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Dedicated Theater Design & Construction > The Plains Theater
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 09:45 AM 04-15-2014
I know a lot of HK amps have this ability and use jumpers to connect the in and outs to each other. I'm not sure about all AVRs but it was just an idea I had. An external amp is still a great solution, I was just trying to utilize the amp channels in the AVR if possible.

J_P_A's Avatar J_P_A 10:09 AM 04-15-2014
Sounds like a great idea. If I end up with an AVR that will let me do this, then I'll jump on it. I would much rather use the extra channels of amplification to drive a horn sub or something!
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 10:44 AM 04-15-2014
For subs any decent subwoofer is going to require more power than any AVR will do.

The Berlinger iNUKES are popular options for sub amps with some addition benefits; the value DIY crowd seems to really like these.
J_P_A's Avatar J_P_A 12:02 PM 04-15-2014
I was referring to the Sherbourn amps I picked up a while back. I was thinking using the AVR to drive as many of the surrounds as possible freeing up more channels of my Sherbourn amps. I think they claim 550 W driving all channels into a 4 ohm load. IIRC those horn designs require less than that to reach crazy levels. It was just a thought.
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 12:08 PM 04-15-2014
You want something like a europower or iNUKE for subs. Think 2000 or 4000 watts.

Subwoofers take power.

The idea of overpowering is in case you need it as it improves dynamics. You won't actually send all that power to your fronts or rears but it won't hurt having it. The high efficiency waveguides like the SEOS have good power handling and great dynamic range but they are also capable of high output so many just won't use them or listen that loud.
J_P_A's Avatar J_P_A 07:13 PM 05-06-2014
Well, I'm going to admit to yet another boneheaded move on my part. When I started pulling my speaker wire, I had to go dig through the ever growing pile of theater related stuff to find the cable I'd ordered months ago. I thought I'd bought some 10/2 for the subs, but couldn't find any and figured I'd made a last minute audible and decided to go with 12/4 wired in parallel (I'm sure you can see where this is going). The last time I was in the basement, I found that 10/2 I thought I'd ordered.

D'oh! I'm actually better off with the parallel 12/4, but it's still wasted money. I may try to get the 10/2 in the room for some of my alternate sub locations, but I seriously doubt it will fit in my conduit.
doublewing11's Avatar doublewing11 07:53 PM 05-06-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Well, I'm going to admit to yet another boneheaded move on my part. When I started pulling my speaker wire, I had to go dig through the ever growing pile of theater related stuff to find the cable I'd ordered months ago. I thought I'd bought some 10/2 for the subs, but couldn't find any and figured I'd made a last minute audible and decided to go with 12/4 wired in parallel (I'm sure you can see where this is going). The last time I was in the basement, I found that 10/2 I thought I'd ordered.

D'oh! I'm actually better off with the parallel 12/4, but it's still wasted money. I may try to get the 10/2 in the room for some of my alternate sub locations, but I seriously doubt it will fit in my conduit.

10-2 would definitely work a tad bit better but not as much as you think. Why not use the 4 conductor 12-2 to locate two subs to each run? I ran two runs of 4 conductor 12-2 for four subs running 1850 watts max at amp end. By the time it hits subs you're down 140 watts due to resistance. Believe me, four 18's will be all that's needed! eek.gif

Seriously, you won't be pushing that much watts with multiples. Stressing over an easy fix?
J_P_A's Avatar J_P_A 05:17 AM 05-07-2014
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I actually pulled 4-12/2 to each sub. So the effective resistance will be lower than a 10/2. I also have really long runs at 50' or better for some of them.

At this point it's more the frustration that I wasted the money than anything else. That spool of wire would have paid for a surround IIRC. I'll find a use for it, though. No worries.
TMcG's Avatar TMcG 05:48 AM 05-07-2014
Aside from a small re-work of the dead vent lines and now an extra bit of speaker wire (which you could always resell), I'd say you are close to perfection in the "not wasting money" department, especially given the scale of your project.

I actually need to buy some wire for my sub runs, so perhaps I could buy your extra. PM me if interested with what you have. I am guessing that I will need anywhere from 150-200 feet for the four UXL-18 subwoofers going into my theater.
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 06:05 AM 05-07-2014
You are saying you run 4 way (2 negative and 2 positive) 12gauge wire ? But use all four strands for a single run ? I thought electric signal would only choose the shorter of the run as a signal path. Is that really more effective than a fatter single wire run ?
doublewing11's Avatar doublewing11 07:43 AM 05-07-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I actually pulled 4-12/2 to each sub. So the effective resistance will be lower than a 10/2. I also have really long runs at 50' or better for some of them.

At this point it's more the frustration that I wasted the money than anything else. That spool of wire would have paid for a surround IIRC. I'll find a use for it, though. No worries.

I'm in same boat.......after much consultation, 12 AWG was reaching my limits.......I too have several 50+ foot runs. In reality, not doubling up 12 gauge wire works in my application. I beat myself up wanting 10 AWG, but in the end, 12 AWG works.....
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 09:57 AM 05-07-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

I'm in same boat.......after much consultation, 12 AWG was reaching my limits.......I too have several 50+ foot runs. In reality, not doubling up 12 gauge wire works in my application. I beat myself up wanting 10 AWG, but in the end, 12 AWG works.....

Actually 12 gauge more than works. It's easy to "want" something or think you need it but there is little science behind 10gauge vs 12 gauge in runs under 50ft and speaker wiring applications. 14 gauge is actually ok. 10 gauge is complete overkill unless your trying to run speakers in a neighbors home down the street. Length effects things certainly.

I would be curious to see some science or data comparing shorter runs with 16 gauge vs medium length runs with 14 gauge vs very long runs of 12 gauge and 10 gauge. My guess is the shorter 16 gauge run would perform best, follow by the 14 gauge medium run. The longest gauge would sound worst, or perform worst and there would be no substantial difference between the 12 guage and the 10guage. I'm just guessing though. I don't actually know this.

I brought up this issue and question because I am designing where I want my AV closet to go. My options are the back, the side wall, or the front wall. My room is wide (24/25feet wide) so I have enough room to put it on the front screen wall and not take away anything. This would lead to convenience of seeing my components; right now my Denon AVR is behind me in my current set up and I constantly find myself looking back to see if the video I am playing on the HTPC is in Dolby Digital+PLII or DTS-HD etc.. or not. This is not displayed on screen. This leads me to want to be able to see my components from the viewing seat. I can make a magnetic cover of black cloth or a door that can close when I don't want to see the lights- I can even automate it. Or they make black out stickers - there is plenty of options to make sure the lights don't bother me when I do not want them.

The idea of shorter speaker runs is attractive to me and makes me seriously consider putting the AV equipment in the front of the theater. It seems easier to deal with the lights and the noise than the super long speaker wire runs and interconnect cables. My theater is going to be 36 feet long, so I would rather give up 3 feet in front for a false screen wall and AV closet, than put the AV rack 36 feet away in the back of the room- which means that my subs and my LCR probably have 50 foot or greater length runs on them after bends and routing through soffits and so on...

The middle ground is to put the AV closet and rack outside the room (but I see nothing which I think I want to see my equipment and show it off ) or put it on the side wall. Side wall but flush to theater wall seems to be the best option. But this also complicates the sound proof effort if I cut a hole in my wall to flush mount the front of my AVR and amps, server, and anything in my rack. That means I need to sound proof the closet, which means double walls and double drywall and GG to keep up with the other walls. Then I need a door to access the closet from the side or back from the other room which totally fawks up my soundproofing again.

I thought such things would be simple but when I think about them they are not so simple rolleyes.gif
TMcG's Avatar TMcG 10:24 AM 05-07-2014
@Mfusick - it's called "insertion loss" and the effect is real and measurable. Here's a good article to explain the calculation and recommended run length, given the resistance load of the speaker: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge
cw5billwade's Avatar cw5billwade 11:35 AM 05-07-2014
from the article linked above
Quote:
I personally run 10AWG speaker cable for all of my audio systems in the Audioholics Showcase home. The only issue here is this cable tends to be hard to work with and terminate. 14/4 cable is another good choice that is easier to terminate and has an effective gauge of 11 AWG.

This is what I did for my LCR I ran 14/4 and terminated both pairs together. I am running about 35-45' from the media closet in the billiard room.
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 12:34 PM 05-07-2014
I might do 14/4 I think. I never thought of that. It would give me option to bi-amp, or run extra something in the future too easily. Interesting idea. I like it.
TMcG's Avatar TMcG 12:39 PM 05-07-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I might do 14/4 I think. I never thought of that. It would give me option to bi-amp, or run extra something in the future too easily. Interesting idea. I like it.

This is what I am running to all of my speakers, the Canare 4S11, which is 14 gauge 4 conductor wire that has a combined aggregated gauge of 11 if you are combining conductors. Gives you the option to biamp, internal shotgun or combine the conductors for each and every speaker. And if you are in a pinch, you could always jumper a bi-wired speaker and borrow the extra set of conductors for another speaker instead.
HopefulFred's Avatar HopefulFred 01:09 PM 05-07-2014
That's what I ran. I'll consider splitting them up if I decide 14/2 is enough and I want height or wide channels, and now I already have wire in place for splitting my side surrounds into arrays. Pretty slick, IMO, plus it's less cable to pull.
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 01:20 PM 05-07-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

This is what I am running to all of my speakers, the Canare 4S11, which is 14 gauge 4 conductor wire that has a combined aggregated gauge of 11 if you are combining conductors. Gives you the option to biamp, internal shotgun or combine the conductors for each and every speaker. And if you are in a pinch, you could always jumper a bi-wired speaker and borrow the extra set of conductors for another speaker instead.

Thanks for the link. I will try to book mark this so I don't ask you again for it tongue.gif
cw5billwade's Avatar cw5billwade 11:53 AM 05-08-2014
got mine from monoprice
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 12:14 PM 05-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cw5billwade View Post

got mine from monoprice

14/4 you mean ?
J_P_A's Avatar J_P_A 09:18 PM 05-16-2014
My 12/4 came from monoprice and my 10/2 came from parts express.
doublewing11's Avatar doublewing11 09:26 PM 05-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

My 12/4 came from monoprice and my 10/2 came from parts express.

What's your opinion of the Belden 10 AWG? I wanted to use the 10 AWG but was worried about pulling two runs through 1" snurf tubing.

IMHO, quality of Belden compared to my Monoprice inwall 12 AWG was not close.......curious on your thoughts.
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 06:39 AM 05-17-2014
Belsen is much better ? Cost difference ?
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar BIGmouthinDC 06:40 AM 05-17-2014
Oxygen free copper (OFC) is dumb and can't read the brand label on the insulation. It could care less how good the insulation looks.
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 10:54 AM 05-22-2014
The cost is in the copper, and then in the MFG margin. I'll try to maximize #1 and minimize #2. Thanks.
J_P_A's Avatar J_P_A 03:55 PM 07-03-2014
Well, a bit of an update. I finally have lights! Yep, that's right. I finished wiring up my overhead lights (with the exception of my screen wash lights) and my dimmers. I don't have my keypad installed yet, so I can't really program them to do anything. I'm sure it would have been amusing to watch me run back and forth between the dimmers on the back side of the room near the breaker box all the way around to inside of the theater 30 times while I played with them. Turn one set of lights up, run to the theater. Run back and turn some down, run back to the theater, rinse, repeat

I do have one dimmer connected to my MLV transformer for my LED strip lights that may have an issue. It's a RadioRA 2 dimmer, and the status LEDs on the front are flashing on, off, on then they dim and go off, then it repeats. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the dimmer, or a problem with the transformer, or maybe just because the transformer is not yet connected to a load.

And the jury is still out about the lights in the center of the room. When I turn on all the soffits lights (minus the screen wash lights) the room is pretty bright. Granted it's a gray ceiling and white walls, but I was surprised at how bright it is in there without the center lights. They do make a difference, but I'm not convinced it's worth the trouble of keeping them. I may need to prime the walls and see how the affects the room.
HopefulFred's Avatar HopefulFred 05:15 PM 07-03-2014
You have more than lights, you have envious readers - envious readers with no pictures! I think that puts you pretty squarely "well ahead" of me and my build. While I have a few speakers, you have a door, fully configured HVAC system, and lights. That's pretty awesome.

I suppose you have looked at things like this, regarding setup and the flashing lights? http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocum...ary/048247.pdf I don't know anything about this, I just googled and it came up. Maybe no help at all.

And I agree that you need to get some pigment on the walls before you make any judgment about the usefulness of the lights in the middle of the room.
NicksHitachi's Avatar NicksHitachi 08:35 PM 07-03-2014
Hmm so let me get this straight....

You have 12AWG(20A Lines)feeding the amplifiers and you need 10AWG to feed the INDIVIDUAL speakers?

Ive run all gages in normal lengths(<100') 8,10,12..... Save your money and use 12ga for anything under 100'. Youll never hear the difference.

However, this IS how Monster Cable made their money, selling snake oil 10awg speaker wire and $50 rca cables... lol.

JMHO.
Mfusick's Avatar Mfusick 08:41 PM 07-03-2014
+1

I thought it was this thread we talked about this ? But it might have been Tim's thread or beasts thread.


Tim posted a link with data and testing basically showing what I said; under 50ft you only need 14gauge.
J_P_A's Avatar J_P_A 11:12 PM 07-03-2014
HF,I didn't think anyone would be interested in pictures of lights, but I should know better by now As far as being "well ahead," I would like to point out that i still don't have a floor in half my room. Either way, I am glad to be making a little progress again.

The #10 wire is for subs, the #12 is for everything else, although I am using some 12/4 for some subs as well, but that's another story. I don't disagree that #12 is more than enough for LCR and surrounds, but I would like to point out that the current is much different on the line side of the amp than it is on the output. You're fighting I^2R losses, so the lower the voltage, the higher the current, and the larger the wire necessary to reduce the power loss.

Interesting that cabling comes up again. I managed to pull some more wire tonight. I actually got five #10 /2 and one more 12/4 pulled into the first conduit that I gave up on a while back. That finishes off the wiring in my riser. The only thing left is to decide if I want to prewire for ATMOS overheads. If there was concrete guidelines it would a simple decision. As it stands, no one seems to know where they need to go.
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