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post #31 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 12:02 PM
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Brad you are correct. In the 2011 tests, BOTH products tested at STC53, with QuietGlue Pro showing better transmission loss in some lower frequency bands as well as the critical coincidence dip area around 2Khz.


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Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

Kevin, Thank you for taking your time to reply.

As mentioned I was taking the opprotunity to learn, and test my understanding of the data. It appears that I am missing details.


Brad

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post #32 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 12:58 PM
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I have a headache.
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post #33 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 01:07 PM
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Me too, Tom.

I wish I could let this slide, however despite specific comments to the contrary, all of the tests panels were methodically walked on. This was significant enough of an issue to the lab that it was specifically detailed in the formal lab test reports.

Test OL10-0839. Test conducted August 30, 2010 Page 6:

“PANEL SANDWICH PREPARATION

Serious Materials QuietGlue Pro damping adhesive was pre-laminated into sandwiches between two 5/8” type X gypsum board panels. QuietGlue Pro was applied in a random pattern from two entire 28oz. adhesive cartridges over one whole gypsum board panel. A second sheet of 5/8” type X gypsum board was thoroughly compressed by methodically walking over the entire face of the panel sandwich.”

Regarding film thickness relative to damping, I stand by my previous posts. A large ball of damping material in the center of the board isn’t being sheared well. Shear = friction = energy conversion. Less shear = less friction = less energy conversion.

Regarding compressibility, I would again urge anyone interested to get some scrap drywall, some screws and a stud wall and TEST IT THEMSELVES. A material that is 2-3 times thicker will not compress as readily or completely.

Lastly no one is paying nearly a buck a screw for normal commercial drywall installation. Again, I suggest anyone interested to first of all ask yourselves if this is logical, and then feel free to ask actual drywall contractors on the forums previously listed. Obviously super-expensive labor helps justify the cost of commercial pre-damped panels.

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post #34 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 01:23 PM
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Walking: I stand corrected. The contractor walked on all panels (Green Glue and Quiet Glue) in 2008 and 2010 tests at Orfield, but not in 2011. He was never instructed to do so. Though it makes no difference.

Film thickness...as I stated: In an extreme case where you clumped it all in one place, the math breaks because you no longer have separation at the edges.
Otherwise the model does not even have a variable for coverage because it doesn't matter. Assuming you maintain general separation of the leaves, the math works. That occurs around 25% to 35% coverage btw in drywall provided it is randomly distributed.

We are down in the noise here.

Bottom line, there is competition now for a product which you helped bring to market. We have a world-class engineering and acoustics team, have done testing for years, we have made, shipped and installed this product for many years and 100's of thousands of panels. Now the public can get it at a much lower cost than other damping glues. That is good news. Your arguments are truly in the noise at this point...no pun intended.
Even if we did recommend walking on panels (we don't), many people would choose to walk on them to save 30%.

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post #35 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 02:00 PM
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post #36 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 02:09 PM
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I have seen no 2011 test reports, and contractors don't routinely walk "methodically" all over drywall, so why would they in a lab?

I think I'll not go tit for tat with this further. Suffices to say that you have done a nice job with the development of this new damping formulation. I know it has been a long frustrating haul. I again congratulate you.

I do not agree with the armchair logic, as I've stated.

I do not agree with the cost information presented, as I've stated.

I would caution people to consider the significant risks, verify the costs and make their decision. You only have one shot at this.

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post #37 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 02:15 PM
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Hmmmm, Kevin has been a memeber since 2005 and has 38 posts, Ted has been a member for 12 years with 6760 post...

I know speaking from my own experience...Customer service has a lot to do with a purchase in this case....and I know I have seen Ted give advice to many many people.

Im sure if GG didn't do its job....and effectively...he might not still be here offering support.

Ill go with the experience myself.

Sorry the new kid on the block has some reputation to build before I spend that much money on a new product.
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post #38 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 03:26 PM
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Yep. Ted is a huge poster, I am not. Don't have the time. Wish I did. Sorry. But we have a large support team that takes upwards of 700 calls a week supporting customers in their needs for our products. And some of the top Phd and MS acousticians in the country. Maybe people should buy products based on the company reputation, technology, performance and price. Maybe not on how many posts someone has on a forum.
By the way...our damping glue wasn't a long frustrating haul. New formulations were done years ago for our panel products. This isn't rocket science.

Nevertheless, Ted has great advice and his advice should create sales for his dealership and I respect the time he has taken on these forums as an active member.

We will post the final 2011 tests as soon as the lab completes the paperwork. Probably next week. But we already published the TL's in the white paper, and those won't change.

Lastly, Ted, encourage your friends at Green Glue to publish more recent tests than 6 years ago. Why have they not done that? And very happy to go head to head again in back to back lab tests anytime. You pay this time
We have done that for 3 years...but have yet to see a back-to-back test cycle from Green Glue with QuietGlue Pro...though knowing Brian, I am pretty sure it was done. Why not share the results? And please don't walk on our panels.

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post #39 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 03:54 PM
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Kevin I think the consumer always benefits from competition in the marketplace, and your price for a 5 gallon bucket is very competitive. But, the shelf price for a tube of Quiet Seal is over $20 a tube at Lowe's.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_100889-89477...&storeId=10151

When I heard they were carrying your product I looked it up on their web site and I actually thought the price was for a box of 4 tubes. I went to the store and did locate the product on the shelf but left shaking my head in disbelief. What makes your product worth 3-4 times the price of other acoustical sealants on the market?
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post #40 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 05:59 PM
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I would comment to the group at large that despite the tone of some of todays discussions, Quiet Solutions has one of the best comprehensive lab test portfolios out there. Certainly more than any other damped drywall source. Over the years I've found their panel tests to be exactly as presented.

In truth I wish other segments of this market would have this same testing foundation. It's really a fundamental thing. There are a lot of channel, vinyl, sound board and exotic insulation suppliers with little or no data.

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post #41 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 06:25 PM
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Thx Ted. Very good point.
We have tested mass loaded vinyl as has Green Glue.
Basically it does almost nothing.
STC43 versus STC40. About what one would expect.
Very expensive for no real gain.
Yet people use tons of it without the MLV people posting real verified tests of many wall assemblies.
Instead they post the MLV alone at like STC27 and suggest you can add STC values up (you can't).
Green Glue did a bevy of tests all at an independent lab (same one we have used extensively).
You buy either GG or QG Pro or QuietRock and you will get a product that works as advertised and is heavily tested.
You buy almost anything else and there is almost no testing...or truly no testing. MLV is the obvious example I can think of.
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post #42 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 08:51 PM
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At this point there have been any number of quality theater builds documented using GreenGlue. Perhaps what might be best to settle this once and for all, is if Kevin donated a supply of QuietGlue to an AVS member in the upper Midwest Twin Cities area to build a theater with. That process could be documented and discussed, differences noted and analyzed. And I guess, I could take one for the team and build such a theater.

Also, if anyone from Berkline is reading this, I heard someone may make a better chair.

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post #43 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 02:28 AM
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Nice try. Won't work. You'd have to build TWO identical rooms each using a different method/product and, in the end, the conditions still wouldn't be as identical as could be produced in a lab. But, heck, if you don't at least try for the brass ring, you'll never get there.

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post #44 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 04:04 AM
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You can come in and "test" your product on my Theater =) I promiss to run "field" tests mutiple times a week and every football Thrusday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday =)
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post #45 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 09:49 AM
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Hello everyone!

My name is Ben Shafer, Acoustician at Serious Materials, Inc. (manufacturers of QuietGlue/QuietRock/QuietCoat/SeriousWindows/SeriousEnergy).

A little background:

I have been fascinated with the physics of sound and with music since before I can remember. Because I love mathematics so much, I decided to go the Physics route in college.

I have a BS in Applied Physics (Acoustics emphasis and minor in music) and an MS in Physics as well. My graduate work was primarily focused on small axial fan noise source radiation modeling and reduction. However, architectural acoustics and structural noise and vibration always fascinated me.

Since my graduate studies I have dedicated all of my professional time to conduct research regarding the transmission of sound through wall and floor/ceiling partitions.

Although my research interests currently extend beyond just QuietGlue PRO I would love to participate in these types of posts.

Mind, though, that I am not participating to spin or state my opinion. I just want to post and discuss transmission loss research data, simply because it fascinates me.

Someone mentioned field testing earlier. Although field tests certainly do have a much larger variance and potential for sound leakage and flanking than laboratory tests do--by the way, don't assume that there is no sound flanking in labs either, as I we have done cross-laboratory studies and research that shows that even laboratory tests can vary quite a lot for the same exact assembly--they can be used to do comparisons if you test the same wall partition frame in rooms of relatively equal volume.

I'd love to work with someone to do some field test comparisons. Data makes me happy

Have a fantastic day everyone and nice to "meet" you all!
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post #46 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Shafer View Post

Hello everyone!

My name is Ben Shafer, Acoustician at Serious Materials, Inc. (manufacturers of QuietGlue/QuietRock/QuietCoat/SeriousWindows/SeriousEnergy).

A little background:

I have been fascinated with the physics of sound and with music since before I can remember. Because I love mathematics so much, I decided to go the Physics route in college.

I have a BS in Applied Physics (Acoustics emphasis and minor in music) and an MS in Physics as well. My graduate work was primarily focused on small axial fan noise source radiation modeling and reduction. However, architectural acoustics and structural noise and vibration always fascinated me.

Since my graduate studies I have dedicated all of my professional time to conduct research regarding the transmission of sound through wall and floor/ceiling partitions.

Although my research interests currently extend beyond just QuietGlue PRO I would love to participate in these types of posts.

Mind, though, that I am not participating to spin or state my opinion. I just want to post and discuss transmission loss research data, simply because it fascinates me.

Someone mentioned field testing earlier. Although field tests certainly do have a much larger variance and potential for sound leakage and flanking than laboratory tests do--by the way, don't assume that there is no sound flanking in labs either, as I we have done cross-laboratory studies and research that shows that even laboratory tests can vary quite a lot for the same exact assembly--they can be used to do comparisons if you test the same wall partition frame in rooms of relatively equal volume.

I'd love to work with someone to do some field test comparisons. Data makes me happy

Have a fantastic day everyone and nice to "meet" you all!

Forgot to mention, I completed an field (for internal research) test of a movie theater in Illinois. Movie theaters might be good types of projects to do field TL comparisons with because the rooms are all the same volume and there is sometimes relatively good isolation at doorways and adjacent partitions. Dennis, does your firm do any ASTM E336 field testing? I'd love to combine efforts to get some field data.
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post #47 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 10:09 AM
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Now it might just be me, but I don't think I have ever seen Ben and Kevin in the same room at the same time. Hmmmmm...

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post #48 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

Now it might just be me, but I don't think I have ever seen Ben and Kevin in the same room at the same time. Hmmmmm...

I just barely joined the AVS forum so I'm not quite sure what that means. Please expound. Thanks!
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post #49 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 10:45 AM
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I have an idea... How about we install both products in my theater, split one wall down the center and one product on half the other on the other half... You donate the materials and you'll be able to install permanent non-invasive testing sensors inside the walls.... It’s a win win =)
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post #50 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Shafer View Post

I just barely joined the AVS forum so I'm not quite sure what that means. Please expound. Thanks!

I think he is suggesting you are a sock puppet, and Kevin's hand is making your mouth move, err fingers type.

I think its a bit much, you disclosed that you and Kevin work at the same place (or business partners at least), its not necessary to launch any speculative attack.

I am a past user of GG and some one who got his education on the topic from Ted and previously Brian. At AVS we have all benefitted from their efforts to bring rigor and knowledge to this forum. I think you folks would have a gap to fill in customer service to earn my future $.

I will note I have some skepticism towards quiet rock since in the past you folks came in and claimed QG was equal to GG in performance (I call pull the threads), and now we have you coming in and the pitch is QG Pro is the real deal, and its the product that gives us GG performance, now that it has been released to customers.
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post #51 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 12:04 PM
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Quote:


Now it might just be me, but I don't think I have ever seen Ben and Kevin in the same room at the same time. Hmmmmm...

Geezy-peezy. Come on, it's a JOKE. You know, Superman/Clark Kent? Spiderman/Peter Parker? Batman/Bruce Wayne? They're actually the SAME person, he didn't mean a sock puppet.

Ben - don't take offense. You gotta have a sense of humor around here.

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post #52 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 12:10 PM
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Thanks Dave! I appreciate the clarification.

My intention is merely to participate in this forum with industry colleagues such as yourself and serve as a useful resource. As indicated in my introductory post, I did not join the forum to earn anyone's future dollars, only to post and discuss research in the field of acoustics and noise control. My sentiments are equal to yours, in that we can all benefit from research and development in this area. I look forward to open collaboration with the community!
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post #53 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 12:12 PM
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Thanks Tom.

Will do...or I guess will not
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post #54 of 59 Old 03-25-2011, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Surace View Post

Yep. Ted is a huge poster, I am not. Don't have the time. Wish I did. Sorry. But we have a large support team that takes upwards of 700 calls a week supporting customers in their needs for our products.

Nevertheless, Ted has great advice and his advice should create sales for his dealership and I respect the time he has taken on these forums as an active member.

Kevin

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

I am a past user of GG and some one who got his education on the topic from Ted and previously Brian. At AVS we have all benefitted from their efforts to bring rigor and knowledge to this forum. I think you folks would have a gap to fill in customer service to earn my future $.

I will note I have some skepticism towards quiet rock since in the past you folks came in and claimed QG was equal to GG in performance (I call pull the threads), and now we have you coming in and the pitch is QG Pro is the real deal, and its the product that gives us GG performance, now that it has been released to customers.

Well said DC Pilgrim. I appreciate all the help, support, and info I have received on this forum. Any company can have a 1-800 number. Personally I dislike talking on the phone and am glad that I've never had a job that required me to do so.
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post #55 of 59 Old 03-26-2011, 06:12 AM
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Quote:


Dennis, does your firm do any ASTM E336 field testing

Yes, under three specific circumstances:
1. The client pays for it.
2. We have a performance guarantee (in which case we must do the construction)
3. The room will be subject to certification as a THX Screening Room.

We are currently preparing to manufacture (in house) our own sound attenuation doors so that means testing ... but by Orfield or Riverbank.

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post #56 of 59 Old 04-05-2011, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post
In the field we are not walking on panels to compress the damping compound. We don’t have heavy bladder presses. We have little drywall screws holding a paper-wrapped product (drywall), and not all that many of them.

In 2005 we assembled walls, securing with screws to studs, then removed the screws to view glue compression.

OR

I wish I could let this slide, however despite specific comments to the contrary, all of the tests panels were methodically walked on. This was significant enough of an issue to the lab that it was specifically detailed in the formal lab test reports.
Just wanted to clearly explain the truth about panel compression and laboratory test results.

I did a little reading through the Orfield Laboratory test reports listed on The Soundproofing Company website for Green Glue and there are three different tests (OL06-0942, OL06-0920, OL07-0530b) completed by the Green Glue Company where it specifically states in the panel description that "the sandwich was thoroughly compressed by methodically walking over the entire face."

So, the question is: Do CLD sandwich panels made with QuietGlue Pro or Green Glue have to be methodically walked on to achieve the desired performance???

Here's the great news: NO!
Yay, no one has to walk on a CLD panel to make it work properly!

Our recent series of 2011 tests was designed so that we could make a fair comparison:

2011 QuietGlue Pro, http://www.quietrock.com/documentati...startdown/369/
2011 Green Glue, http://www.quietrock.com/documentati...startdown/368/

Once again, the QuietGlue Pro performed the same as or better than the Green Glue (same as for 2008 and 2010 comparisons) and there was no significant change in performance between the walked-on and not-walked-on panels.

 

2011QuietGlueProTestedatSTC53.pdf 297.8076171875k . file

 

2011GreenGlueTes+NumberO11-0307.pdf 303.287109375k . file
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post #57 of 59 Old 07-29-2013, 01:19 PM
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Sorry for the necro bump here, but I am finally getting around to putting in a wall to divide a room and I want to sound proof it.

Given that this is a new wall, I can do it anyway I want, but due to the size constraints, I'd like to keep it as thin as possible while still limiting sound transmission (the holy grail I suspect!). Cost is also a concern, but given that the wall is only going to be 12.5' long by 8' high, I don't think any of the options will end up costing that much more than the others.

So, given a choice between using QuietGlue (or GreenGlue) between two pieces of drywall or using a layer of QuietRock, which would be better for reducing sound transmission?
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post #58 of 59 Old 07-29-2013, 03:45 PM
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the extra mass of a double layer of damped drywall is better over a thinner single layer of damped drywall. But that aside good luck with achieving your soundproofing goal by treating only the partition wall. Flanking sound may be your undoing.
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post #59 of 59 Old 07-29-2013, 04:34 PM
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Thanks. The side walls are already fairly well insulated for sound. We live in a condo that was built in '07. I forget exactly what the builder told us, but I do know that they are doublewalled and double drywalled. We really don't hear anything coming through those walls (the ceiling is another matter).

Really I don't need to make it completely quiet. To give you an idea of what I am doing: The room is roughly 12.5' by 28'. Right now it is used almost exclusively as the room for my 2 year old daughter. She doesn't need that much space! So what I want to do is split the front half off into an office for me. I already have a desk built in there, but had to give it up when she started sleeping down there last year. She doesn't get bothered by voices or even relatively large amounts of noise (our neighbors above had a huge party a few months ago and she barely stirred). However, when I had my desk just outside the room in the hallway, if I dropped something or coughed (and with allergies, that happens a lot), she'd stir.

So basically I need to make a partition there that will at least muffle those kinds of sounds and normal office sounds (opening drawers and rummaging around in them, typing, etc.). I'll use headphones when I'm playing a game on the computer and I can use them for TV as well (though I doubt I'll watch much down there).
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