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post #991 of 2021 Old 06-12-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

The bad news, however, is there is quite a bit of wind noise at the opening into the theater. Now that my door seals (extremely) well, I can't hear my server in the theater anymore, but it makes it painfully obvious just how much wind noise I'm getting at the return opening. I'm hoping once I put my soffits up I can duct the vent around to the back of my theater, and give it a large opening to get the velocity down. If that doesn't work, I'll probably be looking for a new fan since this one can't be slowed down. frown.gif
Can you refresh my memory and explain how it's set up currently? Mostly just for comparison as I get toward that point also. Are you dealing with just a standard boot and no grill? What CFM and velocities do you think you have now?
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post #992 of 2021 Old 06-12-2013, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Without measurement gear, it's pretty tough to come up with a good estimate, but we'll take a swag at it. The fan is rated for 420 cfm, but I doubt it's moving that much air with all the bends in the duct. Just guestimating it at 400 cfm, and my current opening is about 6 x 12, that puts the velocity at about 800 fpm. I don't think I believe that, but I don't have anything else to compare it to.

I need a grille that is about 1.6 s.f. to get the velocity down to 250 fpm. I've got plenty of room for the grille, but the problem will containing the noise at the room entrance while I get the velocity down. Obviously, the alternative is to just slow the fan down, but that sacrifices air exchanges.

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post #993 of 2021 Old 06-12-2013, 02:55 PM
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I think these exhaust fans are deceiving since they give you such a small duct outlet. At 420CFM you need to be using 12" flex. I'm sure the fan probably has a 6" inlet.

Increasing the grill size alone won't help. The noise is from the end of the flex. I think Big ran into this same problem in Black Cat theater (may have been this same fan, too). I don't remember how they resolved it, but there's probably some good into in that thread.

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post #994 of 2021 Old 06-12-2013, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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This fan actually has an 8" inlet/outlet, but you are correct that it's a bit small. However, a 12" duct wouldn't have been feasible anyway.

I can use my soffit at the back of the room as a duct to move around to a location with more space, but my issue is preventing the noise at the entrance to my room from reaching the grille or being audible through the soffit. I'm extremely space constrained on my soffit so sound isolation options are limited.

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post #995 of 2021 Old 06-12-2013, 03:37 PM
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When the HVAC guys came out to my house to check flow for stale air we get in the guest bedroom, they seemed surprised that we were only getting about half (maybe 60%?) of the flow out the registers that the math would suggest. My whole house is flex duct and they wanted to blame the loss on the box style junctions and splits the ducts were connected with, instead of "Y" fittings. I think they just were mostly ignorant of the losses that should be expected. Maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, I'm just saying that I bet you're well below 800 fpm. I know your setup is not as long and convoluted as mine, but I would be surprised if you were actually getting more than 650.

I think I'm going to use plywood and duct liner to build mufflers in my soffits. Terminating the duct about 4 feet short of my register boot should give some space for a baffle or two to absorb the sounds - no actual direction reversals, like you might see in automotive mufflers, just some baffles. Here's the solution Big and Morph1c came up with. http://www.avsforum.com/t/952113/black-cat-theater-now-going-big/120#post_22028590
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post #996 of 2021 Old 06-12-2013, 04:12 PM
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post #997 of 2021 Old 06-12-2013, 07:57 PM
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Ben said the design he & his HVAC contractor came up with worked well. He used mutiple 8" lines that dropped into a couple giant sound proofed plunums before entering the room. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416719/the-withrow-build-erskine-design-equipment-from-everywhere#post_22152399

 

 

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post #998 of 2021 Old 06-13-2013, 12:48 AM
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If you find that the fan is supplying too much air you could always go back and retrofit an in-line Y-fitting to dump the extra CFM in the equipment or other nearby room....kind-of like a redneck pressure relief valve for HVAC plenum. Just thinking out loud because you're right - the options you have available to get the right amount of non-turbulent air velocity are limited.
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post #999 of 2021 Old 06-13-2013, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

Ben said the design he & his HVAC contractor came up with worked well. He used mutiple 8" lines that dropped into a couple giant sound proofed plunums before entering the room. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416719/the-withrow-build-erskine-design-equipment-from-everywhere#post_22152399

Unfortunately, I've used about the only place I can that will give me some level of sound isolation. The only other option would be to run a duct the full length of the room and exit at the front, but with a 7" tall soffit, I'm pretty limited on the duct size that can fit in there. I'm not saying I won't do it, but it would certainly be a last resort.
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If you find that the fan is supplying too much air you could always go back and retrofit an in-line Y-fitting to dump the extra CFM in the equipment or other nearby room....kind-of like a redneck pressure relief valve for HVAC plenum. Just thinking out loud because you're right - the options you have available to get the right amount of non-turbulent air velocity are limited.

I was thinking of this as well. I need to ventilate my equipment room, anyway. I may just add another 8" duct near the inlet of my fan. I can adjust the flow by blocking the vent. I hate to because it sure kept things nice and cool in there while the drywall was being hung, but I've got to do something about the noise. I'll probably get my soffits up and see how much noise it's making then before I start tweaking anything. It looks like I'll be able to open my inlet up another inch as well which will help some.

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys!

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post #1000 of 2021 Old 06-14-2013, 12:28 PM
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Hey JPA - I saw this in another thread and I thought it could be handy for you in your quest to get your ducts under 250fpm. It's an online HVAC calculator: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ductwork-equations-d_883.html

By the way, 1000th post!!!

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post #1001 of 2021 Old 06-14-2013, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! I gave it a whirl. looks to be pretty close to my back of then envelope estimates. Of course, I'll use that link from now on because I won't have to dig out my calculator biggrin.gif

Wow! I feel like I've reached a milestone! 1000 posts in my humble thread!

I'd like to thank all the people that have helped make this possible.

  • George Washington
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  • and last, but not least, Mr. Spock.

smile.gif J/K! I appreciate all you guys following along and helping out!

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post #1002 of 2021 Old 06-30-2013, 07:57 PM
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About every two weeks, the air conditioner blows tumbleweed through here. That's when I post - just to make sure no one died in this ghost town. smile.gif
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post #1003 of 2021 Old 07-01-2013, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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biggrin.gif

I know, I know. TBH, I haven't even been down there in about two weeks. We had some family moving into their new home in town, and I spent a day helping them. Then there's all the usual summertime stuff I've been trying to keep up with as well. I'm hoping to get some time to get my door straightened out this week. After that, we should get to simpler items like building the soffits, stage, and riser. I'm dragging my feet a bit as well because I have to decide what I'm going to do about lighting. I have a GE3506, but I'm considering going with an RR2 setup instead. Decisions, decisions!

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post #1004 of 2021 Old 07-09-2013, 02:53 PM
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I came into this thread after a break expecting to see some progress.......




conan-i-am-disappoint1.jpg?w=300&h=225



* Note: I will delete this post when progress is presented biggrin.gif

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #1005 of 2021 Old 07-09-2013, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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When a single facepalm just isn't enough! smile.gif

I'll have to work on some pics for you guys. Believe it or not, I have done just a little, but I know better than make that claim without supporting evidence biggrin.gif So just don't read that last line until I get pictures up!

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post #1006 of 2021 Old 07-10-2013, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Well ladies and gentlemen, by popular demand, here's an update. First, I've got my threshold replaced. I need to stain it, but I'll have to find out what color stain was used on our floors first. Of course, by the time I get done with this little project, that whole landing may need to be stained again. it's certainly getting abused with all the construction traffic.

To add the threshold, I actually cut the door jambs to leave the gap that I needed at the bottom of my door first. I used a multi tool, and this left the door still attached and a wide gap at the bottom. That gave me a little more room to work, and let me run the threshold under the door jamb like it should have been to begin with. As mentioned above, I put a guide board down, and cut the ends of the hardwood square with a skill saw, and then finished up with the japanese pull saw. Once I had the new wood down, I cut the door loose from the framing with Sawzall, and set the door and frame down on the new wood. Plumbed it, and screwed it back into place. I still need to add shims (I forgot to pick them up when I stopped by HD), but that's no big deal.



I've also taken the time to put in an outlet at the front of the room. I decided to run it in conduit sense I will likely use this to power my subs if I decide to go with some higher powered sealed units. With that in mind, I went ahead and ran a 20 A circuit (I did not use the wire shown in the pic biggrin.gif ).



Sorry I don't have anything major to post. I missed a couple weeks, and as it stands now I'm only getting a couple hours a week to actually work down there. Hopefully I'll be able to find a little more time, though. Once I get my door shimmed and recaulked, I'll either start on my soffits, or start on my riser. I still need to decide if I will be selling my GE and going with RR2, or if I want to just go the easy route with the GE. Decisions, decisions, but I am anxious to get lights in there.

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post #1007 of 2021 Old 07-14-2013, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Another small step for The Plains Theater and one giant...... no..... no..... really just a small step. I got me ledger board up for my soffits on all three walls. I don't need one at the front since my soffit will not go all the way to the front wall. My bottom supports on the soffit (the ones perpendicular to the walls) will attach to the bottom of that ledger board. Generally I would have have put the ledger board where my drywall could attach to it along the edge, but the the way my channel worked out, it just wouldn't work. Also of interest, I tried to source the metal channel that BIG used in one of his builds, but again, I live in some sort of geographical oddity because no one has it, and they told me all their metal framing is being discontinued. So, it's standard 2x's for this project.

Also, I ended up using 3-1/2" coarse thread screws to attach my boards to the channel. I would have preferred 3-1/4", but no luck finding those. I've checked in several places, and while the screw point comes out even with the bottom of the channel, it doesn't go past it, so I should be fine. Here's some pics for proof. next up will be the 2x2's on the ceiling, then I'll finish the framing for it. After that, it's either lighting and electrical, or stage and riser. I have to decide on my lighting pretty soon. I've put it off about as much as I can.....



Here it is above the door. I also managed to get my door shimmed up and screwed in place. It doesn't fit as well as before, unfortunately. On the latch side, the gap goes from maybe 1/16"-1/8" at the top to somewhere between 1/8"-1/4" at the bottom. It's enough that you can see it if you are looking at it, but I don't think it's noticeable to anyone just using the door. The problem is my drywall comes to within 1/4" of the door frame on the theater side, so I can't get any shims in from that side. I had to put all the shims in from the outside and caused the frame to twist ever so slightly at the bottom. It was either cut out my drywall down there to get some shims in or, leave it. I decided to leave it. I may come back and plane the door down at the top since it might be just a shade too tight up there. We'll see.



And a pic of the wall opposite the door for good measure. A construction tip for those following along, I used my self leveling laser level again for this. I set it up on my ladder, and once I got it to the right height, it case a line around the room that made it much easier to set that ledger board. A self leveling laser level would be one of the first tools I would buy if I had to replace all of my tools tomorrow!

To hang each board, I drove two 3" screws into the line about 1/2" (not enough to go through the drywall) and set my board on top of those. That freed up my hands enough to drive the screws. Amazing what one man can do when he's motivated smile.gif



And lastly, I broke one of my rules! I bought some equipment for the theater. I told myself I would wait till the very end in hopes of keeping enough of my budget to actually finish the room. I figured I could always pick up equipment as I went along, but I really needed to get the room right. Well, I've been keeping an eye out for a few hard to find pieces, just in case, and a member here on AVS gave me a heads up on an A-lens. Well, it was too good a deal to pass up, so I sprang for it! I'm crazy excited about this thing! I didn't think I'd get to go with an A-lens right out the gate. I figured that would be one of those upgrades that would just have to wait. It's a C-stock lens, so it has some cosmetic issues, including a chip in the lens, but I called Panamorph, and sent them some pictures of it, and they assured me that everything was cosmetic. The chip is ugly, but it's well outside the light path! This lens has given me a much needed boost! I'm excited about making some progress again!


Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #1008 of 2021 Old 07-14-2013, 10:23 AM
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Nice looking lens! Did you get it from a private seller (ebay?) Which model is that?

That's a very exciting development, and good motivation, I'm sure.

Maybe you need to get a couple temporary lights in there and then work on the riser and whatnot while you make some final decisions on lighting.
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post #1009 of 2021 Old 07-14-2013, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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It's a UH480 that I got from eBay. Much nicer lens than I would have even hoped to get.

You're right about the riser. The only reason I'm agonizing over he lighting now is I'd like to go ahead and try to sell my GE if that's the route I go. I'm guessing it will take a couple weeks to sell my GE and get the new dimmers and controller in. Considering the pace that I've been moving lately, it's certainly no crisis smile.gif

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post #1010 of 2021 Old 07-24-2013, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Moving slow, but at least we're moving! I've started framing my soffits. Here's the side with the door. You can see I attached my 2x2 to the ceiling. I also added some additional blocking to the ceiling because I discovered that you can't tell if the screws are actually hitting the channel. They pull in just as well in the DW. So, I put in some blocking where I think my channel is to give everything a little more support.



Here's the side opposite the door. I've got most of the framing up, and you can see the light tray starting to take shape. I may come back and add some blocking between each vertical, but I'm not convinced it's necessary. I'm trying to weigh keeping it light weight vs. making it more rigid. I think once I put the DW on the bottom, it's going to stiffen everything up quite nicely.



I'm struggling with my lighting layout. I've got another thread going there with some excellent feedback! Still a few things to iron out. As far as the soffit design goes, I added a light tray wide enough for a 4" accent light. I'm glad I went and bought one first because the tabs that hold it in have forced me to make my light tray wider than I had planned. Better now than later, though smile.gif The good side to this is once I add my molding around the light tray, it may completely conceal the vertical framing, in which case I can just stuff it with insulation, and leave it open (we can hope, anyway biggrin.gif ).

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post #1011 of 2021 Old 07-24-2013, 04:41 PM
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I'm glad you're working through all of the light spacing and light tray design... cause I need to do that next too. Hopefully your trials and tribulations will save me some headaches!
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post #1012 of 2021 Old 07-24-2013, 05:01 PM
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Work looks good - and I didn't even have to bump your thread (I almost did the other day)!
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The good side to this is once I add my molding around the light tray, it may completely conceal the vertical framing, in which case I can just stuff it with insulation, and leave it open (we can hope, anyway biggrin.gif ).
Do you have all those dimensions nailed down already? It would seem that a quick drawing will confirm sight lines into the open space, if you know how tall the molding is, etc. And if it's too short, you could consider adding a partial block at the ceiling edge only, if you really want to keep it open. (That only makes sense if I'm visualizing what you're planning correctly... which brings me back to the drawing. smile.gif )
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post #1013 of 2021 Old 07-24-2013, 05:17 PM
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The housing on your can lights must not be very tall. That's a pretty short soffit.
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post #1014 of 2021 Old 07-24-2013, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xjagox View Post

I'm glad you're working through all of the light spacing and light tray design... cause I need to do that next too. Hopefully your trials and tribulations will save me some headaches!

Glad I can help biggrin.gif I suspect the easiest way to figure all this out is to just get some lamps and put them up temporarily to see how they look. Unfortunately, I have so little time to actually work in my theater that I'd much rather figure it out ahead of time so that I can actually do something productive in the theater when I get a chance. I think I'm pretty close, though.
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Work looks good - and I didn't even have to bump your thread (I almost did the other day)!
Do you have all those dimensions nailed down already? It would seem that a quick drawing will confirm sight lines into the open space, if you know how tall the molding is, etc. And if it's too short, you could consider adding a partial block at the ceiling edge only, if you really want to keep it open. (That only makes sense if I'm visualizing what you're planning correctly... which brings me back to the drawing. smile.gif )

I have the dimensions of the soffit finalized, but I have not picked out a trim profile. I'm trying to eliminate variables smile.gif The height of my soffit is set by my door. After that, I had to find a light that would work in that much space, and so on. Anyway, I need to pick out a rope light so I can do some testing to see how tall my molding can be and still get good illumination on the ceiling. Do you have one of those in mind? smile.gif

Here's a sketch of the soffit as it stands now with a few dimensions for reference. I think you're actually asking about an in-room drawing, but I don't have one handy. I may try to add that to my model just to see what pops out.


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The housing on your can lights must not be very tall. That's a pretty short soffit.

It's looking like I'll be using BIG's current favorite 4" accent light. It's the Utilitech, old work, accent can. It's only about 4-1/2" tall, so I've actually got a little room. It's shorter than the 3" version, oddly enough, because the box is off to the side rather than on top. BTW, any suggestions on whether to use the gimbal version or the fixed?


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post #1015 of 2021 Old 07-24-2013, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I have the dimensions of the soffit finalized, but I have not picked out a trim profile. I'm trying to eliminate variables smile.gif The height of my soffit is set by my door. After that, I had to find a light that would work in that much space, and so on. ...I think you're actually asking about an in-room drawing, but I don't have one handy. I may try to add that to my model just to see what pops out.
Right - you probably see the situation more clearly than I do, but just to be clear - I think the issue is how far back would a tall person (say with his/her eyes 6 feet off the ground) have to stand to be able to look above the molding and see anything but the ceiling. If the answer is farther than the opposite wall, you're good. If the answer is more than 10 feet, you're probably still good - but it's a judgement call. And like I was saying earlier, you might get away with just trimming out the top of the opening: bringing down the top edge of the opening 2 inches has the same effect as raising the molding two inches in terms of being able to see the opening.
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post #1016 of 2021 Old 07-24-2013, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Because everything is so cramped, I may just put some blocking down to the same height as my trim. Now that I'm thinking about it, my trim will have to come up at least 4" to hide the can lights. It may end up being more trouble than it's worth to leave the soffit open.

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post #1017 of 2021 Old 07-25-2013, 07:18 AM
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I thought I saw a post asking about the gimbal lights. My opinion is to use them only where necessary. A normal light has the bulb recessed into the trim to focus the light wash downward. The gimbal sits right at the surface and, if you aren't using the tilt function to direct the light, throws a heck of a lot more light in every direction. Probably not optimal for your installation. The best use of gimbals I've seen in a theater install aside from screen washers is to illuminate acoustic panels between columns. It really helped illuminate the detail in the fabric they used which had a nice effect. As always, just my two cents...
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post #1018 of 2021 Old 07-25-2013, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I thought I saw a post asking about the gimbal lights. My opinion is to use them only where necessary. A normal light has the bulb recessed into the trim to focus the light wash downward. The gimbal sits right at the surface and, if you aren't using the tilt function to direct the light, throws a heck of a lot more light in every direction. Probably not optimal for your installation. The best use of gimbals I've seen in a theater install aside from screen washers is to illuminate acoustic panels between columns. It really helped illuminate the detail in the fabric they used which had a nice effect. As always, just my two cents...

That you did, sir. I moved it to the other thread, but I'll post a link back to your post.

Good info, as always. I'm glad I asked. I was thinking of using the gimbals because they look "smoother" across the face. Sounds like gimbals for the screen wash and regulars elsewhere, then.

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post #1019 of 2021 Old 07-25-2013, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Thought I would post my electrical plan for posterity's sake. I'm open to comment on this as well! Feedback is always welcome. I will say that my first priority was no holes in the walls. Hence, most of the receptacles are in the riser. I was hoping to get away with fewer, but a call to my inspector nixed that. Gotta follow code regardless of the habitability of the space frown.gif Oh well. Being in the floor, next to the wall, I don't think they'll be too noticeable. The receptacles in the middle and on the face of the riser are for the seating.


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post #1020 of 2021 Old 07-25-2013, 08:20 AM
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Don't forget about soffit/ceiling outlets for your rope lights and projector.

Did you consider floor mounting the 3 outlets currently shown above your stage? It looks like you are trying to minimize drywall penetrations.

Any plans for low voltage boxes (ethernet on the riser face or at the bar)?

Are your columns deep enough where you could place the outlet on the side of the column rather than in the floor?
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