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post #1261 of 2002 Old 09-07-2013, 06:10 AM
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It actually is a GRX-3106 I have all 3100 series and one 3500 series, no QS. It's simply the first up click on any given zone. It takes 37 clicks of the individual zone raise / lower to go from fully off to fully on. Assuming a linear increase, that's an increase of 2.7% per button press.

Maybe I have the zones types configured wrong. I will have to check, thanks!

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post #1262 of 2002 Old 09-09-2013, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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First things, first. I really appreciate each of you taking the time to comment in my thread! It does help keep the motivation up knowing I'm not the only one looking at the pictures I post. The feedback is also a huge help because it's easy for my OCD to make some of the design decisions impossible for me. So, each of you give yourselves a hand smile.gif

Now, I got a little delivery today.


That's a calibrated USB mic. Here's where I got it from. Each mic is individually calibrated. That little silver USB drive is the cal file for my mic. Not the same cal file for all bajillion of these mics. I believe I read somewhere that these things are pretty close anyway, but it's only a few extra dollars compared to PE to have one individually calibrated. So, why not?

The beauty of the USB mic is it simplifies the process a bit. No more external power supply needed. My Mac picked it up with no issues. The current beta of REW supports USB mics as well as HDMI output for 8 channel calibration. This should greatly simplify the setup process.

I'll try to work through REW in the next few nights to get everything calibrated and see if I can take a measurement or two of my fan using the RTA function. Hopefully it will help narrow down the issue. I tried it with the built in mic on my laptop, but the fan noise is not much above the noise floor in the room/computer, so I'm not too optimistic. But I was planning to get one of these anyway if for no other reason than to keep my calibrator honest when I get around to a pro calibration.

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post #1263 of 2002 Old 09-09-2013, 02:51 PM
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Sounds like you are well aware of the noise floor issues, but a couple comments anyway. Be aware that the noise floor in you room and the noise floor of the measurement gear are different. We need to see the noise with and without the fan running. Also be aware of electrical hum - I'm sure you'd recognize the 60hz spike.

Looking forward to it!


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post #1264 of 2002 Old 09-09-2013, 03:53 PM
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Actually, the only noise floor the calibrators are concerned with is with all systems on and engaged - the projector, HVAC, ventilation fans, etc. That's the way THX certifies a room.
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post #1265 of 2002 Old 09-09-2013, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Actually, the only noise floor the calibrators are concerned with is with all systems on and engaged - the projector, HVAC, ventilation fans, etc. That's the way THX certifies a room.

TMcG, I think the point Fred is after is we are trying to isolate a particular noise source. So we need a baseline to compare without the fan and with the fan to see if we can decide if it's due to the fan or some resonant response.

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post #1266 of 2002 Old 09-09-2013, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Well. First measurements out of REW. I have on idea if I've set this up correctly, but I believe i loaded my mic cal file, and I just used the RTA to look at the noise spectrum. I actually had to take these in my equipment closet because the fan noise was down into the noise floor. TBH, in room with the door closed I initially had a hard time hearing the noise over my laptop fan, but once I picked it out, it's sort of all I could hear if that makes sense to anyone. Measurements showed that whatever this noise is was down in the noise in room.

Without further ado,



Purple trace is with the fan OFF. Black trace is with the fan ON. Again, these are in the equipment closet, and I used a 32 point average to try to get some of the fuzz out of the noise.

I'm still chewing on this, but I thought I'd see what the group thinks. My first impression is there are some obvious peaks, and some broadband noise down below 400 Hz. I still have the dimmer connected, so I believe some of the higher frequency peaks are just motor hum.

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post #1267 of 2002 Old 09-09-2013, 07:43 PM
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This is not what I expected. Can you post the purple trace by itself, just so I can see the detail that may be obscured by the black trace? I don't think the single-frequency spikes are significant, because I doubt they are audible, but I'd be interested in seeing anyway. I'll have more thoughts in a little while.


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post #1268 of 2002 Old 09-09-2013, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Purple trace only - Fan Off



Black trace only - Fan On



I was hoping to see a single tone somewhere below 400 Hz. This is not a loud noise, but because it's low frequency and persistent it's easy to pick out. I've been trying to think of something to compare it to, but I'm drawing a blank. Maybe a quiet refrigerator or something like that. It reminds me quite a bit of our dehumidifier, which I can hear two floors down. It's not loud at all, and I can only hear it in a quiet room, but once I hear it, it's hard to "un-hear". You can hear it because it's out of place I suppose.

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post #1269 of 2002 Old 09-09-2013, 08:41 PM
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I don't want to come off as "the guy" to give an answer here - certainly my opinion is just one guy's. I hope you get more feedback from others, even if it's just to say that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Well. Good news is that you can hardly hear it in the theater with the door closed. I know that's comparing it to the laptop fan, which is not the point here. I assume you haven't changed your opinion about it being troublesome and worthy of some effort to eliminate.

If we were to subtract out the noise floor from the measurement (which I don't think REW can do, but might be worth checking into), it looks like we've got pretty flat additional 10dB extra noise from 20 all the way to about 150Hz, then tapering steadily to no additional noise by 5-600Hz. Then there are the very narrow spikes at 48, 59, 120 (maybe), and then a cluster in the mid-200Hz range, and then again in the mid-300Hz range and more further up. I think we should consider these two sets of differences separately - basically because my assumption is that they have different sources and solutions.

I think the broad increase below 150 is just turbulence. I suspect it is basically the same as Morph1c's noise. The only thing that I think would be interesting or perhaps diagnostically significant is if you could - by moving the mic around carefully - locate the source of the sound. I imagine you have sealed much of the dead vent back up, and you can't get the mic right up to the duct, but maybe you can say it's coming from within the dead vent or from within the soffit or ???

The higher frequency spikes are curious. I'm still dubious that they're audible, but it occurred to me that they might all be the same noise - either structural or mechanical vibration and its harmonics, or maybe just errant noise. I assumed you were watching the spectrum to see that it was steady and then took the screen shot while it was - so that there's no way someone happened to jump off the bed upstairs or slam a door or something just as you were collecting the data. Working under the assumption that it's mechanical, can you reach in and grab the fan motor housing and damp it with your hand? If not, maybe the wall of the dead vent - lean up against it with your whole body. I would be interested to see if that could bring down that noise.

For your own further education, and ours, what does the spectrum of noise from the dehumidifier look like?
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post #1270 of 2002 Old 09-09-2013, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Several of those items I think we're on the same page about. After thinking about it a bit, I think I need to take a couple more measurements with the fan speed adjusted down. That will change the motor "hum" and help isolate which peaks are due to the fan controller I'm using. I suppose another set of in-room measurements would do the same thing since I can't hear the motor hum inside the room. The remaining spikes - whichever they may be - I believe will be the culprit for the noise.

So far I've neglected mechanical noise because there is no discernible vibration with my hand on the fan. However, I think we're to the point where I need to investigate it further. If it saves me the time and trouble of having to swap the fans, then it's definitely worth it. I may try some rubber isolators on the mounting points, or possibly try to suspend the fan like Morph1c did. For a first pass, I'll see if I can try your suggestion. These levels are so low, that any movement - e.g. shuffling my feet - completely swamps everything else shown in the RTA.

The spikes are definitely related to the fan noise. I used a 32 point average for these plots, so any spurious spikes would have been averaged out.

BTW, I like this whole measurement business. For now at least smile.gif It's certainly a useful tool to have in my toolbox.

EDIT: I"ll try to get these extra measurements as well as the dehumidifier tomorrow. I also need to check those LEDs with a Skylark dimmer to see if I'll be happy with the dimming range available with the Lutron dimmers.

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post #1271 of 2002 Old 09-10-2013, 01:58 AM
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TMcG, I think the point Fred is after is we are trying to isolate a particular noise source. So we need a baseline to compare without the fan and with the fan to see if we can decide if it's due to the fan or some resonant response.

Ah...gotcha....that makes sense. Strong evidence that I should be kept away from sharp objects and AVS Forum when I'm floating on 2.5 hours of sleep the night before....Carry on! biggrin.gif
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post #1272 of 2002 Old 09-10-2013, 04:40 AM
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So far I've neglected mechanical noise because there is no discernible vibration with my hand on the fan. However, I think we're to the point where I need to investigate it further. If it saves me the time and trouble of having to swap the fans, then it's definitely worth it. I may try some rubber isolators on the mounting points, or possibly try to suspend the fan like Morph1c did. For a first pass, I'll see if I can try your suggestion. These levels are so low, that any movement - e.g. shuffling my feet - completely swamps everything else shown in the RTA.


I used soft rubber isolators on mine to reduce the amount of drone detectable in the downstairs room which they are mounted above. This reduced the noise to a lower level but I can still hear them when I'm downstairs under them. Not a big deal for me since I cant hear them in the theater.

Check out sorbothane if your wanting to go all out with vibration contol. Its pricey but supposed to work well. Make sure you pick the ones rated for the correct weight and get the softest ones possible to absorb the lowest frequencies.
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post #1273 of 2002 Old 09-10-2013, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting about the drone. That certainly sounds a lot like what I'm dealing with. My fan is in the adjacent room. What's interesting is I don't really hear the droning when I put me ear to the drywall in my theater, I don't hear the noise coming through the drywall. It has to be following the duct, or at least entering through the duct penetration.

I wonder how well those sorbothane mounts work for a vertically installed object? I can see how they would work for something just resting on them, but not sure about how well they will work in shear.

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post #1274 of 2002 Old 09-10-2013, 08:29 AM
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Maybe an IB-3 or something. Call Ted?


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post #1275 of 2002 Old 09-10-2013, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I actually have several IB-3s leftover. I've been trying to figure out how to make it work. I think a 3db drop would be enough to make it inaudible in the theater. I know, I know, that's cutting it in half, but still.

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to get this fan working. I have most of my soffit finished with the exception of a small strip that is currently acting as the vent, and there is NO wind noise with the register closed in the equipment room. That means it's pulling nearly all the air from the theater with no audible wind noise.

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post #1276 of 2002 Old 09-10-2013, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

First things, first. I really appreciate each of you taking the time to comment in my thread! It does help keep the motivation up knowing I'm not the only one looking at the pictures I post. The feedback is also a huge help because it's easy for my OCD to make some of the design decisions impossible for me. So, each of you give yourselves a hand smile.gif

Now, I got a little delivery today.


That's a calibrated USB mic. Here's where I got it from. Each mic is individually calibrated. That little silver USB drive is the cal file for my mic. Not the same cal file for all bajillion of these mics. I believe I read somewhere that these things are pretty close anyway, but it's only a few extra dollars compared to PE to have one individually calibrated. So, why not?

The beauty of the USB mic is it simplifies the process a bit. No more external power supply needed. My Mac picked it up with no issues. The current beta of REW supports USB mics as well as HDMI output for 8 channel calibration. This should greatly simplify the setup process.

I'll try to work through REW in the next few nights to get everything calibrated and see if I can take a measurement or two of my fan using the RTA function. Hopefully it will help narrow down the issue. I tried it with the built in mic on my laptop, but the fan noise is not much above the noise floor in the room/computer, so I'm not too optimistic. But I was planning to get one of these anyway if for no other reason than to keep my calibrator honest when I get around to a pro calibration.


I received mine today too....................I'm right in the middle of setting up. Just stopped by to see what's happening.

Cross-Spectrum mic huh? Now I have someone to question while I'm tripping over myself! biggrin.gif

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post #1277 of 2002 Old 09-10-2013, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I received mine today too....................I'm right in the middle of setting up. Just stopped by to see what's happening.

Cross-Spectrum mic huh? Now I have someone to question while I'm tripping over myself! biggrin.gif

I hope you're not relying on me for REW support. That would be the blind leading the blind my friend smile.gif

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post #1278 of 2002 Old 09-10-2013, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Time for more plots. I took a couple more readings this evening. The two below are probably the most interesting. The first is another with the fan on high



The next is with the fan turned all the way down to low speed. There is no audible rumble, but the motor hum is still readily apparent.



While there is not a one-to-one correlation between the peaks between the two plots, generally speaking I would say the motor hum seems to be responsible for most of the peaks. That said, it would seem that the rumble I am hearing is responsible for the broadband noise I'm seeing. It would certainly seem reasonable as I would describe it as a low frequency noise.

Any thoughts? Oh. I did call Ted today, but he was out of the office. I'll try again tomorrow.


BTW, I did test the LEDs on a Skylark dimmer, which is on the Lutron approved dimmer list. Significantly better dimming range! Still not great, but a huge improvement over what I was seeing before. I'd say the Lutron report card is pretty accurate. I'd describe it as dimming from 100% down to less than 50%. Considering my limited options, I think I can live with this. I don't envision these four lights being on much anyway. I'm planning to have a couple scenes with these lights used as task lighting directly over the seating, or maybe on during a football game.

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post #1279 of 2002 Old 09-11-2013, 04:30 AM
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Time for more plots. I took a couple more readings this evening. The two below are probably the most interesting. The first is another with the fan on high

Can you take a measurement with the fans off, then overlay the two?

Also, I think you should be measuring SPL, not phase+SPL. Click the "All SPL" button above the graph in REW. Then you know what your noise floor is.

Tim
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post #1280 of 2002 Old 09-11-2013, 05:26 AM
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...the motor hum seems to be responsible for most of the peaks. ...the rumble I am hearing is responsible for the broadband noise
That's the conclusion I'm coming to as well. I'm still assuming the rumble is turbulence related to changes in velocity/diameter - thoughts on that?
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post #1281 of 2002 Old 09-11-2013, 05:46 AM
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The 120Hz peak is not part of the problem. It is coming from something else. See your RTA above the same 120Hz peak appears even when the fans are off.

The peaks in the 250-400Hz region are likely air turbulence noise.

The drone your hearing is the increased energy in the 40-120Hz region when fans are on.

Yes, do overlays and change the Y axis to dbs.

Show overlays with fan off, on high, and on low setting.

Always measure with REW on battery power, never with the power supply connected to the laptop.
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post #1282 of 2002 Old 09-11-2013, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Mr. Tim and Nick,

I'm not sure why I couldn't figure out how to combine the figures before. Here we go.

This is the fan OFF plus the fan ON HIGH



This is the fan ON LOW plus the fan ON HIGH



And here is the fan ON LOW plus the fan OFF



Nick,

I'm not sure how to change the vertical axis. Do I have to do this while I'm taking measurements? Also, these were taken while on battery power, but that's a good bit of info to file away for sure!

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post #1283 of 2002 Old 09-11-2013, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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That's the conclusion I'm coming to as well. I'm still assuming the rumble is turbulence related to changes in velocity/diameter - thoughts on that?

Fred, I'm not sure. It certainly sounds reasonable, but I would expect a greater change in the noise when I vary the amount of air going to the equipment room. There is certainly a difference, but I would have expected a more drastic change. On one hand I wish I could get good measurements in room as it would make it easier to compare with the equipment room damper open/closed. On the other hand, that would mean more noise in my theater, and I have quite enough of that already smile.gif

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post #1284 of 2002 Old 09-12-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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An update (sort of). Mostly I'm cruising AVS because I can't talk myself into starting work on the theater at 9:00 at night.

I've decided to go with the disk lights for the four lights above the seating. While they don't dim as low as I would like, I haven't been able to find anything close to the same height. This will let me keep my coffer very low profile, so I still get the visual interest, without losing the headroom. I'll probably order dimmers the first part of next week. I'll probably wait until I get the dimmers installed before I put the GE up on the 'bay.

Next, I talked to Ted yesterday morning. He actually called me back. You just can't beat their customer service. After taking about it for a while, and about the measurements we've seen, we feel like it's either the fan, or we've got some sort of turbulence at the inlet of the fan. I'm planning to pull the duct loose at the T and see how that affects the noise. That will leave me with about a 1' of duct connected to the inlet of the fan. If I'm still hearing the noise, I'm going to pull the fan out in preparation for replacement. While I've got it out, I'll hook it up and see if it's still making the noise with no ductwork connected. I listened to the fan several times before I put it in, but I wasn't listening for that particular noise. I'll go with a Fantech if I need to replace the fan.

I need to start working on my hushbox design as well. Yet another thing I've been putting off.

On a related note, I'm seriously leaning towards a 14' wide screen. I've run the numbers over and over again, and I believe with an A-lens, I can squeeze out 17 to 19 fl after 25% loss due to age on the bulb. The key to this is being OK with a "good" picture rather than a "great" picture. The Epson 6020 can put out 1,700 (measured) lumens with a "good" picture on the brightest mode. With its best picture, it only puts out around 700 lumens. I think I can live with "good" if I can have an Imax experience at home.

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post #1285 of 2002 Old 09-12-2013, 07:26 PM
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I've decided to go with the disk lights for the four lights above the seating.

I'm planning to pull the duct loose at the T and see how that affects the noise.

I need to start working on my hushbox design as well. Yet another thing I've been putting off.
I think the lighting decision is prudent and reasonable - it would bother me that it wasn't ideal, but I still objectively think you're making a good decision - so, good on ya.

Don't forget to take measurements of the noise with the duct loose. smile.gif

Are you planning for the hush box to be too big, in case of future changes? I have a feeling the Epsons are fairly large already, so maybe most future projectors would fit - but that makes me nervous.


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post #1286 of 2002 Old 09-12-2013, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the lighting decision is prudent and reasonable - it would bother me that it wasn't ideal, but I still objectively think you're making a good decision - so, good on ya.

Don't forget to take measurements of the noise with the duct loose. smile.gif

Are you planning for the hush box to be too big, in case of future changes? I have a feeling the Epsons are fairly large already, so maybe most future projectors would fit - but that makes me nervous.

As of now, I'm thinking I'll only use those lights for "bright" scenes in my lighting plan. That way the dimming won't be as noticeable. In reality, I'm only planning to use them when I need the room as bright as possible.

Don't worry, I'll be measuring it. I told Ted I'd send him the info as well for future reference.

As far as the hushbox goes, it will likely end up fairly large. I have to accommodate an A-lens and automated slide as well. I think rather than trying to build it to fit tightly and worry about ducting the inlet and exhaust, I'm just going to leave myself plenty of space. I have general ideas ATM, although I have drawn a box the same size as the PJ in Sketchup. It's a start, right?

Now that I think about it, I imagine it will be tough to design a generic box just due to the location of the inlet and exhaust on various PJs. ATM, I'm thinking of putting the inlet and exhaust of the box at the back because the inlet and exhaust on the 6020 is at the front. If I change PJ's, it's very likely the inlet and exhaust will be in different locations necessitating a revision to the box anyway. I'm open to suggestions!

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post #1287 of 2002 Old 09-12-2013, 08:25 PM
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JPA - what would your throw distance be with the 6010 to fill that size of screen?


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post #1288 of 2002 Old 09-12-2013, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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JPA - what would your throw distance be with the 6010 to fill that size of screen?

Around 18' I believe. Keep in mind I'll be using an anamorphic lens with this setup. That actually puts me on the short side of the zoom range which gives me a few more lumens.

Fred, here's a rough idea of what I have in mind. I don't see any need for the internal "baffles" to fit so closely to the PJ. It's was just easier to model. The openings in the back are large enough for two 70 mm fans. Thoughts? What are your plans for a hush box?


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post #1289 of 2002 Old 09-13-2013, 05:19 AM
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My plan is to steal yours!


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post #1290 of 2002 Old 09-13-2013, 05:50 AM
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My plan is to steal yours!

 

Love it!  :-)



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