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post #721 of 1646 Old 02-22-2013, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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No pics. It looks the same. I've just added a few more clips. I need to wait until I get my inspection done before I can do much more.


Hmmmmm. I better go take a picture of those few clips. I can already hear the ribbing smile.gif

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post #722 of 1646 Old 02-22-2013, 11:26 PM
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he he yep take a pic!biggrin.gif
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post #723 of 1646 Old 02-23-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Satellite broadband. It's fast, but the latency is horrible. We did exceed our bandwidth cap last month, and with all those new pics in TMcGs thread, I gotta feeling I'm on schedule to do it again smile.gif

Sorry! Send me the bill!

Actually, I had a couple of PMs asking me to post some of my other pictures that didn't make the first cut so I may do that this weekend during some downtime. Looks like I will be taxing your bandwidth again....but at least the thread has flipped to a new page so both picture packs won't download!
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post #724 of 1646 Old 02-23-2013, 11:59 AM
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I had looked into satellite broadband at onetime but it was not any faster (at the time) than my DSL and I did not want an additional and bigger dish on my house. Plus it was at least twice as expensive as the other options. I feel for you buddy. Glad you now can come to the other side.

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post #725 of 1646 Old 02-23-2013, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Satellite is pretty good for plain 'ol surfing. when we lived in Kansas we had ATT Uverse, and that was SMOKIN' fast. Ping times were really good as well. It spoiled me to say the least. I suspect that snowball has a better chance than we do of getting cable internet here. They might expand the DSL, but I'm not holding my breath. It will be pretty awesome if this 4G business works out. I'm going to keep an eye on the ping times on my phone, but I am NOT going to try tethering my Xbox. I would make more progress with a PJ hung than I would if I was playing online games at night smile.gif

EDIT: Almost forgot the whole reason for my post. I heard back from the city today, and I'll go pick up my permit on Monday! Progress!

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post #726 of 1646 Old 02-23-2013, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I secured my clips with hex head screws from McMaster. I had the same (mostly unfounded) concerns, so I just ordered a few boxes and was done with it. Plus the hex was nice for driving overhead.

Tim

Do you have a link to the screws you used?

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post #727 of 1646 Old 02-25-2013, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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In case anyone has been following the saga of the Grip-RIte screws I used for the ceiling clips in my theater, I believe I have reached a final decision. I decided to take a specimen of the 1-5/8" screws and one of the 2" screws that I've been obsessing over down to the big blue box store, and compare them to all the other #8 screws I could find. I started in the specialty stainless screws, worked my way down the aisle through the wood screws in the little plastic baggies and finally to boxes of deck screws. It turns out the 8x1-5/8" screws that I used on the ceiling are actually representative of all the other #8 screws I could find. The 8x2" screws that I'm using to hang my wall clips are actually just freakishly large. Yep, they're bigger than a #9, but not quite as large as a #10. Heck, the box I've got is actually larger than 8x2" Grip-Rite screws I found there.

I'm sure some of you are thinking, why didn't he just do that to begin with. Yeah, I've got nothing. I just ran out of talent smile.gif

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post #728 of 1646 Old 02-25-2013, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

In case anyone has been following the saga of the Grip-RIte screws I used for the ceiling clips in my theater, I believe I have reached a final decision. I decided to take a specimen of the 1-5/8" screws and one of the 2" screws that I've been obsessing over down to the big blue box store, and compare them to all the other #8 screws I could find. I started in the specialty stainless screws, worked my way down the aisle through the wood screws in the little plastic baggies and finally to boxes of deck screws. It turns out the 8x1-5/8" screws that I used on the ceiling are actually representative of all the other #8 screws I could find. The 8x2" screws that I'm using to hang my wall clips are actually just freakishly large. Yep, they're bigger than a #9, but not quite as large as a #10. Heck, the box I've got is actually larger than 8x2" Grip-Rite screws I found there.

I'm sure some of you are thinking, why didn't he just do that to begin with. Yeah, I've got nothing. I just ran out of talent smile.gif

OK....so what did you end up buying / using for the 2" ones? confused.gif
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post #729 of 1646 Old 02-25-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I used the 1-5/8" screws on the ceiling because I used 2x4s for furring strips on the ceiling. When this first started I decided there was no point in using a 2" screw for a 1-1/2" board.

After I had all my ceiling clips up, I started on the walls and could tell the 2" screws were noticeably larger diameter. My OCD kicked in, and the whole project came to a halt smile.gif

EDIT: I used the crazy big 8x2" screws on the walls. I figure they just need to have adequate shear strength and pullout is not as important.

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post #730 of 1646 Old 02-25-2013, 07:36 PM
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I need to remember to keep my OCD in check as I do my build. It's so easy to get caught up in paralysis by analysis. At least I know I'm not the only one... wink.gif
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post #731 of 1646 Old 02-25-2013, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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We should start a sub forum. Introductions go like this:

"Hi, my name is J_P_A, and I have an OCD exacerbated by home theater construction"

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post #732 of 1646 Old 02-26-2013, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Today's update, since it took a little over a week to get my building permit, I decided to go back and replace some of my horizontal fire blocking. Rather than use DW, I picked up a couple sheets of Hardiebacker. I decided that's the right way to do it, although I'm not convinced there is much difference between DW against the concrete walls and my fiberglass insulation. But, at the very least I'll know I used the right material. I also replaced two studs that were twisted or bowed. Again, no pictures. Pulling that insulation down and putting it back up is one of those things that I don't want to drag out any longer than I have to.

Speaking of permits, I've scheduled my inspection for Thursday. If it goes well I may try to get my channel up over the weekend and order my DW next week biggrin.gif Now I'm starting to wonder if there's anything I've forgotten to do pre-drywall. I don't think so. The way my room is situated and the way the joists run, most of my wiring will go in from two penetrations, and I'm planning to run it all inside my soffits. So aside from the 2" conduit for the PJ, there really wasn't anything else I needed to run outside the theater. I'm open to suggestions, though.

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post #733 of 1646 Old 02-26-2013, 01:27 PM
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I would recommend running power down through the back wall so you have a penetration coming directly into the future riser base in case you have powered theater seats or just want electrical in the riser. Same is true for any lighting in the riser as well as any accessories: Buttkicker / bass shaker speaker wire, quick connect port for a gaming system; any necessary power, signal or control wire for a potential back bar. Of course you can run all this through the soffit and down through your columns...but if you are undecided on the design or even if you will have columns then you may wish to consider this option.

The other suggestion is power OUTSIDE the conduit you have running to the projector. And I would have this power wire run to the rack via a powerbridge so the projector's bulb could be saved by a battery back-up to go through the full cool down sequence should the power fail.

And you do know to have rigid pipe penetrations through the soundproof shell for your HVAC, correct?

Good luck!
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post #734 of 1646 Old 02-26-2013, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Good points. I was planning to route my riser power down through a column, but I think I could just as easily route it in through my equipment room as it's also at riser height. However, I may consider dropping a conduit or two down there before I drywall JIK. I'll double check where the front of my riser is and see what options I have for getting a conduit it there.

I have a 12-2 from my rack to where I "think" the PJ will go that is not in my conduit to the same location (I didn't mention it above). Fortunately, my joists are running in that direction, so if I'm off, it shouldn't be too hard to fish another wire over there.

I'm planning to route my HVAC through the walls at ceiling height. At the front I'm planning to use a section of 8" rigid pipe, and at the back I'm thinking of using an 8", 90 degree register boot to dump directly into my soffit. I haven't finalized the details on that yet, but I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do. There is some potential for trial and error here to get my velocities down going into the room. I know what size ducts I need there, but anytime you have sharp/abrupt changes in the flow path you introduce localized velocity gradients that can cause noise. We'll just have to see there.

Again, good points all-around! That certainly has me thinking smile.gif

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post #735 of 1646 Old 02-26-2013, 02:06 PM
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This may seem like a PITA, but regarding the projector power I would recommend that you get the power all the way to the center of the back wall and then run the wire straight through your ceiling, moving toward the front of the room about 10-12 feet. In this way no matter what projector, screen size and throw distance you end up with you will be able to penetrate the ceiling at the midpoint and grab the wire.

You and I had a fairly extensive discussion on HVAC a while ago. If an updated SketchUp drawing is available with your HVAC plan, could you please post?
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post #736 of 1646 Old 02-26-2013, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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There are several LVLs in the way of me running front to back. I suppose I could drop the power line below the joists and attach to my furring strips, but then I'd have to deal with staples when I went to grab my power wire. Hmmmmm.... It's a good idea, I'll have to think on it a bit. If I go below the joists, I would want the wire stapled firmly so I don't have to worry about it falling down on my channel and rattling or the vibration from cutting into it.

This is close to what I'm thinking about. The difference is the powered return will enter at the top of the wall rather than running up, over, and back down into the ceiling. Going into the wall cuts out one 90, although it does restrict me to a roughly 6"x16" opening between studs.


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post #737 of 1646 Old 02-27-2013, 04:33 AM
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There are several LVLs in the way of me running front to back. I suppose I could drop the power line below the joists and attach to my furring strips, but then I'd have to deal with staples when I went to grab my power wire. Hmmmmm.... It's a good idea, I'll have to think on it a bit. If I go below the joists, I would want the wire stapled firmly so I don't have to worry about it falling down on my channel and rattling or the vibration from cutting into it.

This is close to what I'm thinking about. The difference is the powered return will enter at the top of the wall rather than running up, over, and back down into the ceiling. Going into the wall cuts out one 90, although it does restrict me to a roughly 6"x16" opening between studs.


I thought you only had the one LVL in the approximate middle of the room but I guess I was mistaken. To your point, if you go under the LVL you will definitely want to staple the wire to code which means snug but not tight and generally immovable. It was just a thought and a trick I had seen used several times before which obviously doesn't work in your situation.

I like the simplicity of your updated design. One question - is a single 8" supply sufficient for that size of room? I am sure you have it all calculated out and I don't have my Ductilator handy, it just seemed light. One 8" flex is equivalent to two 6" flex....which is what I have running in my theater. I recall the amount of supply for my room to be sufficient, but barely. Your room is 4 feet wider than mine and a lot deeper (jealous), hence my concern.

Good luck on your inspection.
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post #738 of 1646 Old 02-27-2013, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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There are four LVLs in my ceiling. One of which (I think that one is actually a parallam) is huge and hangs down 2" past the rest. However, it's a good idea, and I may try to run a 12-2 front to back between LVLs. I won't have the flexibility I would if I ran it from midway all the way to the back, but it would still give me some options.

An 8" supply works to be more than enough to cool 8 people, but it's not enough to provide 4 exchanges per hour. I think I'm at 2.3 exchanges per hour. However, I'm not sure my house meets that requirement anyway.

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post #739 of 1646 Old 02-27-2013, 08:40 PM
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There are four LVLs in my ceiling. One of which (I think that one is actually a parallam) is huge and hangs down 2" past the rest. However, it's a good idea, and I may try to run a 12-2 front to back between LVLs. I won't have the flexibility I would if I ran it from midway all the way to the back, but it would still give me some options.

An 8" supply works to be more than enough to cool 8 people, but it's not enough to provide 4 exchanges per hour. I think I'm at 2.3 exchanges per hour. However, I'm not sure my house meets that requirement anyway.

Did you ever settle on installing a hush box for your projector to extract the heat? And are you planning on LED recessed lights or traditional halogens? I just made the decision today in my own theater that I am going to stick with Halogens for the recessed cans, specifically Philips Halogena line which throws out more light with less wattage and less heat. Recessed LED fixtures, while better from a cooling perspective, still have a long way to go for control and dimming capabilities as robust as Halogen and Incandescent. The reason I bring this up is that these Halogens are now putting me over my heat load calcs for the amount of supply I have. And like you, I also have 8 seats and a possible 4 seat back bar. I'll probably have to prepare for / consider an in-line booster fan for my two supplies as a precaution against sweating balls in a packed theater, especially if the lights are on, even dimmed. The good thing is you'll be further than me by the time I hit that stage so I can learn from your build!!! smile.gif
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post #740 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure about the hush box. It looks like my PJ is going to be hanging above the second row, so I'm a little concerned about it being in the way of the bar seating as it is. Adding a hush box would only make it worse. However, I'd really like to add one just to keep the thing quiet and to get the heat out. On top of all that, if I knew exactly where it was going, I'd go ahead and add a vent pipe for it. I may go ahead and put a piece of uninsulated flex up there where my power and conduit are run JIK.

I also haven't put much thought into lights. If I can't find an LED that will dim to suitably, I'll just go with regular incandescents or halogens. Heat is really the only reason to go with LEDs as I don't think they'll be on enough to pay for themselves from an energy savings standpoint. To deal with the heat, I have a 400 cfm exhaust fan that I'll be using for the return. I'm pretty sure I can squeeze a few more CFM out of that 8" if I need to. I'll keep you updated smile.gif HVAC is next up on the list right after the drywall goes up. I'm planning to do a little testing with a theater full of people stand ins (light bulbs biggrin.gif) similar to what Morph1c did in the Black Cat Theater. After all the planning over the past several months/years, HOPE is our plan now smile.gif

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post #741 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 08:27 AM
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HVAC is next up on the list right after the drywall goes up. I'm planning to do a little testing with a theater full of people stand ins (light bulbs biggrin.gif) similar to what Morph1c did in the Black Cat Theater. smile.gif
Thumbs Up! Take lots of pictures for us. smile.gif
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post #742 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't get too excited smile.gif It will take a while to get there. I've still got to get the drywall up, then I'll need to build my dead vents for my supply and return, and get my fan hooked up. But I'm going to try to document the differences I see with a powered vs non-powered return and then possibly when I vary the speed of the fan. We'll see smile.gif

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post #743 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 09:41 AM
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I'm not sure about the hush box. It looks like my PJ is going to be hanging above the second row, so I'm a little concerned about it being in the way of the bar seating as it is. Adding a hush box would only make it worse. However, I'd really like to add one just to keep the thing quiet and to get the heat out. On top of all that, if I knew exactly where it was going, I'd go ahead and add a vent pipe for it. I may go ahead and put a piece of uninsulated flex up there where my power and conduit are run JIK.

I also haven't put much thought into lights. If I can't find an LED that will dim to suitably, I'll just go with regular incandescents or halogens. Heat is really the only reason to go with LEDs as I don't think they'll be on enough to pay for themselves from an energy savings standpoint. To deal with the heat, I have a 400 cfm exhaust fan that I'll be using for the return. I'm pretty sure I can squeeze a few more CFM out of that 8" if I need to. I'll keep you updated smile.gif HVAC is next up on the list right after the drywall goes up. I'm planning to do a little testing with a theater full of people stand ins (light bulbs biggrin.gif) similar to what Morph1c did in the Black Cat Theater. After all the planning over the past several months/years, HOPE is our plan now smile.gif

I think slightly behind the second row's head / above the back bar is the perfect spot for the hush box as there is no risk of head-crackin' whatsoever. I was in Moggie's theater in California a couple of weeks ago and he has a good sized hush box positioned in this way so it is impossible to have it interfere with anyone's head. Just some food for thought.

I will be making a post in my thread soon, but regarding the dimmability of the LEDs....even the ones that dim down to 1% have a perceived light value of almost 20% according to Lutron's website. So that means a halogen at 1% is barely visible whereas an LED at 1% is actually quite bright. Not that the lights will be on a lot, but having the option for them to be dim is certainly preferable.

Looking forward to seeing your heat load setup. Don't forget the load of the projector and lights....
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post #744 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Good news on the theater front. I passed my inspection! Extremely nice, guy. His only comment was I needed to add caulk around the bottom plates adjacent to unfinished spaces/exterior walls. I asked if the acoustic caulk along the bottom of the DW was sufficient, and he said it is. He also offered some advice on "gotchas" that get overlooked. Primarily the networked smoke detector. It will be a sound proofed room after all (I hope). And we chatted about sound proofing a bit.

TMcG, if I can't find a way to get the LEDs to dim to off, I'll just go with conventional lights. So it sounds like that's where we're headed. With all the Grafik Eye chatter lately, I've started considering my lighting control a bit more. Not sure if I'll go with a Graphic Eye, or bite the bullet and step up to a Radio RA2 setup that I can expand to the rest of the house later. My heat load calc was just back of the envelope stuff. You know, 15 cfm per person, and I figured 160 cfm for an 8" round flex duct. That gives me about 40 cfm extra for 8 people, and I figure anything involving people at the bar will likely have the door open anyway.

About the hush box, second row eyes are at 19'8" in my theater. I'm trying to keep my PJ at or around 17'. Although, I'm not sure how much difference 2' will make. I originally wanted to place it as you suggested, but again, we're getting close to 20' at that point, and I'm not sure how well the PJ will perform there. On top of all that, my riser is 15", so I'm dealing with the head hight, and the PJ potentially hanging down into the sight lines of those at the bar. If you have any suggestions, or even some feedback about the PJ's brightness at ~19', I'd appreciate it. I'm leaning heavily towards a 6020, and if I could pin down where it's going, that would make my life a lot easier!

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post #745 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 12:40 PM
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I recently moved my panasonic AE4000 from 16' to 19' throw and didn't notice an appreciable difference in brightness. The 4000 is no light cannon either.

I'm sorry I can't remember which projector you using? How high are your ceilings? Hopefully 9-10' b/c three rows is gonna put that projector pretty low for the bar right? Also, are you zooming or using a lens for 2.40? If your zooming sometimes you have to have the projector within the projected image(screen) dimensions for the zoom feature to work, like when the projector doesn't have power lens shift which mine doesn't.

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post #746 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm considering the Epson 6020, and while it doesn't have the automatic zoom, I'm planning to zoom for 2.4 for now. Since it's a manual zoom, do you know if I'm still limited to keeping the lens within the screen? I've been operating under that assumption, and unfortunately, that would put my PJ at about 6' above my riser.

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post #747 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 01:38 PM
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Good news on the theater front. I passed my inspection! Extremely nice, guy. His only comment was I needed to add caulk around the bottom plates adjacent to unfinished spaces/exterior walls. I asked if the acoustic caulk along the bottom of the DW was sufficient, and he said it is. He also offered some advice on "gotchas" that get overlooked. Primarily the networked smoke detector. It will be a sound proofed room after all (I hope). And we chatted about sound proofing a bit.

TMcG, if I can't find a way to get the LEDs to dim to off, I'll just go with conventional lights. So it sounds like that's where we're headed. With all the Grafik Eye chatter lately, I've started considering my lighting control a bit more. Not sure if I'll go with a Graphic Eye, or bite the bullet and step up to a Radio RA2 setup that I can expand to the rest of the house later. My heat load calc was just back of the envelope stuff. You know, 15 cfm per person, and I figured 160 cfm for an 8" round flex duct. That gives me about 40 cfm extra for 8 people, and I figure anything involving people at the bar will likely have the door open anyway.

About the hush box, second row eyes are at 19'8" in my theater. I'm trying to keep my PJ at or around 17'. Although, I'm not sure how much difference 2' will make. I originally wanted to place it as you suggested, but again, we're getting close to 20' at that point, and I'm not sure how well the PJ will perform there. On top of all that, my riser is 15", so I'm dealing with the head hight, and the PJ potentially hanging down into the sight lines of those at the bar. If you have any suggestions, or even some feedback about the PJ's brightness at ~19', I'd appreciate it. I'm leaning heavily towards a 6020, and if I could pin down where it's going, that would make my life a lot easier!

Congrats on passing the inspection! I will be following your projector discussion very close as my projector will sit ~20' from the screen since it will actually be outside my theater.

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post #748 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 01:51 PM
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Good news on the theater front. I passed my inspection!

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TMcG, if I can't find a way to get the LEDs to dim to off, I'll just go with conventional lights. So it sounds like that's where we're headed. With all the Grafik Eye chatter lately, I've started considering my lighting control a bit more. Not sure if I'll go with a Graphic Eye, or bite the bullet and step up to a Radio RA2 setup that I can expand to the rest of the house later. My heat load calc was just back of the envelope stuff. You know, 15 cfm per person, and I figured 160 cfm for an 8" round flex duct. That gives me about 40 cfm extra for 8 people, and I figure anything involving people at the bar will likely have the door open anyway.

Use THIS link on Lutron's page to see ALL of the LED bulbs and fixtures Lutron has qualified to date. Select Grafik Eye QS from the drop-down menu and hit search. You'll be a bit disappointed with the limited selection, I am sure. Once the selection list comes up you can then click on the hyperlink for that specific fixture or bulb. This takes you to another screen with the more detailed information. I only pulled up the fixtures that could do 1%-99% but in almost every case the perceived light was in the 15-20% range. Not good. If you find anything remotely suitable please let me know, but this, along with the significant upcharge for LED, solidified my decision to just go with the Halogen. As I said before, Lutron recommends a line made by Philips called Halogena which has great light output with less wattage and therefore less heat.
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About the hush box, second row eyes are at 19'8" in my theater. I'm trying to keep my PJ at or around 17'. Although, I'm not sure how much difference 2' will make. I originally wanted to place it as you suggested, but again, we're getting close to 20' at that point, and I'm not sure how well the PJ will perform there. On top of all that, my riser is 15", so I'm dealing with the head height, and the PJ potentially hanging down into the sight lines of those at the bar. If you have any suggestions, or even some feedback about the PJ's brightness at ~19', I'd appreciate it. I'm leaning heavily towards a 6020, and if I could pin down where it's going, that would make my life a lot easier!

Did you settle on a screen size and gain yet? That will have the single greatest determination on your brightness and throw distance. And judging by the fact you are now looking at the Epson 6020 that tells me you are considering an anamorphic lens which takes another 3%+ of light output. The standard Panamorph lens has a focal length that maxes out around 17'5". They say the UH-480 can go up to 20' without any significant degredation, but there is a slight loss in focus.

But let's assume you go with a 130" width 2.35:1 screen with 1.1 gain. That puts your max usable throw distance at 19' 10" and will give you 12 ft. lamberts of brightness. The minimum throw distance is 14'6", fyi. I played around with the tool and the sweet spot is between 16' and 17'2". This will yield between 16 and 17 ft. lamberts of brightness which is right where you want to be. You can get a nice bright image with the projector further back but the tradeoff is that you start to lose contrast and color saturation.

Since you have good ceiling height and an unobstructed throw to the screen, your projector can essentially be flush-mounted to the ceiling with only a minimal gap. No one would even come close to hitting their head. In fact, even on the riser with a hush box I bet you still have 7' of total headroom at a minimum. So it might feel weird to have something that close above your head but realistically it is still higher up than a standard door frame height and people walk through those all the time.

Let me know about your screen size / material when you can.
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post #749 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I've settled on a 144" wide Jamestown Screen with Seymour AV Centerstage XD material. It "claims" a gain of 1.2, but I'm not sure if that's been confirmed or not. I was shooting for a 17' throw for the reasons you mentioned above. I still feel like it would be a little better to move it back to around 18' or 19' if I can get away with it.

However, while I intend to go with a lens at some point, I'm planning to zoom for the time being. Do you know if that limits the lens to being within the screen edge?

BTW: Those are some SPECTACULAR......... uhmmmm..... glasses in that picture smile.gif

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post #750 of 1646 Old 02-28-2013, 03:34 PM
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144"? Wow, that's huge! Mine is 141" wide, so I guess I don't have any room to talk....smile.gif

Officially, the Seymour CenterStage XD material has a gain of 1.16 - and that has been confirmed many times.

Running the number through projector central again it shows for that size screen the maximum throw to land at 12 ft. lamberts is 19' 11". 17' puts you right in the middle of the sweet spot and gets you the targeted 16 ft. lamberts of brightness. I'd just plan for this and any future projector to be 17' from the screen so your electric, signal and exhaust will be 18.5 to 19' from the screen.

Regarding the zoom....I dunno. All I could find is that the Epson has manual zoom. I can't imagine playing with the zoom and focus constantly to go back and forth between HD and scope, so I assume you'd leave it scoped full time until you got a lens.

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