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post #451 of 1755 Old 07-19-2012, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Height from the concrete floor to the lowest hanging beam is 107-1/2" (8', 11-1/2"). I'm glad to have that much height to work with, but it is surprising by how quickly it disappears. Take away 2" for DD+GG, then another 15" for the riser and you're down to 7'-6" at the riser. Then take away the height for the soffit, and you're quickly down to it being cramped. All that said, I'm really fortunate to have the space I do to work with. I'm just trying to get the most out of it biggrin.gif

It's been an while since I've posted an update, but the house is finished (with the exception of a few minor touch-ups, and we've moved in. I decided that it probably wasn't a good idea to post pictures of our then vacant house with all of our appliances in place. Now we're trying to actually move in, which is a daunting task to say the least. Our garage and most of the basement is stuffed with the boxes that we didn't want to deal with right away. It's going to take a while to sort through all of that. I didn't realize just how much stuff those professional movers can pack into one of those storage PODs. It was like the clown car at the circus when we started unloading the thing. Stuff just kept coming out of there.

Hopefully I can get some interesting updates posted pretty soon. I'm hoping to give Ted a call in the not too distant future and order some soundproofing supplies! And then the fun starts biggrin.gif

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post #452 of 1755 Old 07-20-2012, 05:07 AM
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I haven't been able to check in nearly as much as I'd like, but I check this morning and see that you're in the house! Congratulations! I remember that day like yesterday. You have some exciting times ahead over the next few years as you settle in. Heck, it was 5 years ago for us and we still have a basement room full of boxes.....I don't suppose we need anything that's in there. tongue.gif

Anyway, enjoy my friend. You earned it. Look forward to the "rest of the story".

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post #453 of 1755 Old 07-21-2012, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Tony. We are certainly excited about the new house, and more than a little overwhelmed. I know what you mean by not needing stuff that's been packed up. Most of our stuff has been in storage for almost two years now. It's a little odd going through it after so long. I sorta feel the same as you. If I haven't needed it in all this time, do I really even need to open the boxes smile.gif

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post #454 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a tiny bit of progress to report. I'm in the cue for the AVS Pro Theater Layout. Hopefully within the next few weeks I'll have some plans and I can really get started.

I do, however, have a few issues that are troubling me. First, I took a closer look at my ceiling height on the riser. I have 9' ceilings, but my riser is 15-1/2". Assuming I drop my ceiling below the beam in my theater, that only leaves me with 7-1/2" above my door OPENING (not including any trim). I would like to have an 8" soffit to run my ductwork in. Any thoughts on minimum height between the top of the door opening and the soffit?

Next, I have an engineered flooring system in my theater, but because the floor above has lots of open areas, they had to double up and even triple some of the I-beams along with some LVL's. The problem is that this leaves a hollow cavity between the beams that I can't get insulation into. Has anyone else run into an issue like this? I'm planning to talk to Ted about it, but I'm curious as to what others have done as well.

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post #455 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 09:15 AM
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How large is the area in question? Is this just a few inches between the beams, where the rest of the ceiling is OK?

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post #456 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

How large is the area in question? Is this just a few inches between the beams, where the rest of the ceiling is OK?

Here's a render that is pretty close to accurate as far as beam locations. This is looking down on the ceiling framing, so imagine standing on the second floor looking down onto the theater ceiling. There are several places where they had to double/triple beams or put I-beams next to LVLs (I count 9 or 10). You can imagine with a layout like this that the beam spacing is all over the place.

CeilingRender.jpg

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post #457 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 12:14 PM
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So a few of those narrowed joist cavities are inaccessible for some pink fluff?

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post #458 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Except for the LVL's, the floor is supported by wooden I-beams. So everywhere there are two or more butted together (or an I-beam butted to an LVL) I will not be able to get pink fluffy insulation between them. Here's another view to hopefully clarify a bit.

CeillingRender.jpg

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post #459 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 12:29 PM
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Ah. OK I see why there's an issue. I wouldn't give it a second thought. Not enough air volume without insulation to worry about

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post #460 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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THANK YOU! I was beginning to worry!

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post #461 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 12:48 PM
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+1 to what Ted said. Between the double 5/8" drywall, Green Glue, Isolation Clips and the resilient channel doing the overwhelming majority of the "heavy lifting" of the soundproofing, these small uninsulated areas will have negligible, if any, impact.
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post #462 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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The more votes for don't worry the better smile.gif Would it be advisable to put acoustic caulk along the seam where the two joists meet ( or almost meet). Of course, the pipes going through them in places would probably make that pointless.

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post #463 of 1755 Old 08-08-2012, 01:43 PM
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Isolating potentially vibrating elements is always a good idea. Items such as framing members (as in your case), pipes of all kinds, ductwork, and electrical cables all can assist / promote the conduction of vibration to the original (un-isolated) framing. That's the one thing we're trying to avoid and one reason why we decouple.

I would wedge shims every few feet so they act more as one and can't possible rattle. That impact would certainly travel.

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post #464 of 1755 Old 08-09-2012, 07:44 AM
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Would filling the cavities with spray foam add any benefit, assuming it didn't distort the framing members?

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post #465 of 1755 Old 08-09-2012, 07:48 AM
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It's best to avoid foam. The very slight theoretical benefit of insulation between two barely spaced joists is small compared to the real risk of foam and vibration conduction.

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post #466 of 1755 Old 08-10-2012, 04:23 AM
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use the knock out holes and some blown in insulation to fill the gap. Ive seen plans on the internet to build a simple one with a shop vac using the blower option or just rent one which may be a little overkill.
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post #467 of 1755 Old 08-10-2012, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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A bit of a change of topic, but I've got another thread going to try to work out my soffit and HVAC design. I'll post an abbreviated version here just so I've got it all in one place. My riser height is causing me to limit the height of my soffit. I'd originally planned to run my HVAC supply and dead vent ducting through my soffits, but it doesn't look like it will accommodate that. These first two renders show how I'd originally planned for the HVAC supply and crossover supply to enter the theater. I'm afraid this wouldn't allow a long enough stretch of duct in the soffit to adequately attenuate any sound in it. It also cuts off the path for my exhaust to get to the front of the room. So, I'm revisiting an idea that I'd sort of given up on which is running my exhaust duct out through my riser.

VentsFraming.jpg

VentsNoCeiling.jpg

I'm also considering running my two supply lines around the front of my theater and entering behind the screen wall. From there I could enter the soffit above my screen. Also, the area behind the front wall of the theater is unfinished storage, so I can build as many dead vents as I like. The downside is the two supply lines will be VERY LONG! If anyone has any advice on how long is too long, it would be much appreciated!

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post #468 of 1755 Old 08-12-2012, 04:47 AM
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Every 90 degree bend you make is the equivalent of 30 feet of straight run in terms of resistance. Your proposed pathways in the second option are too long are too long and have too many turns IMHO.

And for two 6" supplies my Ductilator tells me that you would need an 8" return duct at a minimum, 10" optimal - I don't think that is something you are going to have the room for under the riser. Are you planning to have a perimeter soffit or not? I would like to know before making a recommendation of placement to you. And in your second drawing, could you please illustrate where your forced air return trunk line is located?
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post #469 of 1755 Old 08-12-2012, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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TMcG, as always, thanks for the info!

I should have labeled my diagrams better, but I have one 8" forced air HVAC supply. Theoretically, it will supply enough cool air to keep the room cool with 8 guests. However, it's not enough to supply the recommended 6 air exchanges. So, I'm planning to add another duct from an adjacent room (no inline fan), and a single exhaust duct with a 400 cfm inline fan. The idea being this would pull air from the adjacent room to supplement cooling and provide enough air exchanges, as well as squeeze a little extra flow from my one HVAC supply. That particular fan has an 8" inlet, so I was planning to use an 8" exhaust duct through the riser and up to my soffit, and then split to two 6" ducts and two vents to reduce the velocity.

I do plan to have a soffit, but it will have to be about 7" deep (at most) due to my riser height. I'm afraid that's not going to be enough to use as a duct.

Also, there is no HVAC return in the basement. This is one of the few rubs I have with the way my house was built. There is a small return in the master bedroom on the main floor and large return in the foyer on the second floor which is essentially open to all three levels through the staircase. Short of losing another foot out of my wife's closet, there really isn't a place to put a return. I spent a lot of time walking the house trying to find a place before we drywalled. Between the LVL's in the basement and the open floor plan, there just isn't a place for another 10" line going from the basement to the attic. mad.gif

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post #470 of 1755 Old 08-12-2012, 01:42 PM
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As an fyi, anytime you go from larger ducts to smaller ducts you increase the air velocity, so splitting an 8 into two sixes will increase the velocity and face pressure. Moving from an 8 to a 10, for example, will decrease the velocity and face pressure.

It is possible to get the CFM you need with a low-profile rectangular duct that will fit inside your soffit. The flat could be used with the in-line fan by terminating the duct into a pressure box and having the fan mounted in the opposite side of the pressure box to create the negative air pressure draw you need.

I can't recall right now - but I think I remember you said your HVAC company would be willing to come out and "make you comfortable" if there was any problem with the basement temp. vs. the rest of the house. Have you talked over your options with them?

The other thing I will mention is that since your supply lines are connected to the main system with the thermostat upstairs, have you considered how you will avoid heating the theater if the upstairs floors are calling for heat? I realize in Alabama the overwhelming majority of the time you will be cooling, but there are probably several months where you will also be heating I would guess.

Perhaps a ducted split system is in your future.....
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post #471 of 1755 Old 08-12-2012, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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As an fyi, anytime you go from larger ducts to smaller ducts you increase the air velocity, so splitting an 8 into two sixes will increase the velocity and face pressure. Moving from an 8 to a 10, for example, will decrease the velocity and face pressure.

I didn't stop to run the numbers on the two 6" ducts vs the single 8" as I assumed the total cross-sectional area would be higher. It is, but not nearly as much as I would have expected! Two 6" ducts has a total CSA of ~57 in^2 and an single 8" is ~50 in^2. Seems like there would be some velocity reduction there, but nothing like what I would want. I'm glad you brought that point up. looks like I'll be running two 8" ducts up to my soffit and building a soffit duct at the rear of the theater at the very least.
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It is possible to get the CFM you need with a low-profile rectangular duct that will fit inside your soffit. The flat could be used with the in-line fan by terminating the duct into a pressure box and having the fan mounted in the opposite side of the pressure box to create the negative air pressure draw you need.
I can't recall right now - but I think I remember you said your HVAC company would be willing to come out and "make you comfortable" if there was any problem with the basement temp. vs. the rest of the house. Have you talked over your options with them?

That is correct, and I plan to hold them to it. They're coming out this week to discuss some other issues we're seeing, and to bring me a copy of the manual J and D, but I haven't spoken with them about the theater yet. I want to come up with the best solution I can to give it the best shot of working. That way, if it doesn't provide the results I want, I can, with a clear conscious, call and make them fix it.
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The other thing I will mention is that since your supply lines are connected to the main system with the thermostat upstairs, have you considered how you will avoid heating the theater if the upstairs floors are calling for heat? I realize in Alabama the overwhelming majority of the time you will be cooling, but there are probably several months where you will also be heating I would guess.
Perhaps a ducted split system is in your future.....

The basement is on a separate zone. Of course, I don't know what will happen if one zone is calling for heat, and another is calling for cooling. Fortunately, the way our basement is laid out, We could actually put in another dedicated unit without much trouble........... aside from the cost anyway........... and figuring out where to put the exterior unit...... rolleyes.gif

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post #472 of 1755 Old 08-13-2012, 04:03 AM
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I don't know what will happen if one zone is calling for heat, and another is calling for cooling.
I hear this all the time. Zoning has been with us for a long time and this issue has been figured out. If both zones are of equal priority, one of the zones will be serviced first, the other second. If you have established zone priority, then the zone calling for service with the highest priority is serviced first. Some commercial zone control boards will also cycle between zones calling for service if the zones don't reach the desired temperature within a set period of time (like 15 minutes).

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post #473 of 1755 Old 08-13-2012, 04:40 AM
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Dennis is exactly right - zoning systems use a set of complex rules to determine what to do when (yet are very simple for the end user to operate). My home is zoned 2nd floor, 1st floor, basement, theater. I set up the system so that heat takes priority, so if the theater is cooling in the winter and another zone needs heat, it will finish it's 20 minute cycle and then switch to the zone/s that requires heat. If one zone is cooling and then another calls for cooling, it simply opens the second zone and continues cooling. Each zone is independent, so they can open and close at any time.

I am amazed at how well the system works. Throw in some programming and you can have the temps adjust in each floor based on time of day, etc. We typically keep the 1st floor cooler during the day (in the summer) and then swap the temps to the second floor, making it cooler when we go to bed.
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post #474 of 1755 Old 08-13-2012, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info! I figured it was something pretty straight forward. That does give me something else to ask my HVAC contractor, though. I'd like to know what logic they used, and find out if it can be tweaked if need be.

So far I have mixed feelings about the zoned system, but I'm still waiting to pass judgement. On the hottest days in June/July (upper 90's with a few days in triple digits), our unit had trouble getting the house cooled back down during the "return" part of the schedule. Our house is foamed, so we're talking about going from 74 degrees at its warmest in the house back down to 72 degrees. It seemed it had the most trouble when two, or three (maybe even all four) zones were calling for cooling at the same time. It would often take until midnight or later to get cooled down. Obviously there is a lot going on in the house during that time, but that shouldn't matter.

We'll see. It could be as simple as a stuck damper.

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post #475 of 1755 Old 08-13-2012, 02:54 PM
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Something is not right if it takes that long to drop 2 degrees. I have had multiple times this summer where we have left the windows open during he day - even if it was really warm outside, but decided to turn on the AC before going to bed. It dropped to the desired temp fairly quickly. When we first switched to the zoned system, it sometimes appeared that the system was kicking on more often, but that was because individual zones may kick on at different times. When a single zone calls for heating/cooling, it gets to the proper temp much quicker due to the additional air flow.
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post #476 of 1755 Old 08-13-2012, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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You're absolutely right. There's no reason it should take that long. But, I'm trying not to make any judgements until they've had a chance to work out the bugs. Of course, now that the days are not as hot, it doesn't take nearly as long to cool off.

I have noticed it running quite a bit as well, but I hope you are right about the different zones. We'll see. Fingers crossed smile.gif

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post #477 of 1755 Old 08-15-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Fortunately, the way our basement is laid out, We could actually put in another dedicated unit without much trouble........... aside from the cost anyway........... and figuring out where to put the exterior unit...... rolleyes.gif

I ran into the same thing. Plenty of room for the air handlers, but a 4th dedicated heat pump would have essentially sat in the backyard as oppose to the cement niche that fit 3 nicely. The mini split heat pumps are smaller than conventional units. They said if I used mini split they could fit the 4th dedicated unit in. But I wanted an ERV so I went with forced air. I found out later that the ERV can be independent from the AC if you want. You can have an HVAC loop and an ERV loop, completely separate systems, but serving the same space. Only problem with separate systems is the ERV basically serves 1 room vs the entire conditioned space if you hook it in with the HVAC.

You said you had a separate room to exchange air with. Maybe you could condition the air in that room with a mini split and ERV, then use the dead vents exclusively to exchange air with the theater. Just a thought. I have no idea what I'm doing, so don't take me too seriously.

 

 

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post #478 of 1755 Old 08-20-2012, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I finally got my load cal for the house, and it looks like they "designed" for ~170 cfm supply into the theater. He said that's probably a little higher than actual, but should be close. That agrees fairly well with the 160 cfm estimate from the chart on the first page of the thread, and it's a straight run right off of the basement trunk line. That should be more than adequate to cool the room with 8 people in it. That only leaves getting the air slowed down to limit the noise, and providing an exhaust.

Along those lines, I've made my first theater related purchase. I bought the 440 cfm Panasonic inline fan. It's not a particularly glamorous purchase, but it's a start. Now if I can only find some time to actually do something down there!

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post #479 of 1755 Old 08-22-2012, 11:44 AM
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I'm watching your progress on this intently.  I want to use the same fan for same purpose.  I really want to know how much the panasonic "sucks"(pun intended) and if your happy with the ambient noise your duct selection produces.... 


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post #480 of 1755 Old 08-24-2012, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a very minor update that took quite a bit of time. I decided to go ahead and tidy up a few things while I'm waiting for my layout from Dennis. I swept and mopped the floor, and wow was it dirty. There was a lot of dirt and mud that had to be cleaned out, but hopefully I'll be able to go down there now without tracking dirt and drywall dust all over my house. I also took a little time and tidied up some of the wiring in my ceiling. There is a lot of it up there. Here are some very boring before and after pics, but we all know, "without pics, it didn't happen" rolleyes.gif

Before

Day1_Before004.jpg

Day1_Before005.jpg

After

Day1_After003.jpg

Day1_After001.jpg

This does bring to mind a question. Should I be concerned about those wires rattling in the ceiling? If so, is it better to have them lying in there loosely and then pack insulation around them, or is it better to tie them up as I did, and then apply the insulation? Or, option 3 I suppose is I'm worrying too much biggrin.gif

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
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