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post #1171 of 1998 Old 08-24-2013, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Sadly, there are no 4" IC rated remodel cans that I've been able to find. Plenty IC rated new construction, and I've even found a low profile IC rated 5" remodel can, but I'm afraid the mounting tabs won't fit in the area that I have. It being $30/can also doesn't help. I only have about 7-1/2" of mounting surface to work with, which is too narrow for many of the new construction lights.

I think I have a solution, though. I went to Lowes this morning and looked at some of the lights. The 3" accent can specifically states that it requires 3" to insulation and 1/2" to combustibles/framing, and it's less than $10. It's a little taller, but I think it will work. The down side is the connection box is tiny, and they only come in a gimbal type.

Let me dig in my receipts......

I used 4'' remodel cans that were IC rated and fit your description...............not $30 a can either from memory.

I believe I used these.....

http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/4%22+housings.html#.Uhj_Nj90mGM
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post #1172 of 1998 Old 08-24-2013, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the link! For some reason Google let me down on that one. I spent a couple hours looking for a 4" IC remodel can, but never found that one.

That said, I think I found a cheaper solution. Home Depot has a 3" can with a normal recessed trim that's only $12. It's not quite as shallow as the popular 4" can that's used by BIG, but this one has a bit larger box than the 3" Lowes can, and also specifies the 1/2" clearance from combustibles. I like this option because it comes with the fixture, the trim ring, and a bulb all for $12. Just have to paint the 'em!

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post #1173 of 1998 Old 08-25-2013, 05:15 AM
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^^^^^ - that's the same fixture I picked out for my theater. You can't beat the all-in-one price, that's for sure.

Your theater is large enough that you could probably make a strong argument for going with the additional lumen output and beam propagation of the 4" that BIG used...but on the other hand, the lights will be off or severely dimmed most of the time. I guess your actual internal soffit height will dictate what you have to choose.
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post #1174 of 1998 Old 08-25-2013, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Thanks for the link! For some reason Google let me down on that one. I spent a couple hours looking for a 4" IC remodel can, but never found that one.

That said, I think I found a cheaper solution. Home Depot has a 3" can with a normal recessed trim that's only $12. It's not quite as shallow as the popular 4" can that's used by BIG, but this one has a bit larger box than the 3" Lowes can, and also specifies the 1/2" clearance from combustibles. I like this option because it comes with the fixture, the trim ring, and a bulb all for $12. Just have to paint the 'em!

Isn't that can non-IC? I looked at the very same one and visited store after I failed electrical...................just asking.

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post #1175 of 1998 Old 08-25-2013, 09:00 AM
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Yes. You can use non-ic in this application, you just have to keep the insulation a minimum of 3" away, which is not hard to do.


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post #1176 of 1998 Old 08-25-2013, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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TMcG beat me to it. The issue I ran into is spacing to combustibles (wood framing) rather than issues with keeping the insulation away. These cans specify a minimum clear distance of 1/2" to wood framing which is plenty. The 4" cans did not provide that spec, and only listed the 3" to insulation. I suspect they would be fine, but at the very least I have documentation with the 3" can to show the inspector when it's time for my inspection.

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post #1177 of 1998 Old 08-25-2013, 12:33 PM
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I have those very same lights in my theater. They are very nice and a huge upgrade from what I had even at 12 dollars each. I spray painted them with This and they are perfect. That paint is really flat too so there are no reflections other than the glass bulb. If you do not want any reflections, you will need to get another light with the bulbs recessed inside the cans. At first I noticed it probably because I was looking at it, but now I never notice it at all.
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post #1178 of 1998 Old 08-25-2013, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

TMcG beat me to it. The issue I ran into is spacing to combustibles (wood framing) rather than issues with keeping the insulation away. These cans specify a minimum clear distance of 1/2" to wood framing which is plenty. The 4" cans did not provide that spec, and only listed the 3" to insulation. I suspect they would be fine, but at the very least I have documentation with the 3" can to show the inspector when it's time for my inspection.

Oh........gotcha.......

Cans I used have zero clearance due to adjacent 2 X 4's in soffit..............seems you are good to go.

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post #1179 of 1998 Old 08-26-2013, 03:12 PM
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Non-IC cans are required to have a 1/2" clearance to combustible construction per NEC 410.116. IC cans have no clearance requirement.

Tim

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post #1180 of 1998 Old 08-26-2013, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought there was a code requirement. When in doubt, ask Mr. Tim smile.gif

My concern was the manufacturer did not build the can to meet the 1/2" requirement but only the 3" spec. I doubt that would be the case just from a liability standpoint, but I figured better safe than sorry.

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post #1181 of 1998 Old 08-26-2013, 04:22 PM
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Yeah, per code a non-IC can must be 1/2" to combustible and 3" to insulation. IC can is 0" clearance.

Seems like a simple issue, but it is confusing due to mfr vagueness. I have my doubts as to the Lightolier IC remodel can. The sell sheets says IC/Non-IC, but I would definitely call them to confirm.

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post #1182 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I just made a SWAG at the amount of sand I'd need to fill my stage and came up with about 115 fifty pound bags eek.gif

I think I may stop the sand-filled part at the screen! That would get it down to closer to 80 bags.

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post #1183 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 07:14 PM
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115 bags? That's only (about) two yards - not even a full dump truck! I'm sure you need at least twice that. wink.gif
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post #1184 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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115 bags? That's only (about) two yards - not even a full dump truck! I'm sure you need at least twice that. wink.gif

Fred, were you a motivational speaker in a past life? Just curious!

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post #1185 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 07:23 PM
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I know your room is a good bit wider than mine, but I'm coming up with less than half that. (totally rounded estimates lead to high forties number of 50lb bags.)

What overall dimensions are you working from?

Edit - I was using too small a dimension when I multiplied mine out. My estimate for completely filled is probably more like 70-80 bags. So 115 would probably be right on, for my methodology and your dimensions, since your room is near 50% wider than mine.


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post #1186 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 07:23 PM
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Fred, were you a motivational speaker in a past life? Just curious!
No, but I did, for a while, live in a van down by the river!


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post #1187 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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No, but I did, for a while, live in a van down by the river!

I was expecting, "No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night." But I think van by the river is probably more fitting smile.gif
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I know your room is a good bit wider than mine, but I'm coming up with less than half that. (totally rounded estimates lead to high forties number of 50lb bags.)

What overall dimensions are you working from?

Here's a quick model. Dimensions are rough, but this is ballpark. I was figuring 14.5" for each bay (16" OC framing) by 11.25" tall by 3'-6" deep. Maybe my maths are wrong......



14.5 x 11.25 x 42 = 6,851 in^3 per bay
6851 = 4 ft^3 per bay

Approximately 13.7 bays in 18' so

4 x 13.7 = 54.8 ft^3

and each bag of sand is 0.5 ft^3 I think, so

54.8 / 0.5 = 110 bags

Please tell me I'm doing something wrong smile.gif

I really don't see any reason to fill the part of the stage in front of the screen, though. That cuts it down from 3'9" to 2'-6" which helps quite a bit.

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post #1188 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 08:00 PM
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I've got bad news: you're not doing anything wrong. (best I can tell) I think the better technique for estimating is going to be comparing to other theaters. NYGFAN needed about 60. Bacon Race used 72 (scroll up for dimensions). I'm sure there are other good sources of comparison, but this is probably enough to establish "normal" but obviously I have low standards for statistical significance.


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post #1189 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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That's what I was afraid of. I've been looking around at the other theaters, and thought 115 was high. I guess I'll start with 80 bags and see where that gets me. This is making my back hurt already smile.gif

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post #1190 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 08:18 PM
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Please tell me I'm doing something wrong smile.gif

No, I think you're pretty close. 2.75 tons sounds about right. Remember, lift with your legs. smile.gif
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post #1191 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 08:23 PM
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Does a wheel barrow fit through a standard door?

And when can we expect to see you haul all this sand? (It's been two weeks since you posted the progress on the soffits ::cracks whip:: )
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post #1192 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I can always count on you guys for support smile.gif

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post #1193 of 1998 Old 08-27-2013, 08:35 PM
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I did the same stage design and my dimensions are similar. I ended up over calculating mine by a wide margin so I can't help you with an exact formula. However, I can tell you that my stage is 15' x 4'10'' with a "sunset cinema" curve just like yours. I did not fill my lower step with sand. I used right around 100 of the 50 lb bags of play sand. They stored it inside at my local HD. I paid the $60 delivery fee for them to bring it to my house. Otherwise it would have been multiple trips because we are talking about 5000 lbs here. They do not take it inside for you of course.

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post #1194 of 1998 Old 08-28-2013, 06:48 AM
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As you may know, I went through the same exercise (calculations, not sand bag hauling) and ended up deciding against the filling of the stage with sand.

I think I have designed around this cheat based on my understanding of what the sand offers in the overall function of the stage. And I think that is what we have to focus on because the stage has both a cosmetic as well as a functional aspect. Obviously if we all designed our spaces without stages and simply placed all of our "stuff" like speakers, subs, screen walls, acoustic tools, etc. on the floor, there would be no talk of Motrin or dump trucks. But if there are functional aspects of a stage, we need to figure out what they are and if there are other methods of accomplishing the same net end result.

So, I'm curious if you can enumerate the functional elements of your stage which dictates sand filling to maximize its performance in fulfilling these objectives? It's still not too late for me to change my mind on the sand! I've got a full bottle of Motrin in my cupboard!


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post #1195 of 1998 Old 08-28-2013, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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......
So, I'm curious if you can enumerate the functional elements of your stage which dictates sand filling to maximize its performance in fulfilling these objectives? It's still not too late for me to change my mind on the sand! I've got a full bottle of Motrin in my cupboard!

I'm using sand primarily for the sound deadening characteristics. I'm not sure where I read this (or maybe I'm just making it up), but I seem to remember that one advantage to using sand is it is excellent at absorbing sound. Think about hitting a pile of sand with a frying pan or bat. It deforms and dissipates the energy extremely well. Compare that to something like insulation that will surely dissipate some of the energy, but at lower frequencies I'm not sure 12" thick will provide much impact.

Why is it important to dissipate that energy? Well, I'm not sure exactly. Obviously it can't hurt for soundproofing, but I would guess it helps to have a very solid surface for your subs to rest on. By adding the sand you're also making a very massive structure.

Again, take all that with a grain of salt.

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post #1196 of 1998 Old 08-28-2013, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Does a wheel barrow fit through a standard door?

And when can we expect to see you haul all this sand? (It's been two weeks since you posted the progress on the soffits ::cracks whip:: )

Well, since you asked for it smile.gif I have been doing a little when I get a chance. First I cleaned up! It needed it badly. I also finished some odds and ends on the soffit framing by adding some blocking along the bottom to attach DW to, and I also finished the framing for the front soffit. I started adding some of the DW to the bottom as well. Once I finish with that, I'll be able to put in my can lights and start wiring those.



I added some of the final drywall to the bottom of my return vent as well. Sadly, it does not contain the noise frown.gif



I've also added Linacoustic to the return vent. You'll notice I only added it to the top, and one side for most of the vent. I want to maintain as much cross-sectional area as possible, and I believe damping the two orthogonal faces should provide the desired effect. You can see at the bottom of the picture that the vent will open up into a large final chamber that will be around 6' x 3'. Again, hoping to slow everything down before it gets to the vent face. We'll see if you can still hear the noise from the duct at the diffusor once everything is buttoned up.



With the conclusion that the soffit won't contain the noise, I decided it's time to do some surgery on the dead vent. Here's a before shot from when I put it in



And here's the current state of things while I wait on my register boot.



I also had to cut a couple holes in my equipment room ceiling to relocate a conduit and add another. This was a brain fart on my part. I ran my conduit for my PJ to where I thought I was planning to put my equipment rack. Then I decided to move my rack.... D'oh! Not sure what I was thinking by leaving the second conduit out.



I may get a chance to work on the theater this weekend. If I do, I'll probably try to finish up the DW on the bottom of the soffits and start on my riser and stage. I'll have to get the riser roughed in, and all my wiring run in there before I can do my electrical inspection. Of course, there's still the issue of finalizing my lighting plan as well. I'm really leaning towards RA2 at this point, which means I'll need to sale my GE. I'm also waiting on some samples before I finalize the lighting in my soffits. I've got high hopes for that, but we'll just have to see how it works out.

And finally. I have to start on a plan for a hush box. It's been brought to my attention that if I'm going to try to use a 12' or larger screen, I'm going to have to turn the wick up on my PJ. Unfortunately, that means added fan noise as well.

I guess I should post progress more often so I don't end up with these epic posts smile.gif

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post #1197 of 1998 Old 08-28-2013, 03:22 PM
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Is this the way these two images fit together?



And I'm very interested in any designs you develop for a hush box. Do you have a list of resources you'll draw from, or is this a "from scratch" sort of project?


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post #1198 of 1998 Old 08-28-2013, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post


I'm using sand primarily for the sound deadening characteristics. I'm not sure where I read this (or maybe I'm just making it up), but I seem to remember that one advantage to using sand is it is excellent at absorbing sound. Think about hitting a pile of sand with a frying pan or bat. It deforms and dissipates the energy extremely well. Compare that to something like insulation that will surely dissipate some of the energy, but at lower frequencies I'm not sure 12" thick will provide much impact.

Why is it important to dissipate that energy? Well, I'm not sure exactly. Obviously it can't hurt for soundproofing, but I would guess it helps to have a very solid surface for your subs to rest on. By adding the sand you're also making a very massive structure.

Again, take all that with a grain of salt.

 

Or a grain of sand....

 

I think you hit it right on the head.  As a sound absorber, it seems like a great solution.  Cheap, non-toxic, and non-permanent.  But I assume you are talking about absorbing sound so that it doesn't go elsewhere (i.e. through your floor into your family room below, for example).  I don't think you'd actually want to absorb sound "in the room" as it were.  You just use the volume knob for that!  And I would have to agree that it does provide a great, stable, non-resonating platform for speakers.

 

Is your setup in your basement?  If so, there is nothing below it but dirt (assuming you are not in a beach house on stilts).  

 

And if it is in your basement, I am going to assume it has a concrete slab which also would provide a nice stable, non-resonating platform for speakers.  

 

So for me, since my setup is in the basement, I just moved my speakers off the stage and onto the concrete slab.

 

Now, if you mean that sound absorption as in "tuning" the room, that is a whole 'nother matter.  I didn't feel confident that the effects of the specific volume of sand required to fill the stage framing would necessarily equal any particular magic metric that would effectively "tune" a room.  But that is probably just my relative lack of sophisticated knowledge in these things.

 

Then you just have to make sure that the stage doesn't end up having a detrimental effect on the acoustics of the room.  I guess I bought into the concept that a sealed box like that could somehow act as a "drum" and resonate.  I don't know if there are other possible detrimental effects that a stage could make?

 

All great things to think about.  As we used to say, things that make you go "Hmmmm"....



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post #1199 of 1998 Old 08-28-2013, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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You got it! That's how they fit! I forget that everyone isn't intimately familiar with how everything is laid out in my room.

As far as the hush box goes, I have some ideas, and there are some designs that I've seen that I like, but I need to go back and dig them up. Moggie's hush box comes to mind as a nice one, and space allowing, I'll probably use some form of Nick's bass isolation platform.

There are some other issues to work through as well associated with the PJ height, the A-lens, lens shift, etc. Then there's the obvious stuff to do with with adding some fans and a isolated vent to block the noise. Then I have to make it look nice..... Wow, there's a lot to this smile.gif

I'll try to dig up some links this evening when I'm on my computer.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!


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post #1200 of 1998 Old 08-28-2013, 03:58 PM
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And here's the current state of things while I wait on my register boot.

Does this mean you are having some ductwork custom-fabbed??


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