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post #631 of 1956 Old 01-26-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

This just buys me a little space between the speakers and the walls. At least, I assume that's why the layout shows the speakers moved forward of the screen. Now that I think about it, that's probably not as important for a sealed L/R.
Can you explain your thought process here?

I would have assumed that the position specified was for imaging or SBIR or both and not dependent on having sealed or ported mains. (Have I misunderstood what you're saying?)
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post #632 of 1956 Old 01-26-2013, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm.. I think I like that!


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post #633 of 1956 Old 01-26-2013, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Can you explain your thought process here?

I would have assumed that the position specified was for imaging or SBIR or both and not dependent on having sealed or ported mains. (Have I misunderstood what you're saying?)

I missed this a bit ago. I was just thinking that a rear ported L/R jammed in a corner would not be ideal, and pulling it out away from the wall would give it some room to "breathe". SBIR I can see as well. What are your thoughts on this placement and imaging?

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post #634 of 1956 Old 01-26-2013, 05:10 PM
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My thoughts begin with, trust the professional. I'm pretty sure that's where they end, too.

That assumes that a pro decided where to put your speakers and knew what sort of speakers you were going to use.

Here's what I think I know: imaging depends on precise stereo balance. Somewhere along the lines, something is influenced by directivity (sound power, toe-in, etc.). Balancing toe-in and directivity with placement should determine the width of the sweet spot, I think. Then there's the strength of the lateral reflection to consider - again related to directivity and toe-in.

I've just written this without a whole lot of careful thought (obviously), and my pizza just came out of the oven. So I should probably reconsider this tomorrow, having slept on it.
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post #635 of 1956 Old 01-26-2013, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I sat my temporary theater seating at 1x width (that'd be the blue Lowes bucket in the picture).

Made me laugh. You might be ready to take things to the next level and use the obligatory "bed sheet as a screen" to see how your eyes feel while watching content.
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I realize it has a lot to do with all the empty space on either side. With that in mind, I started playing with some screen wall layouts. Here are the two that I like best at this point (the stage is the difference between the two).

Of the 2 renderings for the stage, I like the 2nd one.

As alternatives to the angled columns, you could do regular flat columns on the front wall like they did here:


Dennis had a list of screen walls in his portfolio, not sure if they are on his website. But there was "far east" one that had a large black area and the screen basically floated in the middle. Similar to what I posted above, but imagine it all black. That's what I asked for mine. I've gone from a rimless screen, to 2" border, then 4", then full masking and the increase it blackness surrounding the image was a positive step each time.

I did want to talk about screen sizes without offending anyone. Two of probably the most famous DE designs (due to the posters continual involvement at AVS) are Jeff (thebland) and Art Sonneborn. Both eventually upgraded to larger screens than the initial DE design. Jeff is 14' wide scope, and Art I think is 16'. Tony has similar dimension to you and I, and is at 14'. Mine was originally 12', I asked for 13', but Dennis felt anything more was too much. I've wondered if I put in 12' or 13' would I want to go bigger later as well? So it struck a cord with me, knowing you've got a DE design and are underwhelmed by the screen size.

Some of the reasoning on screen size I think is to protect you from using a larger screen than you can afford to light. With a large screen, you're either looking at an unsatisfyingly dim image after a few hundred hours on the bulb, or presentation style projectors which sacrifice color/quality for brightness, or expensive 3chip DLP. I told Dennis a Lumis was the top end of my budget, so that in part dictated my max screen size. I'm not sure what projector you intend to use, or if that was communicated, but that might be part of the reason you have the size screen you do. Even something like the Sony vw1000 which is twice as bright as the JVC's is said to top out on screens "less than 12' wide".

For what it's worth, I have made the mistake of too wide for the viewing distance in the past, and it was down right uncomfortable to watch. So I think better to err on the side of slightly underwhelmed than slightly uncomfortable. There is also consideration for multiple rows. Is your money seat on 1st or 2nd row? If 2nd row, it might be underwhelming in order to keep first row from being completely overwhelmed.

In any case... my suggestions would be to try looking at that size screen with an actual image on it, consider an all black backdrop, and see if you like the side filler they did in the pic. I think Capt Randy has the angled columns on the side of the screen and a lot of DIY builds do it for the corner bass trapping (with screens going to the edge of the room). It's a preference thing, but not a look I care for.

 

 

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post #636 of 1956 Old 01-26-2013, 09:21 PM
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The last render is exactly what I was trying to describe. Looks good.

Regards,

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post #637 of 1956 Old 01-26-2013, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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So what size screen did you settle on, rabident? The 12'? You bring up some good points. Lighting the screen doesn't worry me as much as viewing distances, though. I figure PJs are only going to get better, and I'd rather be able to upgrade my PJ than have to upgrade my screen and all the construction that would go along with that. However, viewing distances have to be accounted for which are difficult to change after construction as well. So there really are no easy answers.

My bucket was actually set in the front row. I'm not sure which row Dennis "planned" to be the money row, but based on the viewing distances the front will be my preferred spot. That's part of what has me second guessing this. I keep telling myself if I go too big, I can always move to the second row (or mask it down). Unfortunately, I don't have a PJ to test out all the different combinations that I'd like to, so i'm really just trying to make decisions based on my preferences at the theater. I usually sit at about 1.2 - 1.3 times the width, but when I pick a seat it's usually based on the height in the theater. I like to be about 1/3 up to middle of the screen. I would prefer to be closer if the screen was lower on the wall.

In other news, I taped off the layout tonight on the floor, and I don't think I like it. It just doesn't "feel" right. I'm leaning toward the standard AVS stage and soffit design with a black screen wall. I know you guys have all seen it, but no one else I know has smile.gif

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post #638 of 1956 Old 01-26-2013, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

The last render is exactly what I was trying to describe. Looks good.

Regards,

RTROSE

RT, I think we were posting at the same time.

I really liked the render, too. However, once it was taped off on the floor, I didn't get a warm fuzzy I was hoping for. I may change my mind (again), but I'm leaning back towards the standard AVS layout.

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post #639 of 1956 Old 01-26-2013, 10:09 PM
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Oh, the "warm fuzzy" deal huh? Well let me tell you something. Here at the RTROSE household Mrs RTROSE deals in "warm fuzzies" and "cold pricklies". If the Mrs doesn't get a warm fuzzy about something or gets a cold prickly then she is being told by her intuition that it is a no go, deal breaker, game over type of thing. Now my senses are not as attuned as hers so sometimes I have to rely on her and her warm fuzzies and cold pricklies. Believe it or not I understand, and I'm being serious about the Mrs. No joke. Sometimes it just all comes down to that warm fuzzy feeling we get when we look at something and it just flat out works.

FWIW I still like the last render. wink.gif

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post #640 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 05:46 AM
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Rabident, great post!

My money row has always been the middle row with the third row bar being a close second. My front row is a bit too much for my taste. I don't mind sitting there to give guests better seats. In every crowd we've had, there are a few that prefer the front row. I watch movies from the middle row and sporting events from the bar.

I'm on my 5th generation of projector now and the advancements in just the 15 years I've had them is astonishing. For that reason, I have faith in how fast technology will catch up to screen size. When I started, I was far beyond limits at just 96". I suppose I still am.smile.gif

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post #641 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

So what size screen did you settle on, rabident? The 12'?

The design is for the 13'. We just got power turned on last week, so I need to tape it out. Like Tony, my view ratios were optimized for 2nd row. I choose 2nd row because the riser makes the screen appear lower. I need to get down to FL and see a DCI projector in an HT setting. Unless I go with a brighter projector, I'll likely keep the 13' to start.

 

 

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post #642 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I've never heard of "cold pricklies" before (although the first time I read that, I thought it said cold PICKLIES), but it certainly gets the point across smile.gif I'm not sure what about that layout doesn't look right taped on the floor. I liked the render as well, and was all ready to layout the clips for the soffit. It's still taped off, so I'm sure I 'll take a few more looks before it's all said and done. I just want to make sure I get my extra row of channel in the right spot.

Tony, between you and Rabident, I have quite a bit more to think about. When I laid the theater out myself, I planned for a middle row prime seat. I figured the front would be a little close, and the back a little too far, but useable for both. Making the front row the prime seat seems like it will make the second row a little too far, and the back row way too far away. If you're shooting for second row prime seats, then a 14' screen with a second row at 16' would seem like a pretty good starting point.

I'm seriously considering changing my screen size to accommodate a 2nd row prime seat.

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post #643 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 07:07 PM
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Ok, quick question for you guys. Why the 2nd/middle row as the prime seating area? Is it personal preference? Design consideration, acoustics, or just the way it worked out? Without any kind of official design input I had always intended the front row to be the money seats, I think I got it accomplished, but it with dumb luck. Did not know if a professional design had any influence in the middle row or if that is what you wanted so that is why things were done the way they were. I hope my ramblings are not confusing, as I think I just may have confused myself.

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Oh, and on the "cold pricklies". Mrs. RTROSE came up with that and has trademarked the phrase, so each time you say it, you owe me er ah I mean her a quarter. biggrin.gif I'm hoping to pay for v2.0 with the royalties!

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post #644 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 07:15 PM
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+1 - I like the last render as well. Clean, simple and functional.

I understand completely where Tony and Rabident are coming from on the larger screen size...and I can't say that I don't have that same tendency myself. But as mentioned before in another post, there are a number of downsides by going too big. One is that you need a light cannon to fill the screen which typically means big, expensive projector with terrible contrast numbers. Another is that if you don't buy the light cannon you are then left with positioning the projector at the low end of the focal range just to have a chance at filling the screen with adequate light. Third, if you are considering 3D, the effect won't be nearly as good without a nice bright image to start with, particularly with active shutter glasses. Fourth, if you put the same exact amount of resolution on a much larger screen, the perceived resolution will not be as great because the picture has been blown up so large. And if I recall correctly, you were not going to spend the money on an anamorphic lens and opt for lens memory instead....this will exacerbate your resolution problem on a larger screen since you are only dealing with a 25% drop in resolution (810 lines with zooming) and a 30% drop in brightness since you wouldn't be using all the available pixels. Then there is the uncomfortable viewing angle situation previously mentioned.

Minimum acceptable light is typically around 11 ft./lamberts. THX recommends 16 or 17 ft. lamberts of brightness as standard. Before locking in on a screen size I would spend some serious time at projectorcentral.com with the short list of probable projectors for your theater to work everything out in terms of calibrated brightness, focal range and the range of mounting distances. I think you'll find in your projector price range that 12' width on a 2.35:1 aspect ratio is about the max. Any larger and you start to sacrifice picture quality, resolution and brightness for size. I would also play around with viewing angles on this website's calculator to find a good balance of what is optimal....meaning what is the biggest screen you can get that satisfies all of the professional criteria? I still think you'll end up with a 12' width max.

Good luck!

PS - My drywall hanging is unfortunately still progressing and not complete. Like you, I thought I could get it done in one massive work weekend, but I had some hiccups that beat me down. Full write-up in my thread, by the way.
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post #645 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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RT, Dennis's design for my space seems to have the front row as the prime seats. However, I think this is a matter of keeping the screen size down to something......... reasonable (11' is the design in my case) smile.gif

However, I think I would prefer the middle row prime seating because then both the front row and the back row should be "OK". Compare that to a front row prime where the 3rd row is now a long way away from the prime position. My back row will be a little over 2 times the designed screen width. Also, with a second row prime, it's one less set of steps for me to go down smile.gif

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post #646 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 07:37 PM
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Ok, gotcha. I think the difference is the consideration of the third row. I only have two rows so the second row is still very good. I could see how it would diminish if I had to take another row into consideration. Of course I am also only 10 feet away from a 114" diagonal 16:9 screen far smaller than 11, 12, 13, or 14 ft screens you guys are talking about. No wonder all you guys need light cannons!

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post #647 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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TMcG, good advice as always! I've spent quite a bit of time on the projector calculator sites, and the results are generally not favorable for what I'd like to do. The render above uses a 12' screen, BTW.

Decisions, decisions!

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post #648 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

Ok, gotcha. I think the difference is the consideration of the third row. I only have two rows so the second row is still very good. I could see how it would diminish if I had to take another row into consideration. Of course I am also only 10 feet away from a 114" diagonal 16:9 screen far smaller than 11, 12, 13, or 14 ft screens you guys are talking about. No wonder all you guys need light cannons!

Regards,

RTROSE

I think you're at about 1.2 x width, which seems to be where a lot of people like to be. Amazing how our parents told us not to sit so close to the TV. So we just got bigger TVs when we grew up smile.gif

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post #649 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's good 'ol reliable vs. the leading contender.





Comparing the two of these I really feel like I have to do something between the screen and the wall. Otherwise I'm afraid it will look like too much empty space if I go with a screen less than 14'.

EDIT: Sorry for the string of posts.

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post #650 of 1956 Old 01-27-2013, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
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Comparing the two of these I really feel like I have to do something between the screen and the wall. Otherwise I'm afraid it will look like too much empty space if I go with a screen less than 14'.

To my eyes this one is the clear winner.

And I couldn't agree more....you have to do something to bridge the gap and I think your design does exactly that.
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post #651 of 1956 Old 01-28-2013, 02:48 PM
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^^^+1 I really like this render. Even though I think this is the one that you are lacking the warm fuzzy on. To me and TMcG it looks "right". I can't remember, where you looking at the Panny PJ? I was looking at some PJ's and using the calculator to see what is needed for such a big screen. There are not many "budget" PJ's out there that fit the bill. Guess that is why they make screens with "gain" right?

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post #652 of 1956 Old 01-28-2013, 03:44 PM
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Good discussion! I'll get a chance to go measure my distances after dinner... post to come! smile.gif

Regarding second row prime, I followed the same thought process thinking it makes the first and third rows closer to the target. I also avoided maneuvering the steps in the front of the room. It also put my eyes right at 1/3 from the bottom of the screen (which is a typical goal). Lastly, it positions me at distances from my rear surrounds that I liked. The rears end up about 9' behind me.

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post #653 of 1956 Old 01-28-2013, 05:02 PM
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My seating measures the following: 1st row = 140" (.83 width) 2nd row = 215" (1.28 width) 3rd row = 263" (1.56 width). So my prime seating does hit that popular distance.

FWIW, I've never felt a need for more brightness even though the capabilities of my projector and screensize calculate poorly. The real world compromise is not as drastic too me. Your mileage may vary.

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post #654 of 1956 Old 01-28-2013, 05:13 PM
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Well, I have to say Tony, what you and J_P_A say about the 2nd/middle row makes perfect sense. I was not thinking about accommodating all three rows I was thinking along the lines of my two rows. Which in my case making the front row the primary spot still works out really well for my space considering I only have two rows. The funny thing is I actually watch TV from the back row and movies from the front row.

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post #655 of 1956 Old 01-28-2013, 05:31 PM
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Wow, just went through your thread quickly.Love watching the house being built. Very nice. Love that process, especially when others are actually supplying the labor. smile.gif Theater room is looking good, will follow along for the ride. smile.gif

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post #656 of 1956 Old 01-28-2013, 10:46 PM
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My 2nd row prime was to get my eyes where I wanted them. I like dead center vertically, which would have made the screen too low from 1st row. I also like being off the floor. It was something I asked Dennis for. He basically takes what you ask for and works it in unless it would be bad for performance. So I assume it's ok for my space, but I don't know if it's acoustically desirable or not.

 

 

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post #657 of 1956 Old 01-28-2013, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

My seating measures the following: 1st row = 140" (.83 width) 2nd row = 215" (1.28 width) 3rd row = 263" (1.56 width). So my prime seating does hit that popular distance.

FWIW, I've never felt a need for more brightness even though the capabilities of my projector and screensize calculate poorly. The real world compromise is not as drastic too me. Your mileage may vary.

I would interested to see what your other FOV preferences were. For example, I watch video on an i-phone much farther away than 1.2x screen width. On my computer monitor I like ~ 1.5x. With my old 10' wide screen I liked to be about 12' to 13' back, which is what I gave Dennis as my preference (1.2x - 1.3x). But I've been going to IMAX a lot without having a HT and I've noticed I like to sit pretty close. So I was wondering if FOV preference was non-linear? There is definitely a preference for watching something big from far -vs- little from near. Does the increased physical distance let our eyes relax a little bit, and allow a slightly higher FOV comfort level as physical distance goes up?

 

 

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post #658 of 1956 Old 01-29-2013, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

My seating measures the following: 1st row = 140" (.83 width) 2nd row = 215" (1.28 width) 3rd row = 263" (1.56 width). So my prime seating does hit that popular distance.

FWIW, I've never felt a need for more brightness even though the capabilities of my projector and screensize calculate poorly. The real world compromise is not as drastic too me. Your mileage may vary.

Thanks for those numbers, Tony! Looks like everything in my room is slid back a foot or so from yours. And again, it looks like my layout is for a first row prime with a much smaller screen. I sure wish you were closer. I'd invite myself over for a demo to get an idea of what a "dim" PJ looks like on a 14' screen smile.gif
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Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

Well, I have to say Tony, what you and J_P_A say about the 2nd/middle row makes perfect sense. I was not thinking about accommodating all three rows I was thinking along the lines of my two rows. Which in my case making the front row the primary spot still works out really well for my space considering I only have two rows. The funny thing is I actually watch TV from the back row and movies from the front row........

I'm not surprised to hear that you sit further back for TV. Our "HD" stations are pretty pitiful. We sit at about 13' from our 60" TV, and it still looks bad sometimes mad.gif
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Originally Posted by chinadog View Post

Wow, just went through your thread quickly.Love watching the house being built. Very nice. Love that process, especially when others are actually supplying the labor. smile.gif Theater room is looking good, will follow along for the ride. smile.gif

Bud

Glad to have you along. I was surprised how painless building our house actually was. We had a couple little hiccups early on, but our builder was great about listening to what we wanted. Once we were all on the same page, life was good! I will admit, though, I prefer watching people hang/finish drywall over doing it myself, any day!

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #659 of 1956 Old 01-29-2013, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post

My 2nd row prime was to get my eyes where I wanted them. I like dead center vertically, which would have made the screen too low from 1st row. I also like being off the floor. It was something I asked Dennis for. He basically takes what you ask for and works it in unless it would be bad for performance. So I assume it's ok for my space, but I don't know if it's acoustically desirable or not.

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Originally Posted by rabident View Post

I would interested to see what your other FOV preferences were. For example, I watch video on an i-phone much farther away than 1.2x screen width. On my computer monitor I like ~ 1.5x. With my old 10' wide screen I liked to be about 12' to 13' back, which is what I gave Dennis as my preference (1.2x - 1.3x). But I've been going to IMAX a lot without having a HT and I've noticed I like to sit pretty close. So I was wondering if FOV preference was non-linear? There is definitely a preference for watching something big from far -vs- little from near. Does the increased physical distance let our eyes relax a little bit, and allow a slightly higher FOV comfort level as physical distance goes up?

Interesting points. I wonder what the tradeoffs are for a 1st row vs. 2nd row prime seats from an acoustic standpoint.

I'll have to take note of where I sit the next time I go to an Imax film. I rarely worry about how close I am, and tend to gravitate towards the seats at the bottom 1/3 of the screen. I wonder how that translates to the viewing distance at an Imax.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #660 of 1956 Old 01-29-2013, 11:55 AM
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In many cases, your tolerance for being close is reflected (nice pun) in the resolution of the projector ... the higher the resolution, the closer you may feel comfortable.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
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