My Mahogany / Invisible Speaker build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi -- I'm a newbie here at AVS, but have been lurking and have learned so much from you guys so far. I wanted to share my build that I'm starting and will be also asking some questions as I go along.

Here's what I'm starting with, basically a ~30' x 30' daylight basement with a slab underneath. The column there is a 15" square Mahogany wrapping of two 6x6 structural posts. I'm basically burying that column in the back left corner of the new HT. As you can see, I've started laying out the wall plates just to get a rough idea of how this newly-defined space will feel:



Here's a shot showing the screen wall on the left. I'll need to extend that furring all the way up to the ceiling in order to create a flat surface:



A plan showing the entire basement. Unfortunately there are structural beams and some plumbing coming down 8", currently encased in Mahogany:



And finally a plan of the new room:



I'm going with a Panasonic AE4000U onto a 138" diagonal 2:35 painted screen. The rest of the interior walls will be paneled with a combination of 1/2" and 3/4" Mahogany plywood. For sound, an in-wall transducer-based 9.1 system from Invisible Stereo.

I'm just about to start erecting walls, so if you guys have any feedback or suggestions, I'm all ears.

Thanks!
Bryan
Meadow Vista, CA
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post #2 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 02:06 PM
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I could be completely wrong here.. but I think I have read you need more that 3' of space between the rows.. you may want to search this forum a bit Distance between rows..
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post #3 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 02:31 PM
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Space seems to be pretty square, hard to get good sound in a square space generally speaking and there will be large bass issues especially in the second row.

Mark Jorgensen
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post #4 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjorgensen View Post

Space seems to be pretty square, hard to get good sound in a square space generally speaking and there will be large bass issues especially in the second row.

Yes, it's just about square (18' W x 16' D), but as you can tell, I'm trying to squeeze two rows in while not making it too deep. Anything I can do to fix these potential bass issues short of re-sizing the room? I'm limited on how much deeper I could go but have some flexibility on the width...
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post #5 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's some more detail: Unfortunately I have an exposed (structural) beam and plumbing that runs top-to-bottom along the right side of my room, as viewed from above. I was thinking about dropping the ceiling / building a large soffet around the perimeter of the room, roughly 3' wide and 8" high. I was further thinking I could use that for a lot of bass traps around the room. Would that solve the potential bass problems at the rear of the room?




Yes, it makes headroom a challenge on top of the 12" rear riser, but only for people 6'4" or taller...

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post #6 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 04:35 PM
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I'm not sure I can weigh in on the bass traps. However, I can (moderately confidently) point out that with your rear row that close to the wall you'll have problems with your rear surrounds back there.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've read that you will (ideally) want about 5' between rows to accomodate the recliner and people passing by without falling over each other.

I'll be interested to see how the mahogany works out. Take a look at mcascio's build thread. He's got some very nice renders showing what he's doing to keep a high class feel while still incorporating acoustic treatments on the walls.
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post #7 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTR7 View Post

I'm not sure I can weigh in on the bass traps. However, I can (moderately confidently) point out that with your rear row that close to the wall you'll have problems with your rear surrounds back there.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've read that you will (ideally) want about 5' between rows to accomodate the recliner and people passing by without falling over each other.

I'll be interested to see how the mahogany works out. Take a look at mcascio's build thread. He's got some very nice renders showing what he's doing to keep a high class feel while still incorporating acoustic treatments on the walls.

Thanks for the pointer to mcascio's thread -- great ideas there!

Regarding the other comments (thank you, BTW!), it feels like the general theme is that this space is too small, or that I'm trying to cram too much into it. Is 16' just too shallow for 2 rows of seating? I potentially have more space in the basement, but it's frustrating to have those posts right in the middle of the room....

Does anyone else have a room roughly this size (16' x 18'), and if so, what did you do with it? Definitely interested in ideas.

Bryan
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post #8 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 06:13 PM
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Check out shawnwalters's build. He's got a (relatively) small space. His is similar, a bit longer, than yours and a bit narrower.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1103417

Personally, I think you're trying to fit too much into the space. For one, I think you either have to choose 5.1 (or 7.1 with FH/FW) or 2 rows of seating.
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post #9 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 09:24 PM
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Should be cool.
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post #10 of 388 Old 02-07-2011, 09:38 PM
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Why aren't you rotating it?
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post #11 of 388 Old 02-08-2011, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowger View Post

Yes, it's just about square (18' W x 16' D), but as you can tell, I'm trying to squeeze two rows in while not making it too deep. Anything I can do to fix these potential bass issues short of re-sizing the room? I'm limited on how much deeper I could go but have some flexibility on the width...

Here are some programs that will guide you to the space you should tune for;

http://www.realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

http://www.marktaw.com/recording/Aco...WaveCalcu.html

I don't think that the bass traps will solve the inherant problems with boom you will get, esspecially in the back row. I personally would ditch the row unless you know that there will always be a need for that many seats... just my 2C

Mark Jorgensen
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post #12 of 388 Old 02-08-2011, 06:36 AM
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What are your plans for the rest of the basement? That 25' x 15' part on the right looks ideal, room for two rows and an acoustically transparent screen (false wall).
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post #13 of 388 Old 02-08-2011, 06:44 AM
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Hey cowger,

I like your design, thinking out of the box so to speak.

You are close to that rear wall with your design and yes the rule of thumb says you want at least 1 foot if not 2. Having said that in space my the rear seats have 8" of space from the wall. I use Klipsch speakers and the surrounds are designed with 2 tweeters angled at 45 degrees with the speaker in the center. In my setup I thoroughly enjoy the surrond effects in the back row, a little more so than the front row.

The sound performance was improved greatly after I lined the walls with linacoustic and put bass traps in the screen wall. Also the rear row is a little more enclosed than the front because it's on a riser with a mini riser and because their is a soffited ceiling that comes over the rear row for lighting and the projector bay. Even before the sound treatments the back row space was always less reflective vs the front row space.

I can understand the reason for the design of that back wall (which I really like BTW) and wanting to keep enough space for entry to the space from the stairway. However, if you straighten at least the corners out it may give the chance for the curved section to go a little futher back and get better speaker placement. Are you planning a 7.1 or 5.1 setup? Are you doing in walls?

As far as, if 16' is to shallow, I have 16' of usable space. My room is 18 X 11.5, but I have a curved false wall with speakers behind and I lose 18" at the center and about 24" at the sides. My riser is about 6'1.5" in depth when you consider the lip.

My seating distances are about what you propose in your design, however my screen is only a 120" scrope screen. From the front row I am happy with the view for sports and video games, regular tv watching. The Mrs. prefers the rear row no matter what, but sometimes joins me up front. You mention a 138" screen which is great because of the width that you have but from the distance of the seating I think it will be a little to big.

Consider the option of turning the room as this would grant you the additional 2' in depth and may afford you what you need for a bigger screen.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide.
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post #14 of 388 Old 02-08-2011, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scl23enn4m3 View Post

Why aren't you rotating it?

Good question! I had been trying to come up with something that was wider than it was long, but maybe that's causing too many other problems. Here's a rotated concept with one less seat:


Note that the 45* clipped corners at the top are there to minimize the incursion of the HT into the rest of the basement and to keep it from looking so boxy from the outside. Are those considered good or bad in terms of acoustics?

Thoughts on this?
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post #15 of 388 Old 02-08-2011, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

What are your plans for the rest of the basement? That 25' x 15' part on the right looks ideal, room for two rows and an acoustically transparent screen (false wall).

Another great questions, thanks, Brad. I originally started off (in the DIY screen forum) with a 25' x 15' plan, and was told that it was "not good". Too long vs. width is not good for acoustics, and since I have a Panny AE4000U, it doesn't have enough lumens for a 25' throw.

However, here's a modified version for consideration:
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post #16 of 388 Old 02-08-2011, 06:37 PM
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AT screen?
LL

High Desert Theater - work in progress
Building Bass - Subs

Surrounds - Easy as Pi

Storage - unRAID unDELL

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post #17 of 388 Old 02-08-2011, 06:39 PM
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Sorry for the horrible graphic. I don't have any software on my kitchen computer.





How about using an acoustically transparent screen on the right? You could provide access to the mechanical room from behind the screen.

High Desert Theater - work in progress
Building Bass - Subs

Surrounds - Easy as Pi

Storage - unRAID unDELL

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post #18 of 388 Old 02-11-2011, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi -- sorry for the silence the last few days. I've been busy trying to incorporate feedback and doing lots of CAD drawings to finalize on the design.



Construction of walls will start this weekend and I'll post pics as it progresses. Hoping to have this largely constructed and functional within the next couple weeks. Wish me luck!

Bryan
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post #19 of 388 Old 02-11-2011, 11:30 AM
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I'm going to buck the trend and say I liked your original plan better than any of the revisions.
I'd be curious what the actual performance of the Invisible Stereo transducers is. The fact that they gloss over any mention of frequency response or sensitivity on their web page is pretty suspect to me. Possibly (or probably) because the response would vary based on the wall material they are behind.
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post #20 of 388 Old 02-11-2011, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rader View Post
I'm going to buck the trend and say I liked your original plan better than any of the revisions.
I'd be curious what the actual performance of the Invisible Stereo transducers is. The fact that they gloss over any mention of frequency response or sensitivity on their web page is pretty suspect to me. Possibly (or probably) because the response would vary based on the wall material they are behind.
Thanks for weighing in -- appreciate the support for my old design; at least someone liked it!

Frankly, I share some of your skepticism on the transducers, and didn't get comfortable with the idea until I spoke with some folks with them installed. I'm further assuming that the fact that I'm using solid 1/2" and 3/4" high-quality plywood will help with the response - fingers crossed. I'll certainly let you know how it sounds once the 40 transducers are installed -- hopefully within a week.
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post #21 of 388 Old 02-13-2011, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some shots after construction over the weekend. Took me about half a day to pull out some of the old drywall and furing strips on the concrete stem wall, plus some of the old Mahogany trim, and then most of the weekend to erect the new walls.

Here's the space that I started with, taken from behind the new room, to the right:


And here's the space from outside the right side of the room -- the walls will drop down from that existing beam:


As you can see, I didn't get the 2nd row of wall up along the right side -- ran out of studs after hauling home 110!


The drywall for the screen is up and has its first coat of primer -- size is about 135" x 61", targeting a finished size of 127" x 54". Also started with the paneling along the right - the lower part, below the chair rail, is 3/4" Mahogany; the upper part is 9mm Baltic Birch, which will get laminated with 1/4" Mahogany:


More to come this week...

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post #22 of 388 Old 02-17-2011, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quick update of the work we accomplished yesterday. Paneling is going up, with 3/4" Mahogany below the (eventual) chair rail; the Baltic Birch up top will be covered with a thin veneer of Mahogany. Screen is primed and ready for paint, either later today or tomorrow.





Transducers get screwed to a resin plate which then gets glued and screwed to the back side of the panels. Bigger diameter plates are up top for higher frequencies; smaller plates on the thicker material will be driving more bass.


Bryan
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post #23 of 388 Old 02-17-2011, 08:49 AM
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All looks promising.

Are you doing any work on sound containment - not letting the rest of the house hear every nuance of your movie?

Personally I think I would have moved the back wall to something longer than 19' and used an AT screen - but this is looking good.
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post #24 of 388 Old 02-21-2011, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gareth_alien View Post

All looks promising.

Are you doing any work on sound containment - not letting the rest of the house hear every nuance of your movie?

Yes, all four walls are doubled with a gap in between each row of studs. One of the walls is outside; one faces the crawl space under the house, and these two are facing the rest of the downstairs:

Some insulation is in; I'll fill in the rest of the bays before finishing the paneling.


Here are a couple more shots of the status as of today. Risers are mostly built and functional, including 4 tactile transducers for each level:



And here's looking forward at the finished screen, which now just needs to be framed:
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post #25 of 388 Old 03-23-2011, 02:03 AM
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OK...where's the Beef? This "Woody" has got to be finished by now...right? The Wood Stained....Carpet should be in? The finished Room should be Drop Dead gorgeous.

How about a evaluation of the "Mahogany Sound"? Most people would lament over the difficulty in getting any decent performance in a "all Wood Paneled" room without employing extensive sound treatment, let alone actually using the Wood paneling itself to produce the sound.

Screen shots?

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #26 of 388 Old 03-23-2011, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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MM,

I've been slow to post shots as my progress has slowed... I got the risers completed and carpeted, the chairs moved in, the screen border up, and now we've been doing more watching than building! The three weeks of non-stop rain here in California haven't helped, since I have to carry any wood pieces from my shop outside and then into the house. But I'm going to get back to it soon...

We love the setup and are very pleased with the feel and functionality of the room, despite its unfinished status. The image quality on the screen is, to me anyway, stunning, and the 9.3 surround sound with hidden speakers is epic! For movies that really take advantage of all the channels, it literally puts you into the movie in a way I've never experienced before.

Anyway, here are a few shots. Here's one showing the stair detail with rope lighting underneath:


And some screenshots:






More to come, soon, I hope...
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post #27 of 388 Old 01-24-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
More to come, soon, I hope...

Don't wait until a whole year has passed!

BTW, the Riser treatment w/Rope Lighting looks really exceptional.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #28 of 388 Old 01-24-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, MM. I've been making slow - repeat: s l o w - but steady progress. Walls are all paneled; doors are all done; base moulding and chair rail are done, so next is finishing the soffit and ceiling.

I'm out of town for a bit, but I'll get some pics posted soon...
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post #29 of 388 Old 08-07-2012, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Alrighty. I'm going to try to put the shock paddles to this long-dead thread, update it, and then submit it as a lead contender to the "Worst Updated Thread - Ever!" category. I think I have a shot at the gold medal for that one! smile.gif

So, if anyone is still following this... It's finally done. Well, almost done -- I'm just finishing up making a grill for the HVAC vent. After 18 months of woodworking and trim detail, I finally turned it over to our finisher guy, who did, I think, a masterful job at blending in the various shades of mahogany, which ranged naturally from blonde to a mocha brown. Then he sealed everything with shellac and put a satin poly finish over everything.

And without any further delays, here are some pics:


The space started as a ~30' x 30' bonus room with a mahogany wrap around some structural support elements. I extended the wall down from that and created the outside of the HT:
1-outsidewall.jpg


A shot from the front right corner, looking back:
2-fromcorner.jpg


The starfield is from FOSI and, IMO, turned out great!
3-starfield.jpg


Rope lighting under the steps and the lower level:
4-lookingup.jpg


Some detail showing the base molding and chair railing:
5-detail.jpg



All-in-all, I doubt I would have set off down the path of an all-wood HT had I realized how much work this was going to be. However, now that it's done, I'm glad I did it -- once -- and we're so pleased with the end result. It's not huge, but we like the cozy and sort of old-timey feel down there, and it hopefully shows what one can do with an 8' space that wasn't originally intended to be a dedicated theater.

Enjoy, and thank you to everyone who has helped me along the way, especially Mississippi Man for his sound system and awesome painted screen, Mario for his early renderings showing columns and other details that I leveraged, and RedTopDown for inspiration and help on the ceiling and LED crown lighting.

Bryan
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post #30 of 388 Old 08-07-2012, 03:07 PM
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Beautiful room! I love the mahogany woodwork. Congratulations!

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