option 2: This one is about half the price ($36), but I don't know how it would look on the ceiling. This one would be 2"x36" - not including the flange. It also has concealed mounts. The blades on the grill are 1/5" angled at 15 degrees. They would come in unfinished aluminum.



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post #244 of 1236 Old 05-18-2011, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post
I'm looking for opinions on these two diffusers. Which do you think would look better? My plan is to paint them flat black and mount them in the ceiling. Both types are custom made and will take 4 weeks to get. The first is available locally. The second I would order online.

Option 1: This one is what I am leaning towards. I specified two 1/2" slots. It would be 36" long. The inside is powder coated black, but the exterior is powder coated white and would need to be repainted. It has a hidden mount, so you wouldn't see any screws. These are $76 each (local pickup).


Not that you need another DIY project Nick, but could you make those yourself out of wood?
Router the slots, paint the board, speaker gasket to seal it on the back, screw it for attach...just thinking.
Save some $$.....time vs money.

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

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post #245 of 1236 Old 05-18-2011, 05:08 PM
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Does anyone know where I can purchase a diffuser like the one in this picture. I would prefer one with two slots instead of three, but either will work. I would love to find something online since whenever I call the local HVAC suppliers, they seem to have no idea what I am talking about.
That's a linear diffuser. You can get them with however many slots you want.

In my experience they are not a stock item. You specify what you want (there are many options: concealed screws, mitered corners, number of slots etc) and they order it for you.

You also have to order the box for it, which is usually fed with a few takeoffs so you get even airflow.

TO sum it up, expensive and a pita to do properly.

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post #246 of 1236 Old 05-18-2011, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post
You also have to order the box for it, which is usually fed with a few takeoffs so you get even airflow.

TO sum it up, expensive and a pita to do properly.
So if you went through the website aackthpt posted, it would be another $56.

That is expensive.


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post #247 of 1236 Old 05-18-2011, 05:22 PM
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So if you went through the website aackthpt posted, it would be another $56.

That is expensive.
Compared to a plain register, it is.

More importantly, you would need room to route the 8" takeoff the $56 plenum has.

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post #248 of 1236 Old 05-18-2011, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Tim and Mike for the replies. Mike, one of the issues is that the back side of the diffuser is designed with a curved metal strip that is painted black and blocks your view of the inside of the duct while allowing the air to flow through. I'm sure I could make something out of wood or metal, but I doubt it would be worth the effort and would not look as integrated.

Tim, I agree with you about the expensive part. I am not sold on this solution yet, but I also don't want to kick myself down the road for not making the theater exactly the way I wanted it. I spent some time talking with the local distributor who I would order them from. He said that the particular design he quoted me is designed to be flush mounted in drywall with concealed clips/screws. They offered the matching boxes/ducts to mount them in, but the air inlet hole was on the long side which would be facing a joist and would not work. He suggested making a custom duct/box out of duct board with the round inlet on the end so that I could connect my flex duct. I could then simply cut the appropriate size rectangular slot in the bottom to fit the diffuser. While digging through threads looking for ideas this weekend, I noticed that SandmanX did something very similar with duct board and a linear diffuser. His just weren't between the joists.

I'm certain I can make the diffuser's work. The bigger challenge I am facing is getting the supply lines to the right spot. I think one will work as it is, but I will definitely need to run a new supply duct for the second supply line and I haven't figured out how I am going to route it through the joists yet.


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post #249 of 1236 Old 05-18-2011, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post
Compared to a plain register, it is.

More importantly, you would need room to route the 8" takeoff the $56 plenum has.
Actually, the boxes are custom also (at least from the local distributor) and they can be made with a 6" inlet. I still am looking at making my own box.


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post #250 of 1236 Old 05-18-2011, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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You guys are posting faster than I am replying tonight

I hope SandmanX doesn't mind me borrowing a couple of his photos to show you what I am talking about. Here is a photo of the duct with the slot cut into it:



It looks like he used a 4x36 supply to feed the entire room:



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post #251 of 1236 Old 05-19-2011, 02:48 AM
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Did you figure out how many CFMs you needed? I know I had figured it 2 different ways-- making a lot of assumptions-- I'll have to go back and read what was the verdict on the equipment location.

Point being.. is this linear too big.. too small.. could you get away with something else..

A lot of these registers have an NC rating.. Meaning some diffusers are just quieter by design.

Bigger is quieter.. but you lose face velocity and the air is not distributed properly.

But the starting point is the number of CFMs you need (divided by 2, if you are doing two supplies)

ps- I am digging the look, either way.

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post #252 of 1236 Old 05-19-2011, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Tim. I have been stuck on this issue for some time and really don't want to get it wrong. I am thinking about having someone come in and quote completing the supply and returns for the theater. They will probably have some better ideas of how to route it through the joists and can calculate exactly what is needed.

I'm not really sure how to pick an HVAC person. I have read lots of stories about people talking to contractors who tell them they don't need to do all of this work for a theater. I guess I just need to call a few and see what they say.


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post #253 of 1236 Old 05-19-2011, 05:02 PM
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I would go over to hvac-talk and try and find somebody local.

I would ask any potential contractor if he has software to do the load calcs.

For the life of me I don't know how a person can be in the hvac business and not be capable of during the load calcs (I mean.. how big of a unit do you install if you don't know how much cooling you need??)... yet they abound.

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post #254 of 1236 Old 05-20-2011, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Tim. I will try HVAC talk and see if I can find someone locally. I was able to meet with a "friend of a friend" last night who is a technician for commercial HVAC controllers and sensors. He doesn't do residential HVAC work, but he was happy to look at my project and give me some suggestions.

The first thing he told me was based on the level of complexity of the existing system I have installed combined with the fact that I have a pretty precise plan of what I want, this isn't going to be a 2-3 hour job for someone and my plan of having someone come in to "finish it up" for me probably won't be as cheap as I am thinking. He said I had done a good job with what I have already done and suggested hiring someone to run the numbers and develop a plan and then install it myself to save some money. Depending on the quotes I get, I may go this route.

While he didn't take any measurements of the existing system, he did have some software that calculated air requirements and duct size based on a bunch of parameters. He emphasized that while it is important not to under size the system, it is just as important to not oversize it either. He said if My ducts are too big, they could be loud and the room may feel drafty. He wasn't familiar with home theater equipment, but he has done work with computer rooms and he recognized that even a small amount of equipment can heat up the room fast. He said that as a rule of thumb, you want to exchange the air in a computer room a minimum of 10 times per hour. He wasn't sure that this would be necessary for a theater, but his point was that proper HVAC design would improve the experience in the room.

He asked if it would be possible to put a temperature controlled exhaust fan in the equipment closet. I told him I would need to find out more about it, but I knew that people on AVS have done that. He thought that would help significantly.

He also looked at my plan for running two supply ducts in and looked at the issue with the joists not lining up. I had calculated that I could fit two 10x6 rectangular ducts into the theater to maximize the amount of air flow into the room. He pointed out that a 10x6 duct is not a standard size and I would have to have them made which could be costly. He said that this was the equivalent of an 8.4" round duct and suggested just sticking with an 8" round which is available at most stores. He felt that if I could even exhaust some of the heat from the rack, 2 8" ducts would be fine for the room.

Lastly, he suggested putting linear diffusers in the center of the ceiling to reduce the number of bends/turns in the ducts. He said if I try to run them into the soffits it may restrict the air flow more if I'm not careful. He said if I paint the diffusers to match the ceiling, they won't be "obvious" and will blend in well.

I feel better about the direction I am heading. I need to get someone to confirm my plan by measuring actual air flow of my system and then create a materials list. Hopefully I can get someone out in the next week and order what I need so I can finish this up. I am getting pretty anxious to get past this milestone.


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post #255 of 1236 Old 05-20-2011, 06:18 AM
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Hey Nick! Sorry I'm a little late to this party - I have been out of town, but FWIW, those linear diffusers appear to be the same thing as a slotted bar diffuser, which is exactly what Dennis recommended in my theater. I ended up using a plain ol' register simply due to cost. I talked with my HVAC contractor, and his prices for those slotted bar diffusers were $150-$250 each. Anyway, just a note to say that I'd bet those linear diffusers will fit the bill nicely if that's where you end up...good luck!

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post #256 of 1236 Old 05-20-2011, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I found out earlier today that someone who lives in my neighborhood owns a heating and cooling company. I gave him a call and he offered to stop by tomorrow to take a look and give me a quote for the work I need done. I am curious to see what he has to say. Hopefully he can do it for a reasonable price and I can just get it done.


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post #257 of 1236 Old 05-20-2011, 02:57 PM
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I've had quite of bit of HVAC experience in a previous life in the light commerical market. One (BIG) positive attribute of a linear diffuser is they are generally very quiet relative to a standard register. Customization, cost and lead time not withstanding, "quiet" may be worth the price of admission....
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post #258 of 1236 Old 05-20-2011, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Klindy. I am hearing more and more that the linear diffusers are the way to go. I would hate to skip them to save a few bucks only to have noise coming from the registers. My plan is to go this route. There is a 4 week lead time, so I will order them as soon as I finalize my plan.


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post #259 of 1236 Old 05-20-2011, 03:36 PM
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Your friend-of-a-friend sounds like a very competent individual; any chance he could do the calcs using real numbers? I hear that beer is a good payment for friends-of-friends

You have to look at the NC rating of the diffuser to say what is quiet. The build quality will dictate NC.

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post #260 of 1236 Old 05-20-2011, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Tim, if beer is an acceptable payment, hopefully homebrew is like paying in gold . I was thinking of giving him another call to see if he would be willing to help out. I would even be willing to pay him cash

The diffusers I was thinking of ordering locally are made by Price. Here is the data sheet. I really don't know how to interpret this. I was looking at either 2 slot or 4 slot with 1/2" spacing.



I am going to wait for my neighbor to stop by tomorrow and see what he says. Hopefully he understands what I am trying to accomplish.


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post #261 of 1236 Old 05-21-2011, 04:11 AM
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I'm not familiar with a table having duct pressure on the x-axis. I believe the static pressure is obtained from the blower rating of your air handler.

However, I think you could work it backwards.

Figure the number of CFMs you need for the room; assume 800 CFM total, or 400 CFM per linear.

If you did a 2-slot linear, you'd need each one to be 10 feet long to achieve an NC of 22; if you made them 8 feet long you would have a NC of 28.

I interpolate that the noise level is lower because the duct pressure is lower.

Throw "H" is the horizontal throw min/med/max in feet; 8-12-17. Probably not a big issue in a small room like a theater, other than you don't want your min number to be large or you will feel a breeze. At 8 feet the terminal velocity would be 150 fpm. Throw "V" is the vertical throw at 50 fpm.

Throw relates to what I mentioned earlier about oversizing registers. Picture a garden hose with no nozzle on it. If you wanted to water your front lawn with no nozzle on the hose, it would take forever to water every part of the lawn while you stood in one place; water would pool under the hose and eventually spread out to the entire lawn. If you put a nozzle on the hose, you increase the throw of the nozzle, and a significantly larger portion of the lawn is "comfortable" much faster.


Same thing with a diffuser. Too large and it just drops air below the diffuser and does not distribute it. THe system will run longer as the cool air spreads out and is drawn towards the returns. Too small and it's like sitting under a hair dryer. Just right and the air is distributed evenly without the "windblown" effect.

EDIT: The rule of thumb is the throw at 50fpm should be 1.5x the distance you are trying to cover.

Tim

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post #262 of 1236 Old 05-23-2011, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
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A couple of weekend updates. My neighbor who owns the HVAC company was going to stop by Saturday to take a look at what I was trying to accomplish, but he called and asked if he could reschedule for tonight because he was preparing for a big party at his house on Saturday. No big deal since I didn't even call him until Friday night and he offered to stop by on the weekend. Plus, with the weather being so nice, it gave me a little extra time outside.

I did accomplish a couple of things. I had a gas pipe that was mounted below the joists in the back of the theater. I moved it up into the joists so that it didn't impact my ceiling height. Right now I just have a cap on the end where it connects to the flex hose for the fireplace. The fitting wasn't threading right and I am considering swapping the line rather than taking a chance.



The other thing I did was cut the access for the 2nd HVAC supply line to enter the theater. This was the largest I could make this hole because of where the joist on the other side of the beam lined up on the left side of the hole. I just need to trim up the top edge. Unfortunately, I am guessing I can only fit a 6" supply through the hole. That is another reason I need to have someone look at it that does this type of thing for a living.



One other thing I discovered while cutting the HVAC access hole is that there is a 1/4" gap between the edge of the subfloor above and I could hear lots of sound coming from this area while up on the ladder cutting. I think I am going to caulk this gap before insulating.


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post #263 of 1236 Old 05-23-2011, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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The HVAC contractor came out tonight to take a look at my basement/theater. I explained exactly what I was doing with the theater (sound isolation - DD, insulation, solid core door). The first thing he said was "it is going to get really hot in here with a few people and all of the electronics". That was a good sign! He was telling me how he does a lot of retrofitting computer rooms and gyms when they aren't designed properly. He said that gym owners in particular can't understand why it is so hot in the gym when there are 50 people working out. Needless to say, he didn't think I was crazy and fully understood why I would want to cool the theater in the winter.

He is actually installing a mini split in a theater right now. The owner asked him to find the quietest one available, but he said they hadn't gone to the same extents that I have in design and sound isolation.

The first thing he did was walk around to look at he options for running the supply and return lines. He agreed with the options I was considering (as far as location). He then started measuring lengths, doing some drawing and determining number of elbows, etc. We then talked about using a linear diffuser for each supply line. He also measured the airflow from a couple of basement ducts with all zones running and with only the basement and first floor running. He is going to take all of his measurements back and work up a quote for me. He said either way, he would be glad to provide me the list of materials even if I want to do the work myself. In the end, he said all of the right things and asked the questions I hoped he would ask. If the price is right, I will definitely give him the work. he can finish it in a day and I can move forward. Now I just need to cross my fingers on the price.


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post #264 of 1236 Old 05-24-2011, 04:33 AM
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Glad to hear you found a competent contractor!

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post #265 of 1236 Old 05-24-2011, 04:44 AM
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It might be worth your time to have him do it, all depends on $$ of course, at least you can give him some mutually agreed consultant "fee" if you decide to DIY.

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post #266 of 1236 Old 05-24-2011, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

It might be worth your time to have him do it, all depends on $$ of course, at least you can give him some mutually agreed consultant "fee" if you decide to DIY.

I agree. At a minimum I feel like I owe him something for stopping out. I think with regards to his hourly rate, I will be fine with paying him. I am more worried about how much the markup will be on the materials (ducts, duct board, diffusers, etc). $200 diffusers could sour the deal.


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post #267 of 1236 Old 05-25-2011, 07:02 AM
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Awesome Nick - sounds like you're moving right along!

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post #268 of 1236 Old 05-28-2011, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I am still waiting for the quote from the HVAC contractor (he better hurry, or I am going to start digging in myself to get it done ). Since I had some down time this week, I purchased a copy of iRule to start playing with. I don't have an iPad, but we have a couple of iPod Touches. I was amazed at how simple it is to control a device once you set the system up. I have owned several universal remotes, beginning with the original Philips Pronto up to my current Hamrony. I have also programmed some complex touch screens using CQC, but I have to say that iRule is really impressive for the price ($50).

I also picked up a gateway device to connect it to the equipment in my family room. I now have my LCD tv and bluray player running off of IR, my Pioneer Elite receiver running off of rs232 and my Directv box running off of http. I am truly impressed by this system. I can see me continuing to customize it to run devices throughout the entire house. One of the things I have already started working on is a way to interface to my HAI Omnipro II to control my lighting. The interface doesn't exist for iRule yet, so I am reading through the protocol docs now. So far I am using a simple ascii protocol to send messages to the OmniPro II via serial and triggering commands based on the messages. It is ok, but it doesn't provide any type of feedback as to device status to know if a light is already on or off. You also can't tell where a thermostat is set to know how much to raise or lower the temp. It's a start, but I have a lot of work to do to get it where I want it.

Since it is a long weekend, I am thinking of working on some wiring in the rest of the basement while I wait on the HVAC quote. I also need to add some blocking between the joists in the theater to stiffen them up. I may work on that as well.


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post #269 of 1236 Old 06-02-2011, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought I would give a brief update. I am continuing to wait for my HVAC quote. He originally came out the Monday before Memorial day (a week and a half ago) and said I would have a quote before the weekend. I didn't hear from him, so I left a message on Tuesday. I still haven't heard anything and it is now Thursday, so it looks like I am just going to tackle this myself. I may not be as quick, but I am confident that if I take my time to plan and do the work it will come out exactly the way I want it to.

With that said, I had already cut a hole above the beam where the new duct will enter the theater. I decided to make a sleeve to fit through the hole so I could attach a duct on either side. I cut a piece of duct about 10" long and shrunk both ends so that a duct would fit over the ends. I then flattened it into an oval shape and pushed it through the hole. It was actually much easier than I anticipated.



I also started cutting some of the blocking to reinforce the joists and floor above. Currently, the ceiling joists are 2x12 that are space 12" on center. I have confirmed with the township office that this definitely meets code for the distance of the span. The only issue is that the floor above tends to be a bit "soft" if you run across it. I can even feel the floor shake if I am standing on it when my kids run across it. It's not a lot of shaking, but you can feel it. Between the joists there are currently cross braces that don't seem to add much support.



I decide to add some blocking between the joists to add additional support to the joists and floor above. What I am doing is cutting them a bit tight so that it requires that they are hammered in. I am inserting them until the hit the subfloor above. My plan is to use a 4x4 on a jack to put pressure on them ever so slightly so that they are pre-loaded. I will then drill and screw them with two screws on each side to hold them in place. I have only put about 8 blocks in place without screws - only hammered - and I can already feel a difference when walking upstairs. I think this will make a huge difference and will hopefully prevent the projector from shaking once installed.



I need to finish the blocking and purchase the pieces to finish the duct work. I know I have been talking about it for a long time, but I am finally motivated to move forward. Hopefully I can stay focused with everything else going on right now.


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post #270 of 1236 Old 06-03-2011, 09:03 AM
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That's a great idea with the blocking, actually. On first glance I thought it wouldn't do much but the more I think about it the more I expect it to make the loads share through the joists more effectively.

The floor shakes in a couple rooms in my house also when people walk by, though I can tell you the people are anything but kids! I should do this even though it has absolutely nothing to do with my theatre. At the very least I will add it to my basement finishing project for down the road (possibly VERY down the road, heh heh...). Your pounding / jacking method seems pretty good for ensuring that they definitely support the decking. I'm not 100% sure that is needed for their primary purpose, but then much of the time the icing IS the best part of the cake.
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