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post #1 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone used this product? If so, what do you think. I'm gonna be rocking my entire basement and new addition and I want to pretty much sound proof as much as I can. I live right next to a guy who owns a truck service and the added sound proofing I thought would be a good idea. Considering the LARGE amount of either Green Glue or QuietGlue I will be using...I'm leaning towards QuietGlue because it will be considerably less money. QuietGlue and GreenGlue have both received very good reviews...but I'm a real world guy and reviews are so easily fabricated.
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post #2 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainsaw12117 View Post

using...I'm leaning towards QuietGlue because it will be considerably less money.

Not so at all.

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post #3 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Not so at all.

89.00 a case compared to 150.00 a case is a pretty big difference. EVERY penny I can save is worth it. We are closing in on 100k for the entire job.
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post #4 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 12:40 PM
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Your numbers are not correct, Green Glue sells for less around here...

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post #5 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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In NY GG sells for 150-179 a case...QuietGlue sells for 89-119 a case. Even on EBay GG sells for a lot more than QuietGlue. Is there a better dealer in NY that I'm missing.
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post #6 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 12:46 PM
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You might consider getting a quote from someone else.

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post #7 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

You might consider getting a quote from someone else.

Bottom line...I will NEVER be able to buy GG for 89.00 a case. So I'm really looking for someone that has actually used it. I'm more or less looking for feedback. I already know GG works well, I'm trying to see if something 50-60 dollars cheaper a case works as well.
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post #8 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 12:57 PM
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I'm appearing arguementative, but your local Green Glue source is very expensive.

The damping material for an average theater is better purchased in 5 gallon pails for speed and cost efficiency.

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post #9 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

I'm appearing arguementative, but your local Green Glue source is very expensive.

The damping material for an average theater is better purchased in 5 gallon pails for speed and cost efficiency.

I'm probably gonna use the 5 gallon...seeings how it's gonna probably be around 3,000 sq ft. I appreciate your input and everything you know about soundproofing...you are WELL respected by me...
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post #10 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 01:01 PM
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Pails are generally 12% less than cases, depending on where you're shopping.

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post #11 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Pails are generally 12% less than cases, depending on where you're shopping.

Thanks for the info, it's greatly appreciated
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post #12 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 01:11 PM
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Other potential factors to consider:

How long has a product been around? What is the performance years later?

How easy (or not) is it to apply?

How likely is a field installation going to mirror lab data?

How much help / experience is the retailer able to offer?

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post #13 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 01:16 PM
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This is my favorite thread of all time!
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post #14 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 01:17 PM
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I've tried to clue in the OP via PM...I HOPE they're talking about it now.

But you know, NOBODY listens to me.

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If you can get the quiet glue for $89 a case that is roughly .40 a square foot. I purchased my green glue for .55 a square foot - (I purchased the 5 gal buckets.

I could be wrong but I think there have been independent tests done where green glue outperformed quiet glue.

Its a lot of money to spend either way, I would probably go with the product that is tried and true than spend all that time and effort on something that might not live up to your expectations.
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post #16 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 01:23 PM
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I PM the OP as well...the light is now on.
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post #17 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 01:34 PM
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but is anybody home?

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post #18 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 02:12 PM
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Hi Chainsaw - I have appreciated your input in my thread so I just thought I'd chime in here with my impressions so far. Ted helped me out with all of the soundproofing-related stuff for my HT and I have been very pleased.

Ted offers: excellent products, excellent prices, and even better service/knowledge. Ted has been incredibly helpful throughout my build. He has done way more than necessary to help me, even with things unrelated to soundproofing. a.k.a. I think he's great and highly recommend his company.

The Esquire Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1289590
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post #19 of 59 Old 03-23-2011, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBenji View Post

Hi Chainsaw - I have appreciated your input in my thread so I just thought I'd chime in here with my impressions so far. Ted helped me out with all of the soundproofing-related stuff for my HT and I have been very pleased.

Ted offers: excellent products, excellent prices, and even better service/knowledge. Ted has been incredibly helpful throughout my build. He has done way more than necessary to help me, even with things unrelated to soundproofing. a.k.a. I think he's great and highly recommend his company.

I'll second this since Ted probably can't by forum rules. I've talked and emailed extensively with Ted and John. They charge a fair price for everything, and it's a steal when you account for their guidance and support. They were available by telephone during my GG installation (by the contractors) to answer questions multiple times.

By the way Ted, I'll post my dead vent pic's when I get some time to upload them to the site. Your incarnation turned out well for my application.
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post #20 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 12:57 AM
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I rarely chime in on these forums...so first of all, sorry for showing up infrequently. At least I stated the obvious upfront. But I do read them often. So I do feel compelled to get our thoughts out at least once.

QuietGlue Pro is based on core product technology used in QuietRock. Over 2 million panels installed since 2003.
It is cheaper than Green Glue anywhere in the country that we have seen, generally by about 30%. And performs as well or better in back to back tests for 3 years. Including 30+ day cure times as recommended by Green Glue.
Not meant to start any arguments here. These are just the facts as they stand today. And not sure anyone here has said otherwise.
Both products are very good products. And Green Glue has been a leader in the damping glue space for many years. We respect their product...but it is not some kind of mysterious miracle. It is a polymer with certain physical characteristics that make it useful for damping walls. It is possible, believe it or not, to create other formulations that outperform it. It is science...not black magic.

Most importantly, consumer choice is a very good thing, and for years you have not had a competitive choice.

Now you do.

Here are some technical documents which provide much more detail:

There is a rebuttal to a document that Green Glue wrote here.

And a more comprehensive White paper here.

Also I uploaded the pdf's here for your convenience.

I know a lot of people love Green Glue and many people, including dealers and its creators, defend Green Glue in this forum regularly.

We are simply and humbly providing an additional choice for consumers.

You should still make your purchasing decisions based on many factors. Price, performance, service, trust etc.
You wouldn't want only one maker of projectors or screens for instance. That would not push the technology forward. And without competition you would likely be overcharged.

Nor do you want one maker of damping glue.

So now there are two.

It seems to me this is a better balance than before. And a win for everyone here. But alas...you decide.

Kevin Surace
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greenGlue-vs-quiet-glue-proRebuttal030911.pdf 105.435546875k . file

 

QuietGlueProWhitePaper03-11-Final-1.pdf 275.4423828125k . file
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post #21 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 07:23 AM
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I haven't used Quiet glue, but I can tell you from very recent ordering the price difference is almost 0.
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post #22 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I would like to thank everyone for the information. I had to make an emergency exit yesterday and sit in the ER for about 6 hours....for pretty much NO reason. I respect and appreciate EVERYONE'S input and opinions on these forums.
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post #23 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 08:05 AM
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My observations from the QuietGlue white paper revolves around this:

Quote:
For example, if labor costs $0.53/sqft to hang one layer of drywall and it takes at least three times longer to apply the glue, an estimate of the labor cost for gluing and installing two layers of drywall is $2.50/sqft, or $80 for a 4x8 foot panel area. Including cost of materials—two tubes of Green Glue ($14/tube) plus two sheets of 5/8” Type X drywall ($10/sheet)—the total cost would be $128 per 32 sqft of surface area (i.e. a 4x8 panel). Depending on the QuietRock model, the total installed cost can be about half the cost of gluing for high-volume commercial applications, three times faster, and the assembly would be UL listed for fire resistance

In particular...

" Type X drywall ($10/sheet)."
I can find 4x8 5/8s Type X drywall AT RETAIL for closer to $7.00.

AND

" Depending on the QuietRock model, the total installed cost can be about half the cost of gluing"
Wait a minute....I thought we were talking about their QuietGlue Pro glue , NOT the pre-made QuietRock panels.

AND

"and it takes at least three times longer to apply the glue,"
From my observations of the crew that hung my drywall and Green Glue, I cannot POSSIBLY see how it took them 3 times longer to install. MAYBE twice because they did two layers, but NO WAY was it three times longer.

I had a crew of 5 to hang 130 sheets, delivered in two piles in about the middle of the room. There were two crews of two measuring, cutting and hanging at opposite ends of the room and the fifth, the crew leader, in the middle applying Green Glue between the piles keeping up with the guys hanging. It took 10 hours and that includes the cleanup after they were done.

I have to say that the illustrated instructions from Ted were invaluable for the install. This just goes to service support. Are there enough dealers to provide that same level of suport?

And just to go off a little tangent, this reminds of a story in a book I read about the history of Coca Cola. In it ,the author claims that while doing research in the Atlanta office's archives, he came across a faded piece of paper stuck inside and old book and it contained the actual formula for Coke. While interviewing one of the big wigs, he mentioned that he had found this, and showed it to the big wig. The big wig's reply was along the lines of "Even IF that is the formula, what would you do with it? You would have a drink that tastes just like Coke, but would have to spend a fortune advertising it, you would have to convince people that it is the same as Coke, build up a distribution network, etc, etc ,etc"

It appears to me that Quiet Glue is trying to play catch up here. Maybe their product IS as good or slightly better. From what I see in the test results, the performance differences are negligible for the home market. And the white paper seems to be jumping back and forth between comparisons of the DIY market and the commercial market when it is convenient.

MY advice? Do your research and cost comparisons by getting actual costs form reputable dealers. Then evaluate the service you can expect after the sale.

Tom Logan
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post #24 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 08:44 AM
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Price: When looking at any purchase of any material, please make sure you are comparing street prices not the sometimes meaningless list prices.

Performance: We know of aging studies done on a European damping compound whose performance dropped after only 90 days. Clearly long term performance can vary and only time will tell of a brand new formulation performs well over time. 1 STC point is statistically meaningless and inaudible.

Installation: In the field, please keep in mind that we’re relying on a few simple drywall screws to deliver the relatively small compressive force necessary to squeeze the damping compound to a requisite thin film. I have a concern when a damping compound is roughly 2-3 times thicker than others.

Comparing: You can’t hold up a can of brand new Glue X and point to data based on a factory assembled product using older Glue Y.

Sundry fun facts: Any simple survey of Drywall contractors will tell you that labor rates to hang commercial drywall is $0.15 to $0.25 a square foot. Those prices haven’t moved up in 2-3 years and in many markets have gone down Also, don’t forget that there is a drywall industry standard 12% waste factor. Be careful of the cost of the material you’re filling a dumpster with. Some direct contact with drywall professionals in North America:

www.drywalltalk.com

www.contractortalk.com

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post #25 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 10:09 AM
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I wouldnt mind taking this opprotunity to learn something and test my understanding of the subject at hand. Please let me know if I have made mistakes in the application of the specific standards


A piece of information missing from the White paper is the standard used to evaluate the TL loss and arrive at the STC ratings supporting the claims in the white paper.

I would like to understand the intrepretation of the data from OLO8-1102 and OL08-1103 and the findings that Quiet Glue has a higher STC rating.

Since there is not an apparant reason to question the Raw data from Orfield labs as presented in the white paper I ran the calculations based on the raw data and my understanding of the criteria from ASTM E413 ( typically the most common spec used for domestic products)

If I apply the contour adjustments from ASTM E413 for the frequencies from 125hz-4000khz in 1/3 octave bands and use the criteria that no period may have a deficiency greater than 8db, and the total deficiencies must be less than 32db. Then both QuietGlue and GreenGlue meet an acceptance criteria for an STC rating of 54, based on the 2008 data.

This contradicts the "Comparison of Dampening Glues" Chart on page 3 of the White paper.

And Neither meet an STC of 54, (both meet an STC of 53) Based on the 2010 data.

(intersting that the performance of both products tested lower in the 2010 tests)

This would suggest that the claims in the white paper are based on a different standard such as ISO 717. However since the defeciencies for the Quiet glue are greater in both the 100 and 3150 periods this would not support the claims for greater STC values based on the ISO standards either. Leaving the question of what standard was used to intrepret the data. "A" weighted spectrum?

Based on the raw data from Orfields and applying the standards for evaluation to arrive at an STC rating it would appear that both products have substantially equal performance based on industry accepted procedures.

I would be interested to see if anyone else agrees with my understanding/calculations/intrepetation of the data or if I made a mistake somewhere. (common occurrance)

Brad

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post #26 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 10:40 AM
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Price: A simple web search right now finds street prices of $149 for Green Glue and $107-$115 for Quiet Glue Pro. Volume discounting below these numbers occurs on both products as well.

Performance: We have used QuietGlue Pro in factory made panels for many years. 100's of thousands of panels installed in the field and performance has not changed over those years. It is only a new offering direct to consumers.

Installation: A thin film is not requisite for performance. That is simply not how the physics works. The correct spread is always achieved by the same number of screws as Green Glue recommends...and you can see that in the lab tests.

Comparing: It isn't new. We show tests from 2008-2011. Just new for consumers.

Sundry Facts: We reference RSMeans which surveys 1000's of actual projects for actual costs. There are regions at 25 cents/sqft and others at $1.50/sqft in the 2011 book, which just issued. Average nationwide was 53 cents/sqft. Smaller jobs can be more expensive.

The white paper helps to answer the questions "when should I use QuietRock or QuietGlue?" Bottom line which you all already know...when labor cost is low, glue rocks. When labor cost is high, QuietRock may be a lower cost method. Given 2 million installed panels...I suspect that must hold true. And in any case, Saint Gobain makes Green Glue as well as factory damped panels...so they must agree.

Competition is a good thing. Ted, maybe you would like to stock QuietGlue Pro and give your customers a choice as well?

Kevin




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Price: When looking at any purchase of any material, please make sure you are comparing street prices not the sometimes meaningless list prices.

Performance: We know of aging studies done on a European damping compound whose performance dropped after only 90 days. Clearly long term performance can vary and only time will tell of a brand new formulation performs well over time. 1 STC point is statistically meaningless and inaudible.

Installation: In the field, please keep in mind that we’re relying on a few simple drywall screws to deliver the relatively small compressive force necessary to squeeze the damping compound to a requisite thin film. I have a concern when a damping compound is roughly 2-3 times thicker than others.

Comparing: You can’t hold up a can of brand new Glue X and point to data based on a factory assembled product using older Glue Y.

Sundry fun facts: Any simple survey of Drywall contractors will tell you that labor rates to hang commercial drywall is $0.15 to $0.25 a square foot. Those prices haven’t moved up in 2-3 years and in many markets have gone down Also, don’t forget that there is a drywall industry standard 12% waste factor. Be careful of the cost of the material you’re filling a dumpster with. Some direct contact with drywall professionals in North America:

www.drywalltalk.com

www.contractortalk.com

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post #27 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 10:52 AM
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The standard used is ASTM E90 and ASTM E413. We are not strictly concerned with the STC number as much as the TL data. OL08-1103 shows Green Glue at STC 53 with 20 deficiencies. Trying to fit the STC 54 curve pushes it just over 32 deficiencies. So it doesn't score a 54.
But none of this really matters. Further tests in 2010 and 2011 show the STC the same as QuietGlue Pro.
What does matter, and we point out in the white paper, is the better performance of QuietGlue Pro, in 3 years of testing, at lower frequencies as well as the coincidence dip (around 2khz). QuietGlue Pro outperforms Green Glue by a few dB in test after test. Will you hear that difference? Probably not much. But it puts to rest whether or not there is an alternative to Green Glue that performs at least as well. Doesn't matter what year or how long they dried for, QuietGlue Pro performs as well or better (on a TL basis) than Green Glue.

Nevertheless both a great products with years of production experience. You just get an additional quality choice.

Kevin





Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post


A piece of information missing from the White paper is the standard used to evaluate the TL loss and arrive at the STC ratings supporting the claims in the white paper.

I would like to understand the intrepretation of the data from OLO8-1102 and OL08-1103 and the findings that Quiet Glue has a higher STC rating.

Since there is not an apparant reason to question the Raw data from Orfield labs as presented in the white paper I ran the calculations based on the raw data and my understanding of the criteria from ASTM E413 ( typically the most common spec used for domestic products)

If I apply the contour adjustments from ASTM E413 for the frequencies from 125hz-4000khz in 1/3 octave bands and use the criteria that no period may have a deficiency greater than 8db, and the total deficiencies must be less than 32db. Then both QuietGlue and GreenGlue meet an acceptance criteria for an STC rating of 54, based on the 2008 data.

This contradicts the "Comparison of Dampening Glues" Chart on page 3 of the White paper.

And Neither meet an STC of 54, (both meet an STC of 53) Based on the 2010 data.


Brad

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post #28 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 11:38 AM
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I applaud Quiet Solutions for working diligently all these years to produce a material that tests as high as Green Glue. That was no easy task. Clearly under lab conditions and the ability to compress the panels via artificial means both materials perform similarly. Not sure about 3 months from now as I’ve seen no data on longer term damping performance.

What we specifically concern ourselves with is field installation reliability. How sure are we that the installation is optimal? If there’s no field reliability all the lab tests in the world don’t matter. In the field we are not walking on panels to compress the damping compound. We don’t have heavy bladder presses. We have little drywall screws holding a paper-wrapped product (drywall), and not all that many of them.

In 2005 we assembled walls, securing with screws to studs, then removed the screws to view glue compression. It really is shocking how low the viscosity needs to be to achieve even mediocre compression and thin film creation. I would suggest anyone please try this as it is very simple and inexpensive.

Others here have already commented about the street pricing, which is never found openly on the internet.

I’m concerned about some comments in this thread. QuietGlue Pro has been used for years in QuietRock? This “new technology” isn’t new at all? What has been in a tube of QuietGlue all these years? Please don’t forget my intimate involvement with lab testing of visco-elastic polymers since 2004. Old samples of all sorts of products are in storage.

It was suggested that a thin film isn’t a requisite for constrained layer damping. "That’s not how the physics work." That’s interesting. Might two tubes carefully dumped as a single pile in the center of two sheets of drywall effectively damp? Would that work as well as an application that was spread over the entire board surface? Of course not.

The film needs to be in intimate contact with a large portion of the board surface. The CLD system works because the shear force created when the drywall flexes and pulls on the damping compound. There is certainly an optimal thickness to maximize this energy loss due to shear friction. A thick (uncompressed) damping layer offers less resistance, is less susceptible to shear and damping performance therefore drops. The referenced lab tests do not show this since the panels were methodically compressed by walking on the glued panels. Black and white in the lab reports. A thick viscosity is fine if you have significant compressive force such as someone walking on the board or a bladder press in a factory. This is not at all the same as the much, much lower force of simple drywall screws is all we have for compressive force. Extremely low viscosity is required.

It was suggested that a drywall contractor would charge $17 a board to hang a single sheet of drywall? That’s like $1 a screw. Perhaps that’s a bid you’d receive if the ceiling required extensive scaffolding, but ground-level commercial drywall is installed for under $6.50 a 4x8 sheet.

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post #29 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 11:49 AM
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Kevin, Thank you for taking your time to reply.

I certainly didnt mean to make my earlier post sound like any attack on your product, I have no axe to grind.

As mentioned I was taking the opprotunity to learn, and test my understanding of the data. It appears that I am missing details.

Here is basically how I arrived at the previous conclusion using the 2011 data as an example,

Using an STC of 54 as a target value:



Using an STC of 53 as a target value


I always appreciate the opprotunity to learn.

Brad

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post #30 of 59 Old 03-24-2011, 12:59 PM
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1) Do not walk on our panels. One contractor once, without us being there, walked on both the Green Glue and QuietGlue Pro panels in a 2008 test (not subsequent tests). Turns out there was no difference in performance anyway. And no walking occurred in 2010 and 2011 tests. So we got more learning out of seeing that than we thought! Ted...come on, drop this. No one needs to walk on your panels or ours. But if they did walk, it is ok. Nothing happens except the contractor gets some needed exercise.

2) We have had QuietGlue Pro for many years as in house technology. We just never got around to updating the consumer QuietGlue until recently. Nevertheless, good news for consumers that we finally did.

3) Your film compression argument is just a red herring and I have to suspect you know this. You need enough coverage to generally keep the panels from not being separated by some glue. Even 25% random coverage can work. We take panels apart with QuietGlue Pro and see better than 75%-85% coverage. About the same as Green Glue. But moreover the models show that film THICKNESS drives low frequency performance...not coverage. Which is why your argument holds no water. See Ross, Kerwin and Unger from the 1960's. This work was done and modeled decades ago. It isn't some kind of mysterious black magic. Just 50 year old math.

4) Costing: We use RSMEANS and here is what they say:
A trusted name in construction costs for more than 60 years, RSMeans offers cost data you can depend on - annually updated construction cost information available in convenient book, CD, or online format - always current, always at your fingertips.
Maybe your data is better than theirs. But they take actual job cost data from finished jobs (thousands) and compile it into their stats. And then it is reviewed. And then used by GC's to cost jobs. Do you think their national average is actually off by 50%? I don't.
But if you can get labor at very cheap rates...by all means do so. That is good news for everyone for sure!

Kevin





Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

I applaud Quiet Solutions for working diligently all these years to produce a material that tests as high as Green Glue. That was no easy task. Clearly under lab conditions and the ability to compress the panels via artificial means both materials perform similarly. Not sure about 3 months from now as I've seen no data on longer term damping performance.

What we specifically concern ourselves with is field installation reliability. How sure are we that the installation is optimal? If there's no field reliability all the lab tests in the world don't matter. In the field we are not walking on panels to compress the damping compound. We don't have heavy bladder presses. We have little drywall screws holding a paper-wrapped product (drywall), and not all that many of them.

In 2005 we assembled walls, securing with screws to studs, then removed the screws to view glue compression. It really is shocking how low the viscosity needs to be to achieve even mediocre compression and thin film creation. I would suggest anyone please try this as it is very simple and inexpensive.

Others here have already commented about the street pricing, which is never found openly on the internet.

I'm concerned about some comments in this thread. QuietGlue Pro has been used for years in QuietRock? This new technology isn't new at all? What has been in a tube of QuietGlue all these years? Please don't forget my intimate involvement with lab testing of visco-elastic polymers since 2004. Old samples of all sorts of products are in storage.

It was suggested that a thin film isn't a requisite for constrained layer damping. "That's not how the physics work." That's interesting. Might two tubes carefully dumped as a single pile in the center of two sheets of drywall effectively damp? Would that work as well as an application that was spread over the entire board surface? Of course not.

The film needs to be in intimate contact with a large portion of the board surface. The CLD system works because the shear force created when the drywall flexes and pulls on the damping compound. There is certainly an optimal thickness to maximize this energy loss due to shear friction. A thick (uncompressed) damping layer offers less resistance, is less susceptible to shear and damping performance therefore drops. The referenced lab tests do not show this since the panels were methodically compressed by walking on the glued panels. Black and white in the lab reports. A thick viscosity is fine if you have significant compressive force such as someone walking on the board or a bladder press in a factory. This is not at all the same as the much, much lower force of simple drywall screws is all we have for compressive force. Extremely low viscosity is required.

It was suggested that a drywall contractor would charge $17 a board to hang a single sheet of drywall? That's like $1 a screw. Perhaps that's a bid you'd receive if the ceiling required extensive scaffolding, but ground-level commercial drywall is installed for under $6.50 a 4x8 sheet.

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