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post #1681 of 1969 Old 07-16-2014, 12:05 PM
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I've never understood the spec to put GG between layers for the riser. For the front stage holding subs.....yes...you're cutting off vibration from entering the slab at the source. For the riser with seating, maybe there are some trapped LFE waves in the riser that radiate the decking like a low-tuned drum based on the amount of surface area /size of the riser. I think I'd prefer a little rumble/shake to the seats vs. whatever acoustic trade-off some scientific instrument can measure.
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post #1682 of 1969 Old 07-16-2014, 12:21 PM
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I've never understood the spec to put GG between layers for the riser. For the front stage holding subs.....yes...you're cutting off vibration from entering the slab at the source. For the riser with seating, maybe there are some trapped LFE waves in the riser that radiate the decking like a low-tuned drum based on the amount of surface area /size of the riser. I think I'd prefer a little rumble/shake to the seats vs. whatever acoustic trade-off some scientific instrument can measure.
I too had this feeling. I went back and forth on it. I see a lot of the DIY audio guys doing subs in the riser for that near field brutality and "shaking" but I was never certain is was the right path. It seemed like a possible way to introduce unwanted extraneous noise and rattles too. Building the riser solid seemed more intelligent.

Building a riser solid without GG is possible though, so I am undecided on that. I'm not sure I am smart enough or knowledgeable enough to really say if GG between risers layers is good, bad, needed or not. I am pretty sure if you build the riser solid it wouldn't matter much though. If you used something like PL premium instead of GG between the layers it probably would function more like a double thick single layer, so that might be an option if you want a little shake without too much squeaks or compromise the rigidity. A thicker layer (technically two layers bonded) should have more mass and a lower resonant frequency I would think. Sometimes I wish I really knew this stuff, I know just enough to be dangerous and know I don't really know
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post #1683 of 1969 Old 07-16-2014, 12:34 PM
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I've never used Green Glue between riser layers - ever. The high cost of Green Glue vs. dubious benefit also comes into question.

I had specifically asked that my riser be used as a Helmholtz Resonator, so I think the amount of 'trapped' vibration will be nil since my entire riser is being turned into a giant port, tuned to 43Hz (based on the size and dimensions of my riser). Personally, I am gluing and screwing the decking with 1.5" screws in the field and 2.5" or 3" screws through both layers and directly into the underlying joist.

That brings me to a point....JPA....mark the center of your joists in the front vertical of your riser and the back wall. Use two screws and string line to create your joist line when screwing the second layer. Saves a lot of 'oops'.
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post #1684 of 1969 Old 07-16-2014, 01:25 PM
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....mark the center of your joists in the front vertical of your riser and the back wall. Use two screws and string line to create your joist line when screwing the second layer. Saves a lot of 'oops'.
Good tip!

I'm on the fence about needing much of anything between riser decking layers, to be honest. I used the GG, since my riser functions the same as a stage, but I just did it without questioning. Would I regret not using anything? Only if it squeaks...

I certainly don't see the point in using GG as well as adhesive, but whatever.

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post #1685 of 1969 Old 07-16-2014, 02:08 PM
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post #1686 of 1969 Old 07-16-2014, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, you guys certainly have me second guessing the GG. So I suppose the other option is to apply PL between the layers similar to how I would apply GG?

The only advantage that I've heard to using GG is you supposedly end up with a very dead sounding riser. I really didn't question it when I was buying GG. Now, I can see what laminating my ply together might be more of a concern than dead sounding foot falls.

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post #1687 of 1969 Old 07-16-2014, 03:05 PM
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I do think the GG helps to deaden the sound. I can't compare it to proper adhesive, but I can tell you that I don't think I can tell the difference between the riser inside my theater, which is currently 2x 5/8 T&G OSB with GG and the riser outside, which is 3x 5/8 T&G OSB, no adhesive or GG. What is plainly different is the riser sections I have filled with sand. They're like stepping on concrete - no reverberant sound at all.

IMO, if you have the GG, use it.
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post #1688 of 1969 Old 07-16-2014, 04:53 PM
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I agree I don't think GG would be a bad thing.
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post #1689 of 1969 Old 07-16-2014, 06:53 PM
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IMO, if you have the GG, use it.
True, but if you could sell your extra and recoup some costs, that might not be a bad thing. Just a thought.

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post #1690 of 1969 Old 07-17-2014, 02:50 PM
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True, but if you could sell your extra and recoup some costs, that might not be a bad thing. Just a thought.
It can't be worth that much, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. Is it ?

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post #1691 of 1969 Old 07-17-2014, 03:04 PM
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It can't be worth that much, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. Is it ?
Guess it would depend on how much you have and how much you value you time. A bucket, probably. A couple tubes, maybe. The stuff you scrapped off your shoes, tools, arm hairs...well.

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post #1692 of 1969 Old 07-17-2014, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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The Green Glue? It's about $200 per 5 gal bucket. I'm certainly going to try to sell what I don't use. I'll wait until I'm completely finished, then I'll see if anyone wants it. There's a local guy that is/was planning a theater. I may check with him to see if he wants what I have.

EDIT: I think I've got two full buckets and one partial left. So if I don't do the riser, I'll probably end up with at least one full pail left.

Right now I'm leaning towards putting PL down around the seams on the first layer, and then a few beads out towards the center. Then putting a ton of screws into the second layer.

After further inspection, the riser has a couple creaks and pops in a few places. Interestingly enough, I think they are from my intermediate blocking hitting floor. I think after the riser was framed, the wood dried and blocking lifted up a little off the floor. Not sure if it's the blocking that moved or the joists. It's so small a movement that you don't notice it, but I can a hear little click when I step in a few places…… I hope I don't scrutinize everything else in this build this much……. It was bothering me quite a bit at first, but walking around the rest of the house and I hear clicks and pops on hardwoods, too. I've never noticed those before.

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post #1693 of 1969 Old 07-17-2014, 03:18 PM
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When you add a second layer it will beef everything up and make it heavier. You probably be ok.

Are you thinking of PL premium the second layer to the first and then screw it too ? Or just screws ? PL would make it act as a single layer if you used that instead of GG.

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post #1694 of 1969 Old 07-17-2014, 03:27 PM
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If you're going to glue it....glue it. You probably already know this, but put a bead around the perimeter and fill the field with back and forth zip zags, no overlapping necessary. Screw on a 16" grid for 'normal' fixation, 12" grid in beast mode. Forget about the Green Glue altogether.
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post #1695 of 1969 Old 07-17-2014, 03:35 PM
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The Green Glue? It's about $200 per 5 gal bucket. I'm certainly going to try to sell what I don't use.
I'm pretty sure you can return it. At least that's what John told me when we were overkilling the order - better to have more & return some than to run out. I probably have enough extra clips to do a small room.

 

 

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post #1696 of 1969 Old 07-18-2014, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm pretty sure you can return it. At least that's what John told me when we were overkilling the order - better to have more & return some than to run out. I probably have enough extra clips to do a small room.
Good idea! I may go that route if I can ship it reasonably.

I need some feedback from the collective on how to frame my wainscoting. Here's a render. Sorry, I'm not as skilled with TMcGoogle Sketchup. My version gets a little crazy when the lines aren't straight



My gut feel to this is it's WAY overbuilt. I was planning 2x framing on 16" centers across the wall, then just a rain across the top, bottom and halfway up. Would 1x be a better choice? Given the choice between ripping more 1x's and just using 2x's I'll probably use the 2x's. I know it costs a little more, but it saves a lot of time. If I got this route, I could also build my columns, set them up, then build the wainscoting around them and have have a place to attach my columns that doesn't take up space inside the column. Of corse, the other option there is to just build the columns and put wainscoting between them.

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post #1697 of 1969 Old 07-18-2014, 06:10 AM
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Way overbuilt. Heavy too with 3/4" MDF. But I usually don't complain about things being overdone .

1x and 1/2" MDF would be more than enough I'd think. I actually find it easier to work with the heavier wood though.

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post #1698 of 1969 Old 07-18-2014, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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It's definitely over built, but like you said, it's easier to work with the heavier wood. Trying nail or screw through 1x's can be frustrating, and I'd rather not spend my time pre drilling holes.

I'm open to suggestions for different ways to frame this up, though. This is just what came to mind given a stack of 2x's. I suppose I could use actual 1x4's rather than ripping 2x4's. I've never framed anything with 1x4's, so I don't know how that would go.

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post #1699 of 1969 Old 07-18-2014, 07:03 AM
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Is 8 and 3/4" a design goal, or simply the way it comes out?
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post #1700 of 1969 Old 07-18-2014, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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My acoustic treatment plan is currently in flux, but I suspect I'm going to need more than 2" by the time it's all said and done. I don't know just how much yet, but I think 8" is at the upper end of what will be needed.

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post #1701 of 1969 Old 07-18-2014, 08:46 AM
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I hate to appear contraian on the riser issue, particullarly considering I suggested the adhesive.. however I'll do it anyway ..

I'd put the adhesive only near/in/around the seams (3-4" wide) where the scant sheet was cheated.. if there is a concern for the amount of edge bearing or possible squeaks due to extra spacing in the tongue/groove area. You'll know approximately where the seams will hit on your top sheet, hold back the GG in a 6" wide area when applying to the back of the 2nd sheet, apply the adhesive in the area around the seam and drop the second layer in place...

Why GG???... Maybe I'm fully wacked in my theories but the secret sauce in the "broadband riser" is a combination of both the Vents (where everyone seems to focus) and the construction of the risers top and sides.. Commonly the reoteric says "No.. dont create a helmotz" "too hard to predict".. "very narrow absorbtion range".... all true.. but the vents we cut in create exactly that ... openings to a cavity in a high pressure area.. a helmotz.. no? But lets look at the riser as resonant/panel absorber also, its a very large panel it will resonate tempatically (sp?) with the wave front.. The resonant frequency of a panel is determined by the mass and airspace... the "Q" of this absorber is determined by the dampening and cavity absorbtion. A stiff panel (ie no dampening) will be far more "peakish" in its absorbtion range than one thats damped.. look at limp mass absorbers.. it takes alot more energy to keep the panel moving becasue its so well damped... The more you can dampen the panel (top of riser), combined with the absorbition in the cavity increases the effective range of frequency making it "broadband", and less likely to over absorb in a frequency where you dont necessairly need it.

Lets also look at some well known Designers approach to the top of a riser... 3 layers of 5/8 .. i dont belive this is done to get the additional 1/4 " of mass, as compared to just 2 layers of 3/4.. this is done to get the additional dampening layer.. further increasing the effective range for the "broadband absorbtion" and to mitigate the the peak resonance.

I believe the riser construction is "low hanging fruit" particullarly in the LF areas for the first couple of primary modes where your other options would take very very thick absorbers covering your walls...

This is only what I believe, ... I'm Ok with being wacked on this theory... and would like to hear alternative explanations on why/ how broad band absortion is acheived with a riser.

Apologies JPA for cluttering your thread.. I guess that was far more long winded then necessary... I coulda just said:

+1 on the GG...

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post #1702 of 1969 Old 07-18-2014, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think this is cluttering at all! I'm glad to hear to more input. It's keeps me thinking.

I will say that I'll go either with PL or with GG. Only because I don't want to run in science experiments with them mixing. My guess is that there would be little to no reaction between the two, but I'd hate to find out the hard way.

The big lesson to learn here is don't work when you're tired. If I had been fresh when I started laying the decking on my riser, I may not have had this problem. As it was, I was too tired to think clearly, and now I'm trying to fix a problem that I should never have had to begin with

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post #1703 of 1969 Old 07-18-2014, 07:06 PM
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Does seem way overbuilt.

I've seen some threads where the wainscoting or other hard surface wood in the room was angled towards the floor slightly, presumably to help with reflections. Doesn't seem very mainstream, though. Dennis revealed it on a couple of his turnkey builds, and a guy from Norway did it on his, but I don't see it recommend much and wonder why. I'm doing a redesign with all fabric walls, so it won't apply to me anymore.

 

 

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post #1704 of 1969 Old 07-19-2014, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
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I need some feedback from the collective on how to frame my wainscoting. Here's a render. Sorry, I'm not as skilled with TMcGoogle Sketchup. My version gets a little crazy when the lines aren't straight

TMcGoogle® Sketchup modification:


I'd switch the upper 2x2 brace to a full 2x4 and use a vertical 2x4 flat to the back of the MDF between the floor cleat and the upper horizontal 2x4 where two pieces of MDF must butt together and form a seam. This is about as simple as you can make it.

If you feel comfortable with a bit more structure, you could run a vertical 2x2 or 2x4 every 16", gluing on the back and screwing from the front where your panel mold will hide the screw head.
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post #1705 of 1969 Old 07-19-2014, 07:17 AM
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I will say that I'll go either with PL or with GG. Only because I don't want to run in science experiments with them mixing. My guess is that there would be little to no reaction between the two, but I'd hate to find out the hard way.
PL premium can bond butter to soap, some idiot on youtube proved it. He froze a stick of butter and bonded it to soap, let it cure 24 hours in fridge and then tested it. The bond remained and the butter failed upon separation testing ... Lulz.

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post #1706 of 1969 Old 07-19-2014, 07:21 AM
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Does seem way overbuilt.

I've seen some threads where the wainscoting or other hard surface wood in the room was angled towards the floor slightly, presumably to help with reflections. Doesn't seem very mainstream, though. Dennis revealed it on a couple of his turnkey builds, and a guy from Norway did it on his, but I don't see it recommend much and wonder why. I'm doing a redesign with all fabric walls, so it won't apply to me anymore.
You mean the top is slightly out more in the room and the bottom is in more, with the idea of supporting reflection more down towards the floor and not at listeners?

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post #1707 of 1969 Old 07-19-2014, 07:57 AM
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It's definitely over built, but like you said, it's easier to work with the heavier wood. Trying nail or screw through 1x's can be frustrating, and I'd rather not spend my time pre drilling holes.

I'm open to suggestions for different ways to frame this up, though. This is just what came to mind given a stack of 2x's. I suppose I could use actual 1x4's rather than ripping 2x4's. I've never framed anything with 1x4's, so I don't know how that would go.
For something like this I don't think it matters too much from a structural perspective. More important is probably simplicity for ease of construction, and that would include a nice area to screw into. I'm not a fan of having to perfect my position to hit a tiny target. Big targets are more forgiving which is why the bigger wood and over done build is probably easier actually, it's worth the small cost of wood.

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post #1708 of 1969 Old 07-19-2014, 08:58 AM
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Just for another opinion... I'd do it like TMcG drew out, but I'd probably use glue and finishing nails at the top edge. Start with the ledger board on the wall, then the top screwed down into the ledger. Then the floor and face. You might also consider reversing the overlap of the face and top boards, nailing the top down into the face, but that would depend on the finishing and molding you want to use.
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post #1709 of 1969 Old 07-19-2014, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I like TMcGs idea as well. I'm thinking I may substitute a 1x4 for the 2x2 and as HF said put it on top of the MDF at the front. I like it. I was originally trying to keep from putting anchors in my concrete, but I'm not sure there's any real reason not to. It would only need a handful of them anyway.
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post #1710 of 1969 Old 07-19-2014, 09:30 AM
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I'm sure construction adhesive would be fine.
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