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post #1561 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 08:18 AM
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There's nothing wrong with overkill

10gauge is overkill for sure. But if it's not that much more money, makes you happy with piece of mind, and is likely to remain a long time why not go a little extra ... I was recently debating some speaker wire at PE for direct burial vs mono price stuff at half the cost. I splurged on the better stuff because even though it was just outdoor speakers my rational was the labor to dig a trench, and then remove and reinstall patio bricks was a three day manual labor job in 95degree heat. The labor of ever doing it again far out weighted the cost aspect. I wanted to just do it right and never worry about it. Extra cost was ok, compared to the actual task it was insignificant. I only used 14 gauge though... Lol
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post #1562 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you saying #10 is too large for a sub?

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post #1563 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
There's nothing wrong with overkill

10gauge is overkill for sure. But if it's not that much more money, makes you happy with piece of mind, and is likely to remain a long time why not go a little extra ... I was recently debating some speaker wire at PE for direct burial vs mono price stuff at half the cost. I splurged on the better stuff because even though it was just outdoor speakers my rational was the labor to dig a trench, and then remove and reinstall patio bricks was a three day manual labor job in 95degree heat. The labor of ever doing it again far out weighted the cost aspect. I wanted to just do it right and never worry about it. Extra cost was ok, compared to the actual task it was insignificant. I only used 14 gauge though... Lol

I do the same thing. If I am going to do something that will take all day or a lot of money to redo, I just go the overkill route because it will be cheaper in the long run and keep me from thinking about it all the time. This is the only scenario that I can think of that I would go against your signature.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #1564 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 09:12 AM
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Are you saying #10 is too large for a sub?

Better to go too big instead of too small. I would be more concerned about safety than signal loss. You don't want your wires heating up because they are too small for the amperage that you are pulling from them. Better to have a smaller breaker and bigger wire than have a bigger breaker and smaller wire. That would be against code anyway.

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post #1565 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure we're all talking about the same wire I pulled some #10 speaker wire for my subs, not Romex to the outlet.

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post #1566 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 09:23 AM
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Always better to go with larger gauge, especially with longer runs or if possibility running 2 ohm loads. Wattage loss from source to sub could be significant with longer runs........as much as 200 watts ie 1-2 db's.

As far as heat.........really insignificant.......for the most part 90% of time you'er only running 400 watts at most..........besides, dynamic peaks don't last long enough to build up heat due to wire resistance.

BTW, JPA........Happy 4th of July!
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post #1567 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes! Happy 4th guys! So far it's a really beautiful day down in these parts.

doublewing, that's why I was wondering if we're all talking about the same wire. Heating isn't going to be an issue and as far as I know the inspector isn't concerned about the low voltage stuff. I thought we all may have gotten our wires crossed..... See what I did there
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post #1568 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Yes! Happy 4th guys! So far it's a really beautiful day down in these parts.

doublewing, that's why I was wondering if we're all talking about the same wire. Heating isn't going to be an issue and as far as I know the inspector isn't concerned about the low voltage stuff. I thought we all may have gotten our wires crossed..... See what I did there
I would agree that #10 is overkill for speaker wiring, unless you have really long runs. But as someone's sig line says, "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing..."

If/when anyone finds out where to prewire for Atmos overheads, call me collect! My framing is still open, so I should probably make some sort of provision for that, if I can. On the other hand, I don't want to perforate my soundproof shell for something that may never happen...
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post #1569 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by LeBon View Post
I would agree that #10 is overkill for speaker wiring, unless you have really long runs. But as someone's sig line says, "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing..."

If/when anyone finds out where to prewire for Atmos overheads, call me collect! My framing is still open, so I should probably make some sort of provision for that, if I can. On the other hand, I don't want to perforate my soundproof shell for something that may never happen...

Atmos layouts have been published already. Who knows if they will stay in that configuration though.

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post #1570 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I've seen the ATMOS layouts, but nothing specific enough to actually locate speakers. Have I missed a layout somewhere? Could you post a link or even one of the layouts? My questions are how wide to put the speakers in relation to the seats? How far forward and behind? What about multiple rows? Do we treat overheads the same as side surrounds when there are multiple sets?

For my cable runs I felt like I fell well into the "long" runs with some of mine at over 70'. I'd guess the shortest was around 25' and most runs around 50'-60'. Better safe than sorry

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post #1571 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBon View Post
I would agree that #10 is overkill for speaker wiring, unless you have really long runs. But as someone's sig line says, "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing..."

If/when anyone finds out where to prewire for Atmos overheads, call me collect! My framing is still open, so I should probably make some sort of provision for that, if I can. On the other hand, I don't want to perforate my soundproof shell for something that may never happen...
Now, now Lebon........if you were following my thread you would know definitive answer is coming!

Putting joking aside, Triad will get back to me next week with specific details with how, where and what. The higher ups at Triad are in communication with Dolby concerning Atmos for residential.

Patience my friend......I'll copy and paste memo/email I receive from Triad and sent via pm.
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post #1572 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 11:18 AM
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Atmos layouts have been published already. Who knows if they will stay in that configuration though.
This is partially true.......generalizations have been published.........detailed/specific info is forth coming.
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post #1573 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Yes! Happy 4th guys! So far it's a really beautiful day down in these parts.

doublewing, that's why I was wondering if we're all talking about the same wire. Heating isn't going to be an issue and as far as I know the inspector isn't concerned about the low voltage stuff. I thought we all may have gotten our wires crossed..... See what I did there
I assumed low volt wiring was discussion point...........anyhow, I can verify 12 AWG low volt wire is fine.....

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post #1574 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
I do the same thing. If I am going to do something that will take all day or a lot of money to redo, I just go the overkill route because it will be cheaper in the long run and keep me from thinking about it all the time. This is the only scenario that I can think of that I would go against your signature.
It's like paying extra for insurance just in case. Probably and hopefully don't need it, but will be glad if you do that you have it.

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post #1575 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 11:54 AM
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I'm not sure we're all talking about the same wire I pulled some #10 speaker wire for my subs, not Romex to the outlet.
I am talking about the same stuff yes.

10 is more than enough for speaker wire. 12 actually is enough for 100 foot run. Nicks point was that why in the world would you need speaker wire fatter than the power line bringing power to your amps on a dedicated 20 amp line. It's a good point. You don't. But if you want it then I won't object. 12 is enough, but 10 is overkill and I like overkill.

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post #1576 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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……... Nicks point was that why in the world would you need speaker wire fatter than the power line bringing power to your amps on a dedicated 20 amp line. It's a good point. You don't………...
This is only true if the amp is driving the speakers at 120 V.

Since we're making this analogy based on nominal ratings, let's assume your amp is driving a load at 2,400 W, which is equivalent to the 20 A input at 120 V (2,400 W = 20 A x 120 V). Assuming you have a 2 ohm load, your amp has to be driving that load at nearly 35 A. Clearly there's a difference between the input current and the output current.

Is that a big enough difference to worry over? Probably not, but my point is that you can't just say a #12 is good for the line side, so it has to be good for the amp side.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #1577 of 2038 Old 07-04-2014, 02:46 PM
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How about the bass solution ? Any headway there ? What are you thinking you want to do ?

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post #1578 of 2038 Old 07-05-2014, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
This is only true if the amp is driving the speakers at 120 V.

Since we're making this analogy based on nominal ratings, let's assume your amp is driving a load at 2,400 W, which is equivalent to the 20 A input at 120 V (2,400 W = 20 A x 120 V). Assuming you have a 2 ohm load, your amp has to be driving that load at nearly 35 A. Clearly there's a difference between the input current and the output current.

Is that a big enough difference to worry over? Probably not, but my point is that you can't just say a #12 is good for the line side, so it has to be good for the amp side.

With V=IR i get 30A but that wont happen because amps arent 100% efficient and neither are speakers .... And even if they were thats a heck of a speaker to take all that on one line.

Either way we all agree, you have some cusion there on the wire size which is the best route.
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post #1579 of 2038 Old 07-07-2014, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Any suggestions on the preferred way to build columns? I'm going back and forth between building the columns and then hanging them in the room, or just attaching them directly to the wall.

I think building them on the wall will be easier. The only advantage to building them first, and then hanging that I can think of is I would be able to take them down later. I can't say that seems like a big advantage, and I don't think that would justify the extra effort.

Thoughts? I'll start on columns as soon as I finish with the decking on the riser….. which will probably take a while

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post #1580 of 2038 Old 07-07-2014, 02:47 PM
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The only other thing that occurs to me is with trim and fasteners. If you want to build them elsewhere, you need I account for whatever will secure them as well as something to hide the inevitable gap at the top (assuming the underside of the soffit?).
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post #1581 of 2038 Old 07-07-2014, 02:59 PM
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Believe it or not, but you can easily get a friction fit tight enough to hold a three-sided finished column against the wall which slides over wall-mounted vertical strapping. It's also easy to make with a jig to get a consistent, tight fit.

The other "attached but removable" alternative uses Velcro on the edge which will be hidden by acoustic panels and whatever else butts up against the sides of the column. Only four or five pieces on the wall-facing edge of each side has plenty of holding strength. If you need the cleanest look, the alternate Velcro mounting method is to attach a separate piece of strapping on the inside sides of the column that, when put against the wall-mounted strapping, gives you two flat surfaces that will hold the Velcro in opposition. I am taking this approach with my columns because I will be preserving access to the RGB LED lighting and the alabaster bits.

Most importantly, neither method will rattle.
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post #1582 of 2038 Old 07-07-2014, 11:42 PM
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I thought about making my columns removable or at least the center inserts to be removable. In the end I went with attached to the wall. I figured the flexibility would be nice to have but I would probably never use it.


This is how I framed mine:

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The Moving Pictures Theater Construction Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1462881/th...ruction-thread

Houston GTG - Summer 2014
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-are...l#post26079610

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post #1583 of 2038 Old 07-08-2014, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Any suggestions on the preferred way to build columns? I'm going back and forth between building the columns and then hanging them in the room, or just attaching them directly to the wall.

I think building them on the wall will be easier. The only advantage to building them first, and then hanging that I can think of is I would be able to take them down later. I can't say that seems like a big advantage, and I don't think that would justify the extra effort.

Thoughts? I'll start on columns as soon as I finish with the decking on the riser….. which will probably take a while
JPA, you can build quality columns in a weekend! When my cabinet maker said it would take another 5-6 weeks to build then when home show was to start in a week and one-half........well, had to get in shop and burn the midnight candle!

Just rip full 4X8 sheets of whatever wood species you want and build three panels using Keg jig. Use 2x4's or 1x4's for blocking which is attached to back of column. Only need two blocks for backing. Back edge of column use neoprene tape for dampening.

You can dress up front anyway you want with trim.......I chose 6/4 Knotty Alder and use dado blade to make 1-1/2 x 1-1/2" L shaped edge trim.

Cabinet maker wanted $4500........but I was able to finish all 7 columns for less than a grand.
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post #1584 of 2038 Old 07-08-2014, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback, guys! Another consideration is the amount of wiring I have in my columns. Each column will have at least one speaker and one receptacle. Some columns will also have a smoothing sub in the bottom. I'm planning to use removable fabric panels on the front to allow access……..

I (believe) I pulled the final speaker wire last night. I had two rather long pieces of 12/4 left over from running wire for my mains and surrounds, and I thought it would be a good idea to prewire for tactile transducers. I got one of those 12/4 cables in while I was pulling those 10/2 in a few nights ago. Last night I decided to try that last 12/4 in the other conduit. After quite a bit of wrestling with it, I finally got it in the conduit as well. So now I have wire for transducers to both the first and second row.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #1585 of 2038 Old 07-08-2014, 09:10 AM
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Do you want transducers ? Or is it just in case ?
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post #1586 of 2038 Old 07-08-2014, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Just in case. I'm pretty sure the theater I went to and saw T4 had buttkickers in the chairs, and it was an interesting effect. Not sure if I'm sold on it or not, but it's a lot easier to wire for it now than later.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #1587 of 2038 Old 07-08-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Thanks for the feedback, guys! Another consideration is the amount of wiring I have in my columns. Each column will have at least one speaker and one receptacle. Some columns will also have a smoothing sub in the bottom. I'm planning to use removable fabric panels on the front to allow access……..

I (believe) I pulled the final speaker wire last night. I had two rather long pieces of 12/4 left over from running wire for my mains and surrounds, and I thought it would be a good idea to prewire for tactile transducers. I got one of those 12/4 cables in while I was pulling those 10/2 in a few nights ago. Last night I decided to try that last 12/4 in the other conduit. After quite a bit of wrestling with it, I finally got it in the conduit as well. So now I have wire for transducers to both the first and second row.
In my area, by code low volt is ok to have removable structure but not high voltage wiring. In each rear columns I have two 20 amp circuits......one Speakon for sub, and one 12 AWG wire for rear surround. As long I we showed inspector column was screwed into wall, ceiling and floor we were good to go. My columns are sitting on blocks top and bottom attached to ceiling and floor along with wall.......of course each piece is dampen with neoprene tape.

BTW, I like TMcG's idea for columns but wouldn't fly with my inspector.
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post #1588 of 2038 Old 07-08-2014, 09:49 AM
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Just in case. I'm pretty sure the theater I went to and saw T4 had buttkickers in the chairs, and it was an interesting effect. Not sure if I'm sold on it or not, but it's a lot easier to wire for it now than later.
Want cheap buttkickers? Build on TJI floor joists!!!

Tactile feel is real!

Other day, the guy who helped me build room last year couldn't believe floor was moving!

TJI at 16OC plus 1-1/8" ply plus two more layers of 3/4" ply sandwiched between GG and 3/8" Serenity Mat and another 3layers of 3/4 ply sandwiched with GG......well, he was shocked! Yes, floors move and WOTH is amazing on that riser!
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post #1589 of 2038 Old 07-08-2014, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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In my area, by code low volt is ok to have removable structure but not high voltage wiring……..

Good point. I'm still leaning towards permanent attachment to the walls. I don't see myself ever needing to remove the things. It's not like I'll need to relocate them, because that would require redoing fabric panels, trim, etc. I suppose the question now is whether it's easier to build the three-sided box and then attach it to the wall or is it easier to just frame it up in place. I'm thinking about starting with attachment points like AVTexan shows above. Then working out from there.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #1590 of 2038 Old 07-08-2014, 10:18 AM
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In my area, by code low volt is ok to have removable structure but not high voltage wiring.
There is a way around this to make it code-compliant. One is that you run the Romex through a rigid plastic conduit and surface-mount it to the wall. Flexible conduit covers and slight bridge between the end of the pipe and the back of the electrical box.

The other option I have seen used is to run the Romex through the wall and into a permanent plinth (base) for the column that houses the receptacle. Not an option here at this point of your construction, but thought I'd throw it out there FWIW.

I'll be using this second option for my theater, running the high voltage through the walls and coming out into a permanently mounted plinth and terminated with Trufig receptacles with matching wood cover plates.
TMcG is offline  
Reply Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

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